Let's talk about the economy

Forza Motorsport Forza Motorsport (2023) Discussion
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The long story short is that I’d like to enter a suggestion, but I have a lot of ideas and thought it might be worth having a discussion here first, collect some feedback and ideas, and then make a suggestion with less chaff and more broader appeal.

So I’m gong to expose the problem, then offer some suggestions, and then let’s talk about it.

The problem, in one sentence

The game simply isn’t designed to support players buying parts, and my credit balance is definitely feeling it.

The problem, in a lot more sentences

Hi. You chose to read the long version. Don’t blame me for it.

The game was designed with the idea you wouldn’t pay for parts. Then, the upgrade system was widely panned as a terrible idea, and parts are now available to buy for credits. This is a significant change for the economy, and yet it hasn’t been rebalanced.

Indeed, now that I can actually buy a car, prepare it, and then drive it (in that order, i.e. the correct order), I notice my credit balance is taking some serious hits, and the reason is quite clear.

There are only three sources of credits in FM23: races, leveling up, and UGC (user-generated content, i.e. liveries, decals, tunes) rewards.

UGC rewards aren’t exactly viable for most players. It is a very capitalistic income source: you have to offer something other players are looking for, and while talent certainly matters to a point, there is still a great deal of luck required to have your creation picked over others.

For the majority of players, races and leveling up will be the only income source.

When all you had to buy was (virtually) all your cars, with a price point up to 500k, minus manufacturer discounts, this was an acceptable balance.

However, you have more things to buy now.

My builds are mostly focused on platform, handling, transmission and aero upgrades. Overall, the cost of such an upgrade is higher than on FM7 or FH5. I’m fairly certain it is in the absolute (race tyres are the most expensive upgrade outside of conversions and turbo upgrades) more expensive, but more importantly any upgrade will be much more expensive relative to income because FM7 and FH5 simply have a lot more ways to give you credits and cars so the cost of upgrades is almost trivial.

For reference, grinding for Car Points is not a viable alternative income stream. Let’s not rehash why that system was a bad idea, but there is a reason people asked for change.

I will also freely admit that I paid real money for a game and its content, I’m mildly amused when a game isn’t allowing me to access the content I’ve paid for at my pace, which is what makes the economy problem a problem and not just a slight inconvenience.

The suggestions

So here is the bunch of ideas aforementioned. Most wouldn’t be sufficient on their own to rebalance the economy, but they can combined for that purpose.

  • Option 1: Increase payouts. Races and driver levels could simply payout more. The increase could be either flat, or proportional to driver level.

  • Option A: Update part prices. There are a lot of parts that could be cheaper, like tyres, and maybe a few parts that could be more expensive, like engine swaps.

  • Option Beta: Update CP-to-CR exchange rate. More CP for less credits.

  • Option Gimel: Remove Car Points completely. Car Levels would then payout credits instead of CP, creating an extra source of revenue that is more global and usable than per-car CP rewards.

  • Option Tha: Daily or weekly payout boosts. E.g. flat reward for completing a career series or tours; income multiplier for finishing the first X multiplayer races; income multiplier for completing the first X rival laps. This would also encourage players to come back, without creating fear out missing out.

  • Option Ssangdigeut: More free cars with Forzathon. Free cars are cars you don’t have to buy or that you can sell for an extra source of income. This could be the perfect opportunity to bring back fun little Forzathon challenges.

  • Option Soou: Commodify Car Points. Putting CP into a common pool instead of a per-car pool would allow players to offset the cost of future upgrades. Being able to sell unused Car Points would have a similar effect, though less user-friendly.

  • Option VIII: More granular car discounts. Instead of a 5% discount for a level 50 car, give players a 1% for every 10 levels of a car. Having 5 level 50 cars would then be equivalent to having 50 level 10 cars, which I would argue is more brand-loyal. This would make access to car discount easier, thus lowering the general cost of acquiring cars.

