An effort in futility

Forza Motorsport Legacy Motorsport
1

Let me preface this by saying, I have actively followed the prescribed method for saving replays and reporting intentional griefers, for months now, and I have encouraged others to do the same. I know there are a few other folks out there doing the same thing, and occasionally, we see a post about someone actually being banned.
I have seen the system work to the extent that it can. I have watched a known griefer get banned, only to be right back at it the same day, using a new GAMERTAG.
I’m an optimist, but I am also a realist. I believe we are identifying many griefers and some are actually being banned. But, honestly, the problem is only getting worse. Every week, a new class of wreckers comes up from enthusiast or over from ghost leagues. There are more people wrecking than racing in many lobbies. Known wreckers who have been reported, are not only ignored, they are promoted, while those of u s who suffer through their carnage end up either staying where we are, or we get relegated down to enthusiast division (an even less skilled division, full of griefers.
There are many suggestions available, and many of those suggestions would actually make it less attractive for the griefers. The community has valid questions and well thought answers to help eliminate griefers. It’s not going to be easy, and saving and reporting replays is apparently NOT going to be enough.
I for one am depressed with the complete lack of any order in the Professional League. Every race is a wreck fest. Especially the new Modern GT league. It’s the beginning of the league., and we have a lot of new racers who moved up from enthusiast or were relegated down from elite. Especially since their is no damage or tire wear or fuel consumption. Especially since we have mandatory pit/quick stops in all races, even when the races are often 3 short Laos. Every race is horrible. If I don’t get rammed by at least 3 people in or before the first turn, it’s because I literally stayed at my starting grid to wait out the turn 1 carnage. But when I do start, slowly and carefully picking my way through the carnage, I am quickly assaulted by some mental midget who thinks its cool. Many actually look for me by GAMERTAG. They hunt me down in teams and literally destroy my car.then wait until I am out of the pits, and do it again.
Now, I am a laid back guy. I often drop back to last place and just run laps to stay away from the griefers. I end up finishing last in too many races, because it is physically impossible to complete all of my laps.
I’m not the only one who sees this. Anyone who tries to race in leagues or multiplayer, has to deal with these wreckers, and they are literally destroying Leagues AND MULTIPLAYER LOBBIES.
NowI am just requesting some kind of a sensible response, with guidelines. Just what can we do. What can I do to combat intentional griefers in EVERY RACE?
Sure, I would be happy to save the replays and use the procedures in place. But that isn’t going to stop anyone now and my races will be either quit or finished in last. Because there are just too many griefers who want to harass me.

What’s going to happen is this. You (Turn 10) will end up banning me when I fight back against these attacks. I am done just accepting last place. I am going to drive my race. If during that race the griefers bump me off the track, I will first try to brace for the bump and counter that bump to ensure they get the worst end of it. If a player punts me off the track or pushes me off the track, I will dish out an equal punt or push on THAT griefer.
I won’t do this on rubbing and bumping that is incidental racing contact. I will not seek out anyone. I will return the griefer what he deserves
The new no damage leagues have opened up opportunities where cheaters can ram a clean driver and never even slow down.
The other major issue is with corner cutters. These cheaters exploit the game by cutting every corner possible and knocking opponents off the track. They do this for 2 laps to get a huge lead, then they slow down and run one or two clean laps to get high points for the race.
From now on, when one of these meatheads cut a corner to get in front of me, I will do my best to cost them more than the time they gained.
Why? Because I am a clean racer who follows the rules. Rules that are needed, along with policing. I don’t want to do any of these things. But I am sick and tired of the few who cheat, getting the best of those of us who actually try to have clean, fun races.

*EDIT
I will be doing my level best to NOT retaliate. I was ANGRY and FRUSTRATED when I wrote this. I am STILL angry and frustrated, but I have had time to cool off.
Please forgive my gasket blowing session. I apologize if I offended anyone. I really do just want to race, that’s all.

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I mean, these are NO NEW NEWS at all… And what we are whitnissing here is a great and loyal player getting sucked out…

T10 has to do something at some point. Yes it is hard to spot the rammers, but it doesn’t help when T10, maybe by accident, does those rammers one favor after the other.
We all hated the sticky grass, yes but only at those places where it was ridiculous. This corner cutting is there since release and nothing has been done.
Those rammers and cutters actually damage T10s reputation and ruin a game for a large group of players.

