Yes it is a nightmare as Sim mode is very twitchy… so, if you have quite a heavy wheel weight, you cannot catch a slide.
I find this is worse with powerful cars, not so bad with lesser road cars.
Best advice I saw on Youtube was to use Sim for slower cars, as it does make you a lot more careful with corner entry speeds (more realistic), and use Normal for S class and above… or unstable RWD cars.
I find Normal to be about the same as 50% Stability Control… way too arcadey.
Unfortunately, as FM7 is clearly an arcade game designed for consoles and controllers, there is no happy medium…
…PROJECT Cars for example has 10 or more levels of TC, ASC, and ABS, so it is easy to find the right balance between difficulty and realistic challenge. (And of course, albeit off-topic, it has 120 levels of Ai difficulty (vs just 3 or 4 in FM), so I usually find myself in between 2 ! And, finally, there is no rubber banding in PC2… Ai drive same lap times all the time.
TL;DR For me, using a wheel, Normal steering is essentially working like Stability Control and I find it all but impossible to spin out the car. And, ultimately, Forza is best played on the sofa in front of a massive TV, with a controller; whereas, proper sims (together with their dynamic weather and accelerated time scales), deserve a wheel and cockpit.
And all of them are complete BS. No game reproduces real traction and stability control, they are completely off. Games just throw more traction under the wheels. It is near impossible to reproduce all this FPGAs and bunch of other systems, which are used in reality for this purpose.
If you think that in Project Cars or iRacing cars drive exactly like in real life, it is not true. They are a way off from reality, several times off. For example, Le Man prototypes in iRacing require 1.5 more space to brake in comparison to real life, and you can’t brake inside the turn which is completely opposite to real life.
I am fairly sure that the reason sim steering seems unrealistic is because you are using a controller. The controller has a joystick that has about 120 degrees of movement in a very small motion range. That is excessively small for someone to be using a very fine steering input method like sim steering. This is something that neither of you two above seem to be accounting for. The problem is that your overdoing the counter steer because the precise movement required has such a minute and specific position that it is very easy to go well past it causing your car to “sim twitch” the other direction. Watching myself over the years via replays while watching the control inputs made it clear as day that every time I sim twitch spun myself out it was because I had over corrected and that is because I was using a joystick rather than a wheel.
You can’t see it in the replay because that shows the final input to the car, not what the controller was doing. I’ve watched the steering wheel using cockpit view, while driving, and there is no doubt at all that sim steering causes steering inputs that don’t match what I’m doing with the controller, in particular the violent oversteer correction. I’m sure you can learn to work around it, though.
I did read the entire thing. If your talking unrealistic your talking with a controller. You said unrealistic hence my post. If you were talking with a wheel the proper term to have used is broken. Pretty much everyone in the know knows that wheels are more or less broken per the examples given on the 4th page.
The final input is the exact same as the controller input on sim from everything I have seen as it appears to be a raw 1 to 1 translation. Thus your presumed “I’m not doing that” is very likely you not realizing how much input your giving.
I checked this out yet again last night, using cockpit view, just to be 100% sure, and the final input is absolutely 100% definitely not the same as the controller input using sim steering. You still have speed sensitivity and you still have temporal filtering for starters, those two effects are really easy to see.
Your conclusions might be true, however using steering wheel animation as a reference (in cockpit view) or front wheel angle as a reference (in 3rd person view) is not recommended, since animation is generally separate from input in any game, and while in Forza games animation is informed by input, it simply is not correct. Haven’t tested the telemetry view now, but I remember it being somewhat broken a few updates ago. To test actual input, you would want to consult the telemetry view (if it is working correctly), as it would give you the closest representation of how game is interpreting it.
Sensitivity and Linearity settings will also affect both how game interprets input (and how it is shown in telemetry view and how the animation is controlled).
Also for PC there is an option to disable/enable gamepad filters for steering wheel profiles in FM7. You should investigate if that setting has any effect.