  • Option Four coils of rope and two cattle hobbles: Global car discounts. Instead of a manufacturer discount, have a global discount. Leveling up any car would apply a discount on all cars and not only on cars of a specific manufacturer. This would be helpful for brands with only one or very few models where the current discount model isn’t really applicable.

  • O9 The Option Saga: Auction House. This allows players to sell and buy cars for profit (or not).

  • Nuclear option: Allow players to obtain infinite credits through a special menu item. This would allow players to opt-out of the economy entirely, and would remove the need of rebalancing.

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In before someone says that prices of cars and parts are already low enough even though I stopped playing this game before parts could be bought with credits because I had to grind mindlessly just to buy a car to progress in career mode.

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To be fair, the prices of cars in this game (FM23) are the lowest they have been in any of the series. Expensive low production rarities like the '62 Ferrari GTO were typically set over 1 million credits in previous installments are now under 200k.

I rarely do multiplayer, so most of my earnings have been from single player races and rivals. My driver level is 880 and I have 11 million + in credits. I don’t own every car, but I can buy what I need, when I need it without issue.

Even before the changes, the only struggle was the amount of time it took to level cars to upgrade. Now, if I buy the upgrade points, it takes maybe a couple of races or a few laps in rivals to make that money back.

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This is a good approach. When posting the final suggestion(s) in Economy / Progress remember to use a clearly stated subject line and post one specific idea per topic (not just “the economy”) rather than a list or combination of ideas. In this case each of your bullet points would be a separate topic for tracking and implementation purposes.

Your Auction House bullet for instance is already available for voting:

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Yeah i mean its not only the cheapest its ever been, but you also get like 10k worth of parts for free per short race just from leveling the car.

In my experience i typically just buy race tires, brakes, arbs, and transmission in order to enjoy a new car. Usually only comes out to 20k which is less then a 15 minute race(at least with vip bonus). Unless im setting a new car up for MP in whoch case i just max its PI accordingly

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i feel like some cars are to similar in their pricing model witch makes the game feel very tedious incosistent & not rewarding they need to separate a near match or similar prices it feels like an after thought and rushed just how I feel about the cars pricing in the game i know I’m not the only one who feels this way the universe is to big for only :point_up: person to feel this way

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Am I the only one with a ton of cars, all built and 15,000,000 credits to burn?

Before I could buy CP I felt like I had too much money, at least now I have something to spend it on.

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I wouldn’t think so i have over 20m cr I’m careful with my spending to reduce the grind

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I may not have mentioned it earlier, but I do have 28 cars level 50, over 200 in total. Plus the 11+ million in credits. I also have a bunch of car pass cars that I haven’t needed to use up to now. I definitely had more credits prior to the change in upgrading, but I’ve never been below 10 million since passing it.

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Nicely Done! o7

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@NeubaumTurk_HK About that Ferrari GTO, I’m pretty sure I didn’t buy it in FM7, and I definitely got it free in FH5. So it is actually more expensive on FM23. And again, between all the free cars, the wheelspins or other bonuses, the value of a credit in previous games was quite different.

@DTDeschain2535 I don’t consider grinding for CP to be a viable alternative. I prepare a car before I race it, not the other way around. This was the prime criticism of the CP system.

@ClosingBadge7 My problem is I don’t want to be careful with my spending. I have expensive ideas for fun, and it irks me when a game I’ve paid real money for says no.

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I’m more of a casual player and I never have enough credits. Cars appear to be cheap or sensibly priced but car parts not so much. Would be nice to get cash back on parts you don’t use anymore (unless they sneaked that bit in already).

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The game’s economy has been completely shaken up by the changes introduced with the purchase of CPs. In fact, it would be a good idea to adjust it to match our earnings and our spending, by giving a little credit, a little value, to our vehicles and our parts.

For me, however, it’s the other way round. I find the prices ridiculously low, even before the update to version 6. With a VIP pass, you can make a fortune very quickly. Perhaps it’s the VIP pass that will further accentuate this imbalance.

