As someone whose played Forza Motorsports titles religiously I would say sim steering isn’t only for wheel users. For me, on a pad, on every game sim steering is easier on a pad. You can and HAVE TO make more precise inputs and do a lot more steering with your throttle but you get used to it. I lose a spin about once every blue moon but that’s realistic I would say, I’m no Schumacher. I went with a wheel for the end of Forza 3, start of Forza 4 (fanatec porsche something wheel and clubsport pedals), but didn’t like it so went back to controller. It didn’t feel anywhere close to real life driving and I was much more precise on the controller so I switched back.
So, one of my tricks sometimes when I get too much oversteer is I’ll apply a little bit of brake and gas at the same time, and this often straightens it out without cutting into my time much.
Info dump
Forza 3 used normal steering for both controller and wheel, controller users may have complained they wanted no filters on their input IDK, what I do know is that having used a 900 degree wheel on forza 3 is that it was broken. I and a few others at least (it was a minority of people that had 900 degree wheel and an even smaller minority that noticed the issue) had complained about it on the forum in desperate hope for it to be fixed, but it never happened. I even received a ban from the forums trying to tell a moderater that the bug existed because many people told us there is nothing wrong.
Roll on forza 4, with the newly added simulation steering it seemed to be the response to both complaints
Key points here, controller stick speed (steer snoothing/buffer) from lock to lock was adjusted for controllers (barely noticeable), max steer angle for all cars was updated and finally sim steering was added.
Take not of the highlighted parts, there were very few aides on the wheel, this is very important and I’ll come back to this later.
Now when we got our hands on the demo many of us were excited to try our 900 degree wheels without the bugs that plagued FM3, but the bug was still there an both normal and sim steering.
Shown in this video here
Again many came to the forum to report the bug was still there but it wasn’t until inside sim racing reported it that it actually gained traction and got some attention, here @20:28
T10 finally released a patch to fix the bug in simulation steering only, they chose to leave it there for normal steering, you can see a screen cap of the release notes of that patch here @7:40 it clearly reads “this was a mapping bug and not related to normal and Simulation steering”. Once this patch rolled out the complaints about it being too difficult where plentiful to say the least and this is when people started to abondon sim on the wheel and opt for normal.
Now why they didn’t remove it from normal steering as well is a bit baffling considering the bug was unrelated to steering mode, but never the less the bug is now gone in both modes in FM7 which is good.
Now let’s move on to what T10Driver said in the in the FFB thread And in private message to myself and compare that to the original notes about the implementation of sim steering
First the conversation started because I asked this question
The highlighted parts are important 1. Because we know Aaron is somewhat new at T10 and is working of code that was established many years ago and 2. It clearly shown that he wasn’t actually sure what was actually happening between the two.
After a quick investigation he replied with this
By tuning I’m I believe he meant linearity/wheel sensitivity as that was his initial thoughts. So if this is the case FFB and linearity/sensitivity is the same which is what my test have shown.
After some further digging, he replied with this
Now if we read this carefully, there are MULTIPLE systems at work on normal steering and it very clearly says simulation steering turns them off, only INPUT layers are disabled when you use a wheel, and if we look back to the original notes about sim steering it confirms this saying there are very few aides on the steering wheel and by Aaron’s own words, simulation steering will turn these off.
