There goes one of them hard objective facts @Clutch2009 
There’s always flagging his posts as off-topic.
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This is exactly what I’ve been hoping Turn10 would come out and do. The more they stay silent the more the community festers, we just want to know what their plan is and why it started so bad.
Why was nearly all our feedback from all those surveys ignored? Why aren’t the top problems with this game not being even skimmed over in the monthlies?
I had no idea Kaz said that when GT7 came out but that makes me respect the man even more. Not gonna lie I love the fact that he was able to alleviate players problems creatively while keeping the vision he has in tact. I know he explained that the car prices were due to wanting to respect the cars as they exist in real life. That just shows how much he loves cars and I can get behind that, especially since PD has made it easier to get credits.
I wish Turn10 had that much respect for their fans! Some of us have been here for over 15 years and still support them just to get kicked to the curve! That is why we are pissed that they lied to us and now are keeping silent. SMH
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I guess they doesn’t have the resources to make big changes to the game for a turn around anytime soon.
It can therefore be assumed that no one is working on the AI yet.
Same for the Builderscup career.
Imho they have a tight plan to bring new tracks and cars into the game, very little resources for bug fixing, and no resources for new features. And they are not able to get more resources because the game performs really bad on the gaming market.
It is a downward spiral that can only be combated with the time factor if there is no major investment in additional resources.
With the few resources available, it can be expected that it will take at least two years until the game achieves the desired success. But they have to choose wisely what they working on and what changes they do.
In order to take customers along this path, communication and a road map would be an important matter.
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Perhaps you could help us understand. Other than the physics adjustment and MP format, how does this improve on FM6 and even 7
T10 have never been good at communication. Look at the issues with FM6 & 7. They never engaged in those and this is no different.
Not sure why people think that will change with FM8.
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At least for me personally, the opposite of this is true. Obviously I would like a flawlessly functional game, but that just isn’t how it works. I can definitely live with some bugs. Not ideal, but I can deal with it.
I’ve said this in a variety of places now but they don’t get my $100, which I am reserving for as soon as it happens, until the carpg system is patched out. One thing I saw Dan Greenawalt say in the Top Gear interview was that they’re treating new players like “they’re smart.” It would be impossible for me to overstate the extent to which it feels like the opposite of that to me. I would actually say the carpg system is outright condescending. This system belongs in something like Ridge Racer, not a sim. I’ve been in automotive repair for a number of years now, and automotive parts sales for a number of years before that. Only time experience points ever came up is if someone had a Final Fantasy sticker in the window.
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I’m lucky not to have been too badly affected by bugs, so I can see why that more be more problematic for those who have been having their progress constantly reset etc. However, car points definitely feels like the more long term problem.
One easy way to solve it would be to link it to completion of career. Have car points until you’ve completed the career and then give the player the option to toggle off, if they no longer want it in place. That’s a point when players have done a significant amount of grinding and got used to the cars.
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Like so many other suggestions that’s maybe better than its current state, but that would still be troublesome in that it would further highlight the arbitrary nature of the system even further.
The “affinity” system really was the best they ever had. With tweaks I think be a great way to emulate the various manufacturer relationships drivers develop over time. Like the way Ken Block’s Gymkhana videos progressed from Subaru to Ford to Audi.
Theres only been 2 times in forza motorsport where turn 10 changed anything. First was fm5 about a month after release they faced backlash due to a dismal in-game economy seemingly trying to force players to buy tokens with real money to buy things in game. They also had plans to release a track expansion for money, but this luckily didnt happen as they adjusted payouts and decided to release the 3 tracks for free.
The 2nd time was fm7, they decided to make vips best attribute that most people actually pay the money for, double credits, only a 5 time perk. They also had a form of loot boxes during the time when the media was having a frenzy about them, so they changed both those things.
Both times the thing they had in common that actually brought about change, was the media got involved. Unfortunately with this game which is undoubtedly worse then either of those titles, theres not a peep out of anybody.
Worst part is this game will probably win an award tomorrow based off of undeserved face value review scores. Turn 10 will accept this award and be sure to thank everyone and put a nice little graphic on a loading screen and/or ad for the game “best sport/racing game of the year”, even though i personally think this is one of the biggest flops in racing game history, id argue its even worse then pcars 3 if not for game pass.
Nothings going to change, they have the best excuse in the short term by calling it a platform for the future or gaas. The only time we’ll hear anything negative about the mistakes or shortfalls that they’ve made is in a year when the their “vision” never comes to fruition and the game is dead.
It took a good 6 months before turn 10 realized fm7 wasnt going to succeed. It seems as though nothing has been learned from past mistakes. They say you first have to acknowledge you have a problem before you can fix it, unfortunately they’re not ready to do that yet.