Uhh, no. There have been just as many posts saying that sim steering on a wheel is perfectly fine as there have been posts saying that it’s broken. Idk, maybe your wheel sucks, maybe your settings suck, but the point is that there are people out there who are driving with a wheel with sim steering on and having no issues. So that means the problem is on your end.
People are way too quick to dismiss aspects of this game that are somewhat difficult, saying that they’re “impossible” or “broken”, when really they just haven’t learned how to handle them yet. People “in the know” know that this game’s physics are more manageable than they’ve been in any other Forza game, and that wheel compatibility is better than ever.
There are two separate issues here. The first one has to do with whether generating new FFB is considered modifying the game behavior and second has to do with a question whether simulation steering is working the way it is supposed to work.
Regarding first issue, here are some facts:
Since June update Forza Motorsport 7 officially supports DATA OUT feature which sends packages of information which among other things contains some data about the current physics state of the game. DATA OUT feature and the data that is sent using it is available for EVERYONE.
Turn10 has stated that this data can be used for any purpose, which means that it can also be used to generate FFB effects if one wishes to do so (in fact the original purpose of that data was to operate motion sim rigs, which is quite similar to FFB).
Anyone can write software that interacts with FFB capabilites of devices, in fact Microsoft itself provides several APIs which allows to communicate with any controller devices and when applicable to their FFB implemenations in a standard way.
Since FM7 is sending data that can be used for any purpose and since it is not prohibited to communicate with your devices the way you see fit, it follows that you can use the data sent by FM7 as a basis for calculating FFB effects that are sent to your devices. None of the steps in this process requires modifying executables, any other files that are part of FM7 package, accessing and modifying game memory, so it is fair to say that the behavior of game is not modified in any way, so it is neither a mod or hack.
Now if your saying because of this 3rd party software which generates new FFB, people become more competitive than those who don’t use it , then you might have a point. However as far as I know, as long as any game supports more than one controller model, there will always be advantage or disadvantage depending on the controller you’ re using. So for example, even if you use the FFB generated by FM7, the same effects will feel entirely different on your Logitech Driving Force GT and on your DirectDrive wheel, with latter exhibiting much faster and stronger forces while receiving the same values. As a general rule, the better steering wheel / pedals etc. you have, the more advantage you get in racing games. The difference is that 3rd party tool like Forza EmuWheel is available for everyone and is completely free. Whether you want to use it or whether you feel like it is making you more competitive is up to you.
Now regarding the second issue of simulation steering and whether it is broken.
It is clear that input is treated differently by FM7 (and in fact all Forza games which support both simulation and normal steering) depending on which steering setting you have set in game options.
There is no way to actually prove that simulation steering is broken, as it would imply that we know what is it’s intended behavior, which we don’t (doesn’t mean that it is not broken though).
Usually people try to support their claim that simulation steering is broken by appealing to how it feels when using a FFB capable device which generally results in quite frustrating experience for a lot of people. However just because the combination of those two elements results in experience that is sub-optimal, does not immediately allow us to decide which one of them is to be blamed, and it is also possible that both of them are problematic.
What we can conclude though is that for a lot of people combination of simulation steering and game FFB is not satisfactory and hence it is warranted to claim that this combination is broken.
The results of the new FFB generated by Forza EmuWheel suggest that the problem most likely is with the generation of FFB effects by the game. and not with physics calculations or steering mode, since EmuWheel uses the same physics data that game is presumably calculating FFB from but can provide a satisfactory experience even when using simulation steering.
Input data is clearly important factor when generating FFB, however it is neither the only one nor arguably the most important one.
The most likely case is that there is a problem with how game generates actual FFB effects, which is felt less when using normal steering (as it filters your input and generally makes it more smooth and limits the range of it in certain scenarios), but becomes a real problem when using simulation steering, which means less or completely unfiltered input.
So in conclusion there is little if any evidence that simulation steering is broken but quite a lot evidence that generation of FFB effects (and not the physics themselves) have a flaw which is amplified and becomes a problem once you enable simulation steering.
As a matter of fact, yesterday I was discussing about Forza EmuWheel with a friend of mine, who has an Accuforce V1 DD wheel.