But there you have it, several tens of millions of credits, enough to buy the one I want and improve it as I please, the life of a millionaire. I feel like there’s nothing I can’t afford (in this game, of course)!

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It certainly does not feel difficult to buy and upgrade cars in this game. I remember having to grind for ages in prior Forza games to get some of the more expensive cars. Here, I just buy whatever I want when needed.

Would need some analysis of cost compared to previous games but, even with the cost of parts now included, I’d be surprised if this wasn’t one of the easiest Forza games on which to acquire cars.

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@CurriedCat Would the ability to sell unused Car Points, or to use them to upgrade other cars, cover that base?

@Shaadum59

I feel like there’s nothing I can’t afford (in this game, of course)!

But is that a bad thing?

@Jezza14

Comparing to FM7, I think both games have a similar base race payouts. I think the cost of a full upgrade is roughly equivalent, though some parts I use most (i.e. race tyres) I think are a bit more expensive in FM23, while others I don’t use much (i.e. engine swaps) are cheaper.

As resources coming in, FM23 then has the 35k level up reward, with the two free cars a month you can unlock. Cars don’t exceed 500k.

For FM7, you first have to account the payout boots you can get from cards, or from a few selected cars. Level up rewards are either up to 50k, or a discount on a random car (I believe always greater than 50% off, at least usually of a greater value than 50k). FM7 Forzathon challenges that would unlock rewards, usually (but not always) cars.

The cost of cars was generally higher, up to 1.5M, though this could be lowered by using the Auction House.

For FH5, between wheelspins, the Forza Shop, the Auction House, the weekly playlists, miscellaneous unlocks like barn finds and mastery rewards, not to mention player gifts, you do get a lot of stuff. Cars are more expensive, if you’re buying them at all. Personally, I didn’t buy a lot of cars above a million in that game, maybe a couple dozen at most.

Accounting for all the payouts and rewards, honestly I don’t see how FM23 compares favorably.

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It would go some way but then again I don’t but loads of cars.

The worst part is when you are trying to complete one of the time limited series and have to buy several cars, often expensive ones, upgrade them and then dump them after 6 races for the next car. Often the reward cash doesn’t cover the costs of buying and upgrading a car nor the cost of the next car.

I don’t have VIP this time and without that and the boost cards of FM7 income is really limited.

Wonder how many player with large cash pots have been leveling up AFK?

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Not really. Especially since I paid for this privilege, so nothing to complain about.
In any case, this opus does not focus on the car collection but on targeting a few models to evolve. With this in mind, I am content with the vehicles required for the current events, a few models that make me dream, I will probably not go looking for 100% of the models in my personal garage. But all these cars for so little leave me with a bitter “unprecious” taste… and yet I would be frustrated if it was stuck behind aberrant grind.
Let’s say that all in all, it’s rather positive for the player, especially for the one who has the VIP.

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I wasn’t talking about getting cars free (via wheel spins), I was talking about what the listed cost was in the showroom across all games. Not everyone got the GTO via a wheel spin, that was luck on your part.

The showroom prices for all of those “uber rare” cars like the GTO, California, Shelby Daytona, etc. have always been over 1 million. Now they are a fraction of that cost.

I’m honestly glad the free car every level up is gone in FM23, I never liked it in any of the previous games, and when it comes to FH5, it’s an annoyance that only gets worse once you have all the available cars anyways.

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I’d note the GTO in FH5 was a Barn Find, i.e. free for all the get. But for the general argument, a straight comparison of absolute sticker prices is missing half the picture.

Having cars for free does matter. I bought maybe a couple dozen of cars worth over one million, and the rest just fell into my lap through wheelspins or weekly rewards.

And the totality of payouts also matters. If you think in terms of gameplay time, you’ll get to a million quicker in FH5, or even FM7, than FM23.

In a nutshell, cars are a fraction of the cost, but you also get a fraction of the money. And I don’t think the ratio in FM23 is more favorable than in FM7 or FH5.

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We should get every cars + every part of the game at the start of the game.

EDIT : And this obviously for free