Then we also have another developer T10chris who was working for T10 when simulation steering was introduced, made this statement
I have asked him for more info on the subject as he is still very active on the forum this was posted but I have not yet had a reply
Now in my question about FFB and sim steering I gave reasoning as to why I believed it was important that when testing FFB that Simulation should be compolsury with this post which Aaron liked (yes I stalked him a bit)
And he also replied to me in a private message on the matter
There is a clear difference between the two modes that he is not allowed to talk about, it even says in the ingame blurb for normal steering the it dampens certain aspects of the physics to make driving easier and it has never been said by anyone at T10 that it is bugged, and they never agreed with that conclusion and the fact they test both modes on wheel and gamepad tells me that they are working as designed and has been since the beginning (apart from the 900 degree mapping bug)
Conclusion
I very very strongly believe that Simulation Steering is T10s representation of accurate physics simulation, because of what was said in the very begining, by 2 developers and what all my testing has shown. Is it realistic? That is a matter of opinion but I believe the FFB does let it down and for the most part normal steering behaves more naturally when going over the limit but the downside to it is that it makes every car extremely easy to drive, I mean you can drift an F1/classic open wheeler/race cars with normal steering with ease which is a bit unrealistic, but in turn the difficulty of sim steering I also find to be unrealistic.
Solutions? (other than trying different setting and tunes) use normal or lower DOR or just learn to live with it.
Blue, well written post. I know you have done extensive research on the matter. A buddy and I have found that with sim steering on the cars are much more reactive to tyre temps especially with a wheel. We were trying to figure out why my pad tunes didnt work well for him on a wheel, so we were tuning and hotlapping. I always tuned by feel on a pad while my friend always tuned by the numbers etc. What quickly became apparent was when the tyres exceeded normal operating range (green/yellow) the grip quickly falls off when in simulation mode resulting in tank slappers. However you can use the same tune and the same car and wheel and put it in normal mode and you can essentially drive around with the tyres in the orange/red range with no ill effects. We concluded that they dumbed down the physics and effects of tyre heat in normal mode. This was the only major difference we could find. It also explained why wheel users especially those using sim steering have a hard time with pad tunes. He likes to call normal steering the biggest assist in forza that isn’t considered an assist.
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I found this video showing the difference between normal and simulation steering in FM6:
Is it the same in FM7?
It is the same in every forza title since 4
Blue028, in one of your recent videos, I noticed you were using sim steering. Is it your new preference? Or do you change it up depending on the situation?
I change it up depending on what I’m doing, typically I stick with sim when I’m racing and hotlapping or driving like a nut and I use normal when I’m full on drifting.
Blue028, thank you for the in depth reply. In my opinion, simulation steering should give sim feeling and physics…imagine that. I hate driving on Normal both on pad and wheel. Too easy. I firmly believe this is an issue of just accurate physics in comparison. I know that a lot of the WTC drivers utilize Raceroom for their sims as the driving physics and tracks are modeled perfectly. Regardless, I enjoy the quantity of Forza sometimes, so I play it half. Point is, that the physics are so oversteer heavy and the weight transfers are so quick to get out just letting off throttle even with a tad of throttle and brake at the same time. I find this very inconsistent. I use TC and ABS, but NOT stability. Thus, in tune with GT3 cars’ homologation requirements and realism. I am not overly experienced with tuning of the wheel itself, but I know the basics and cannot get it right.
I am playing around with extremes on the linearity and sensitivity settings. For the record, I am on a 900° wheel.
Just turn your DOR down. As much as you dont want to…
Im surprised Blue still has energy.
Questions:
IF Sim Steering = “True Forza”, Then:
Why is it not forced on for ForzaRC?
Its Esports after all, with large sums of $$$. It should be the best of the best playing the game in the most “accurate” way, right?..
But it isnt. Why?
I dont know, but maybe because
“We mix it up and generally let people use what they’re comfortable with”
And because forza rc from what I’ve seen is all done with gamepads
“Forza is known for being controllable and natural on a gamepad and these system (aka normal steering) are a major component of that feeling.”
Maybe? maybe not? who knows.
I’m dying for T10chris to respond and if he doesn’t soon then I’ve already thought about paying for the membership so I can private message him and hopefully find out once and for all. It’s just from all the official statements that have been made on this topic I can’t come to the same conclusion you have, I’m happy to be wrong, I just want answers.
And yes energy for this subject is deminishing, but I refuse to roll over.
nah that cant be it, otherwise they would allow wheels by that logic, and PC.