My friend doesn’t play Forza, but he plays several other racing games, including Project Cars 2, Assetto Corsa, rFactor, and a few others.
He told me that his Accuforce wheel comes with a software that does exactly what EmuWheel does, i.e. the Accuforce software ignores in-game FFB and generates new custom FFB based on the raw datas available from the game. And the software can do so with basically each popular racing game. Of course the Accuforce software also offers the option to use the in-game FFB if the user wants to, and it even offers the option the mix in-game FFB with custom FFB at any ratio chose by the user e.g. mix 30% in-game FFB with 70% Accuforce custom FFB, if the user wants to.
In the sim racing community, I don’t think that Accuforce wheel users are considered like “cheaters” or “hackers”.
You really still can’t wrap your head around it can you…
The is no such thing as wheel physics, physics are physics and believe it or not it doesn’t mater what input device you use the physics are the same.
Simulation steering does not suck.
Changing the FFB is not hacking, if it were hacking there would be no such thing as FFB settings to begin with, because if you change settings and it makes the game easier/more natural then that’s hacking apparently.
You really can’t wrap your head around the fact that i was speaking in layman’s terms about all the different settings involved with the wheel can you…
Can you use Emuwheel on XBox? No…
Does Emuwheel come with Forza? No…
Does Emuwheel change the way the game plays from how it plays standard? Yes…
Is changing a game from standard referred to as modifying it? Yes…
Is modding short for modifying? Yes…
Are people modding Forza games on PC with Emuwheel, which is a 3rd party program, to make it more playable? Yes…
Would people be resorting to 3rd party programs if there wasn’t something wrong with Forza? No…
Are these problems with Forza apparent when people are using Simulation Steering? Yes…
Could it be said that all of the above is because Simulation Steering sucks? Yes…
Is it fair that if you were competing against someone, that they could be using mods to make the game easier?
What’s the point in engaging in discussion with you, if you just keep repeating the same things over and over again even when every point you made have been addressed. Sure you might not agree to everything that is said about it and this would allow the discussion to actually go somewhere. Just for the sake of clarity here are some comments to your statements.
Can you use Emuwheel on XBox? No… <<< You are completely right, but does it prove anything? There are quite a few wheels you can use on PC to play FM7 that you can’t use on XBox.
Does Emuwheel come with Forza? No… <<< You are completely right, but does it change anything? Does your wheel and pedals come with Forza?
Does Emuwheel change the way the game plays from how it plays standard? Yes… << Yes and no. It changes the way your wheel responds. Since the physical wheel is not a part of Forza game, it follows that EmuWheel does not directly affect the game. It is true that it affects the game indirectly, because of how your wheel reacts. However this is true even when EmuWheel is not used, but instead two different wheels are used to interact with FM7. Depending on motors strength and agility, the gameplay will be affected, even though both pieces of hardware receive the same FFB values.
Is changing a game from standard referred to as modifying it? Yes… << True. Does it apply here? If you still insist that it does, then just pick a standard controller and everyone who uses something different is by your very own admission modifying the game.
Is modding short for modifying? Yes… << Can’t argue with that.
Are people modding Forza games on PC with Emuwheel, which is a 3rd party program, to make it more playable? Yes… << True. So do people who use DirectDrive wheel instead of cheap 180 degree wheel without FFB.
Would people be resorting to 3rd party programs if there wasn’t something wrong with Forza? No… << True, FM7 has quite a few flaws. Ideally there should be as few as possible, but almost all games have flaws. You can argue that FM7 flaws are more serious, considering it is a racing game, but it is entirely different topic.
Are these problems with Forza apparent when people are using Simulation Steering? Yes… << True. But this observation by itself doesn’t prove that simulation steering is the cause of the problem. Besides there are different kind of problems when using Normal Steering. So it is never as easy as just avoiding Simulation Steering. People keep going back to it because they clearly realise that there are some advantages to this compared to normal steering.
Could it be said that all of the above is because Simulation Steering sucks? Yes… << Well , one can say almost anything on the internet, but does it really make sense?