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Exactly.
History has shown the futility in hoping for any meaningful acknowledgment, apology, rapid response, or major course correction.
When people show you who they are, believe them.
It’s been 2 months since the retail launch of a game that was years in the making, in a series that’s been around for 18 years…
…There’s no miraculous rescue coming.
There’s no pot of gold at the end of this rainbow.
They didn’t do better in the years leading up to this, so there’s no reason to expect that now they’ll suddenly get some magical infusion of amazing resources & unbridled passion to unsink the Titanic.
At this point, hoping for a miracle is like waiting around for an ex to come back to you after they dumped you years ago & they moved on & they started a family with someone else.
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You’re right with the “blunt” part. I’ve already said this in an other thread. Look at the accounts you’re interacting with. The one in question is registered since 2017 but only read 1 day in total and that just recently. There are a couple of these accounts just getting active now. I guess you can count 1 + 1 together for the rest.
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They can keep the miracle. I just want some accountability at this point, as well as some fundamental changes to ensure that another Forza Motorsport 2023 can’t happen again.
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Well, you’re probably going to get your wish because I doubt there’s going to be any further Forza Motorsport games after this? 
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I’ve made this exact point multiple times here. Yes, It absolutely would have been a truthful depiction of the product that was sold. And it absolutely would have given them much leeway in releasing it in the state its in and peoples perceptions of it.
Its almost like if you sold someone a bike that was going to be peacemealed out part by part and slowly built up, and was going to ride rough til it was tuned up, They dont get mad when thats exactly what happens.
As opposed to selling them a completed, cutting edge, high performance out the box bike, But they wind up getting the former experience instead.
I’ve also made points on this before that the outcry for ‘communication’ is a hilarious cope. As if them telling us how bad they are at their jobs would make a better game in the end in spite of the terrible one we already bought. Its utter nonsense. “Communication” with the fans has never pulled a good game out of a bad release. This is the time, to shut the ___ up and make the product we purchased. This is what CDPR did with Cyberpunk. This is what Hellogames did with NMS. Them giving you their ‘roadmap’ does absolutely nothing but warp and overhype your expectations even more.
“Communication with community” is what CIG does with their endless tech demo that has no expected release date for either project. Its what Destiny does while missing the mark on every update. Its what bad developers do to make it seem like they know what they’re doing, and you are a fool for falling for it. I’m sorry, but thats the truth.
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As someone who was fully on board the Hype Train for this game and made quite the song and dance about it here in the lead up to its release, I’m so happy that EA WRC is out.
I love WRC so much I haven’t even played ACC since it came out, I’ve been playing the absolute pants off it.
I still dabble in Forza from time to time for a quick break however, have done all the time limited stuff and mess around with Rivals a bit and some multiplayer, once they fixed the bug that was preventing saving that was really ruining my patience for it.
For now at least, the main thing that irks me is the lack of content. The Builder’s Cup/Featured Cups are so generic and samey, 5x 6 laps or whatever. They put so much new capability into the game in terms of dynamic weather/time, tyre compounds etc yet don’t use it in any meaningful way.
I don’t mind the carxp system but it does feel grindy once you do a cup and there’s nothing much else to do with your car. It’s all pretty “bleh”.
The AI’s lack of racecraft also makes for a very generic and predictable race.
The Violet video that got posted up is pretty thorough I think.
Anyway, kinda surprised everyone is still here. I don’t expect anything to change. They aren’t going to remove the carxp system, re do car models, new audio or any of the other key items people are asking for. It’s just gonna be bug fixes, new tracks and cars.
Oh, and there won’t ever be accountability or anything like it either. There’s never been any communication so we’re just talking to each other here.
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It’s possible to do both. CD Projekt Red didn’t entirely go radio-silent when rehabilitating Cyberpunk 2077; I can’t speak to No Man’s Sky because I didn’t follow that development closely, but I do recall headlines about the dev team’s silence eventually forced them to open the channels up anyway and get better at it.
Used correctly, communication is not a “hilarious cope” - it’s a powerful tool that can pull a game back from the brink, and retain players who would have otherwise left, as well as convince new players to come aboard. Take, for instance, this iRacing Development Update video from last month, which packs more information into six minutes than a year’s worth of Forza Monthlies:
Turn 10’s problem is that they are not communicating. They are selling. They are trying to sell everyone a broken product. Bungie is trying to sell people their broken product. CIG, I don’t know of, but I guess that has something to do with Star Citizen and I honestly don’t care. The point is, as long as Turn 10 is selling and not communicating, then it really doesn’t matter what they do, even if they shut up. Playground Games, after two years and seeing Mike Brown out of the door, finally seems to be coming around to that fact.