You can play the whole thing on a wheel, unless you make it to a live event in which you are forced onto a controller. That isnt mixing things up. You just put that person at a disadvantage.
You dont let anyone join into pro sports, you have to be of a set skill and everyone is on the same level field.
if Sim makes it more difficult by enabling “True Physics for the True Forza Experience”, and Normal has assists as alluded, why would you even allow normal into Esports? its driving half the car for you, and money is on the line.
The normal user under this scenario has an advantage over the sim user as physics are gimped, if what you say is true.
If a normal user makes it to the finals and beats a sim user can the sim user complain? They played it True and the other didnt, right?
All the other assist are forced off, they remove the line etc. Why not steering? Its the only way to enable “true forza physics” after all.
They make sure its all equal by forcing everyone to only play on one set of hardware, even if its not the final live events.
Why not “True Physics”?
Does more difficult always equal more realistic?
By that logic why don’t they force them to use wheels? Because controllers still have assist built in that cannot be removed so why let them use them?
The controller does half of the driving for you regardless (with steering input atleast), sim steering just adds an extra difficulty layer to it.
No, and this could be the logic behind it but who knows. If I where setting the rules and everyone was forced to use a pad I would have done the same.
As we know T10s logic can be a bit weird at time, only they know what their reasoning is.
I know we could argue about this forever, but I don’t want to argue with you Dust, I have a heap of respect for you and everything you do here to help people.
Even if I’ve miss understood what Aaron meant by his post and you are correct that sim=bug, we still have another developer that has made a statement about sim on a wheel that is in disagreement with that, so there are 2 different opinions on the subject even within the dev team
At the end of the day we both have the same solution for those that find sim too difficult/unrealistic and that is to not use it or lower DOR.
Im not arguing at all Blue, I dont have the energy to rehash it over the wheel.
Im purely referring to Chris, You, Normal vs Sim on controller, and statements of “True Physics”, “True Forza”.
If Sim is more than just speed sensitivity, and affects physics, and by default enabling sim = true forza, then by same extension, forzarc at an esports level should force sim steering for “true physics”.
Otherwise, its bs.
And I agree about the wheel and forzaRC. T10 is never going to get esports going in forza when you have controllers and pc excluded. If T10 are to be taken seriously it needs to flip, allow PC, AND force wheel usage, excluding controllers.
You will never get the skilled player pool you really need in its current form, and by extension you will never get the players until you fix the wheel, thus ffb.
Ubisoft had this problem with RB6, they tried to include xbox. In the end to save its esports it ditched xbox, flipped to PC, and now has 30 million registered players.
T10 are doomed by first party loyalty to base hardware, and management.
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Can circuit racing games even be popular for esports?
Yes, but not like T10 is doing unfortunately. T10 are trying to play the middle ground, to which it will never work the way it needs to. (IMO)
I totally agree about the esport thing.
As for true sim or not with sim steering I think I’ve just thought of a way we can conclusively test it.
If the game does what I think it does when we use normal steering and it alters the steer angle based on certain physics conditions I should be able to use that program that let’s you look at numbers and monitor the steer angle from the physics (if that’s possible, I would assume it would be considering that’s how people mod tacos to work), and compare it directly in real time with the raw input from the wheel under certain tests then compare the results from doing the same tests on normal and sim steering. If either of them show anomalies regarding wheel position and steer angle we can determine which one is raw and which one isn’t (or possibly bugged). Not that this is super important but if we can determine once and for all conclusively if I’m insane…
Sometimes I just can’t help it, I like to test
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You cant.
The Data out API doesnt expose enough right now, will it ever? dunno.
Without debug access you wont see the entire picture either, only bits and pieces.
Yes sir. With all due respect, its just you. Maybe your just not talented enough to drive with sim steering. Its not for everyone
Wasn’t talking about that one, was talking about one we’re not allowed to talk about here. I believe this one is what modders have used in the past to get data for use with tachometer and such