It seems things need to be repeated around here, because people are either thick in the head, or just can’t admit when they’re wrong… & no, not me, i’m right. lol
Anyway, doesn’t seem like i need to bother arguing about this anymore, as it looks like i won’t be using my wheel for a while now, so i will no longer be getting frustrated trying to use it.
I have developed Infraspinatus Tendonosis in my rotator cuff muscles in my shoulders, as well as bursitis issues & using the wheel is hurting my shoulders. ;(
Hopefully i can get them going again properly, as i’d much rather be using my wheel, than using the controller, but sadly i have no choice at the moment.
Even if controller + normal steering feels so good & the hand brake is much easier to get to, it sux looking at my cockpit just sitting there not being used.
Might have to play it tomorrow once or twice, just to test out FH4 though. evil grin
I’m not sure I understand the contribution you bring to this discussion. Regarding what EmuWheel does, you seem to either imply that I don’t understand what EmuWheel does (while actually being the author of the app), or that I understand what it does, but I am somehow misleading people saying it’s fine when in fact it is a mod / gives unfair advantage. To make any of these cases you would have to be at least as informed as I am about the problem and also the particular solution. Are you? If not, then you’re just being stubborn.
Secondly, while I think most people would wish you a quick recovery from your health issues, It is not entirely clear how your personal health issues contribute to the discussion of simulation steering in Forza games? What is the point of mentioning them? Unless you can make your personal story somehow relevant to others, i’m sorry to say this - but no one really cares.
The only thing you can actually deduct from this is that the force feedback sucks. Not sure why you are blaming simulation. The only thing simulation does is reduces all the input smoothing and makes it more 1 to 1 with your actions. Thus your actions are bad because the ffb is bad and is not properly explaining what the car is doing. All emuwheel does is fix the force feedback to how forza should have done it with the output supplied by t10 to give the end user a better understanding of what the car is doing.
I understand ur complaint is actually that this isn’t a level playing field because xbox users aren’t able to do this, there’s 3 options, force t10 to fix it using your purchasing power, get a pc, dont use a wheel use a pad which I believe is still faster than a wheel even using proper ffb because of how t10 has dumbed down the controller so much, especially via normal steering.
No, it doesn’t change the way the game plays at all, it doesn’t alter the physics or instantly make you a better driver, it’s just giving you FFB information to help you better understand what the car is doing. Its still all up to the player skill as to what can be done.
The game is not being changed in the slightest, it’s a change in the tactile feedback hardware outputs, like already mentioned above, people don’t get labeled cheats or hackers by simply making the most of their hardware.
oh man, WHO KNEW!..
no we are not modding the game, see above…
If something is wrong with forza and is apparent with sim steering, but making better FFB greatly improves the experience, don’t you think that it’s the FFB that is the issue not the steering setting?
The only thing in forza I really accel at is drifting, on the suzuka drift 102 rival I have (or had havnt checked last couple days) the RWD and hardcore World Record, using EmuWheel. The thing is I only like to use 900DOR for drifting so it is necessary to use emu to improve the FFB to make it possible to do on 900 Degrees sim steering. Is the score impossible for others to reach with ought EmuWheel? Absolutely not, because most of the other top drifter using wheels use much lower DOR to make it easier, is that hacking/modding? They made the game easier for themselves by altering the hardware…
Buy Forza 7 - Play Forza 7 - Use Simulation - Feels disgusting & is barely drivable.
Buy Forza 7 - Use “3rd party software” to change the FFB Settings of the wheel (Make a modification to the existing game (MOD)) - Play Forza 7 - Use Simulation - Feels amazing & is hella fun to play.
Can you see what’s going on here?
Forza 7 on Xbox with simulation, is ridiculous, I would use much harsher words, but I’d get in trouble.
Forza 7 on PC with mods on the FFB is amazing.
Therefore, Forza 7 (STANDARD for the simpletons) is broken.
But yes, I agree, why the hell doesn’t someone like Blue work for Turn 10, what sort of monkeys do they have working on this game???