So who has to get fired from Turn 10 for them to finally get it?
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Bro was that iRacing video trolling (at the 2:13 mark) when they said “bUiLt FrOm ThE gRoUnD uP??”
Well played, iRacing. Well played.
They’ve never been good at communicating meaningfully.
They just do clumsy promos & vague evangelism.
They do monthly vlogs with awkwardly forced hype from visibly uncomfortable people about upcoming content.
They spin nebulous yarns to media outlets about their “vision” (that never seems to actually come to fruition).
They say things like “wE gEt It BeCaUsE wE’rE gAmErS & cAr LoVeRs Too!”
They do polls on social media about silly stuff like “what’s your favorite color to paint a muscle car?”
That kind of superficial fluff, along with a forum & patch notes, checks all the corporate boxes for “cOmMuNiTy EnGaGeMeNt.”
All of the old guard that has spent years cementing this as the “CuLtUrE” there.
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Calling it “hilarious cope” is a cynically reductionist take on things. Plenty of mainstream games that bombed at launch, but then grew to win fans back, came from some level of addressing the public in combination with routine events. The devs behind Cyberpunk, FFXIV, GT7, all communicated to varying levels, backed with comprehensive updates. Hell, even 343 acknowledged Halo: MCC’s awful launch state.
Obviously words don’t equate to an improved game, but a public, official statement acknowledging a universally-criticized product, in combination with some level of reassurance (could be in the form of a detailed or vague roadmap, a statement of X # of devs on-hand, or budget allocated on improvements, basic timelines, etc), HAS been the formula for winning fans back. NMS is the only dev I can think of that did not communicate prior alongside issuing improvements, yet the CEO issued an open letter subsequently apologizing and admitting that this was a mistake.
You cited CDPR doing the same thing, but the team has made numerous public statements at least acknowledging the state of the product. The co-founder issued a video statement early within the game’s launch timeframe citing the mistakes and factors that impacted launch and provided a roadmap for planned updates.
T10 has not done anything along these lines outside of a single tweet along the lines of “we see the feedback.” It’s been out for over two months now.
Simply put, these games have had someone at a higher level representing the company go on public record to provide some level of communication. It’s honestly unfair to expect Andy or Brenden, game director and senior game producer, to do these monthly updates when the leadership has gone silent. These guys get blasted in the comments, and there’s this expectation put on them since they’re LITERALLY the only guys providing any Forza-related updates to the community on any type of cadence.
It’s not on them. It’s not on anyone at the development level. Someone, or some management collective, has likely instructed the team to not speak about the situation at all. Most likely out of fear for any admittance of a substandard product circulating on mainstream outlets, which opens an outlet for related discussion or inquiry on the state of the game.
It just reinforces the corporatized feeling of T10 continuing to drift away from its enthusiast-centric, joy-of-driving roots. They continue to focus on making it the most accessible game for the masses and aren’t concerned about the dwindling, hardcore fanbase.
Or, that’s what a lack of communication sure feels like.
This Live Service approach has been such a crappy catch-all veil to roll out improvements on a “we totally intended for it to be this way” excuse.
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In an ironic twist, Forza Horizon seems to be filling that niche and is probably why it’s overtaken FM in popularity?
FH5 is not perfect. We know that. It’s a copy paste of FH4, blah, blah, blah. What I’m talking about is at least, FH5 “gets it” about the joy of driving, having FUN things to do with cars, having contemporary car content collaborations (Donut Media), etc.
Even if you (persons in general) hate the “Zoomer” Donut Media types, you have to admit, FH5 does the whole car culture and driving enthusiast thing a Hell of a better than FM does, and that’s why it has grown in popularity besides being the more accessible (arcade) game.
Forget the cringy dialog. Forget the PG-style presentation. None of that takes away from the fact when you boot up the game, there is just a more positive and less cynical vibe than FM (the series) has. I know FM is supposed to be the more “serious” game, but they’ve forgotten that it’s supposed to be a game in the first place, and have removed any sort of fun from the game whatsoever… Literally, in the case of FM 2023, where we now have to grind mindlessly to unlock parts.
RE: Communication…
Communication during times of (corporate) crisis is vital to maintaining confidence in a brand not just for consumers, but stockholders and other third-parties who have an even greater financial vested interest in the product doing well.
It can also give a sense of closure to those who are disappointed, angry and disillusioned with the product, so they can choose to either move on, or stick around and see if any meaningful changes are made. This is why communication, even at the basic level, is needed and isn’t just “hilarious cope” because that’s a reductionist and narrow view of the situation as a whole.
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