So please wake up community guys…there are problems!

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The latest frustration is in multi class where some one in a lower class turns around at the start and smashes into those yet to start or just starting. Charming.

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It is a sad day indeed when someone that has been so steadfast in his belief that by doing the right thing by turning the other cheek so to speak, he thought that eventually the griefers might change or T10 might eventually start to take this issue seriously. I like many others gave up ages ago trying to do the right thing, I start with good intentions and pretty much within 3-4 races I’m going around seeking retribution when I get rammed. The intentional wreckers have no intention of changing, as someone mentioned they often just come on with a different gt and carry on if banned. Unfortunately there are a lot of people who’s only pleasure in this game or any other is to ruin others enjoyment if they are infuriating other players they like it even more. They do it in every game they play be it cod, Gta, gears or halo.
You either have to grit your teeth and carry on hoping to find a clean lobby for a couple of races before they inevitably turn up or switch off and play something else. This is online gaming life ,it is not going to change.
If even old hippie has given up, the end is nigh ,surely.
Peace (or not)

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The answer, honestly, is not to join the crashers in their activities. That is like arguing with a troll - they’re much better at it than we are and the best solution is to ignore and report.

Unfortunately, the mess-up with the Content Update which resulted in “invalid data” reporting for replay files created before May 17 (now corrected) tossed a literal monkey wrench in the process of reviewing all those. However, I am currently “only” six days behind in the process and hope to get caught up in this next week.

One of the things which would really help is if Turn 10 would up the ante on the bans and prevent the creation of secondary accounts by including a console ban in the regular three-instance process. No new gamertags with their low gamer scores (which is an Xbox Live “family” thing, not Turn 10) would be able access the game during that period. So far we haven’t gotten that, but completely shutting out these people for their seven- or 30-day bans would be very helpful.

However, since this is another weekend, and another Monday holiday, too, there is no staff working. Everything piles up again.

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You’re right, Snowowl, and my intent is not to go searching for trouble. I’m just feel like I need to up my aggressiveness. I need to “race” these people the same way they “race” me. I’m not talking about plowing through the pack, or pushing clean drivers out of my way.
If a guy punts me through a turn, I believe he should experience the same frustration the next time I am trying to pass him. If a guy bumps me off (intentionally) into a tire wall, because he wanted to beat me through a chicane, at a speed that would only allow it if he used my car to bounce off of, he should expect similar treatment if I see the same opportunity while following him.

You know I want to report these people, Snowowl. I have, and if it’s fixed, I will start again. But it’s not getting better, it’s getting worse. People are driving like its a ghost league, especially now with damaged turned off. I am on board with the program, but sincerely frustrated.

I wrote this very early this morning (late last night) after several hours of trying to race. I was extremely angry when I quit, and it shouldn’t have to be this way. I don’t really care about the points. The folks who normally race with me will tell you I routinely just drop to the back and try to run clean laps. If someone is ready to pass me, I communicate with them and let them pick their line and when they want to do it. IF I get feeling a little froggy, I will race hard and clean, and can often work my way up to a podium, without a scratch. All I want to do is race, and enjoy some friendly banter. But that is becoming an effort in futility.

Now, I will shut up, and go see if I have been banned or not. I will go back to saving my replays and do my best to have faith in the system. Because I really like this game and always have.

Sorry for my frustrated rants.

Peace

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It is a good thing that Microsoft allows you to share your gold account with family members on the same console. It is however being abused by trolls and idiots. While I dont want to see the gold sharing feature removed, it may be prudent for Microsoft to limit the number of accounts that can be created under the Master Gamertag associated with the Gold account. Last year my friends and I were being harassed by 3 people who were making a new gamertag every week that resembled our gamertags. They would then go troll lobbies. There seemed to be no limit on the number of new gamertags they could create.

I would much rather see Microsoft limit the Family Sharing of Gold to 4 or 5 gamertags rather than see them do away with with a wonderful addition to the service we all pay for. It will be extremely unfortunate if Microsoft were to take away Gold Sharing due to the immature actions of those who only enjoy ruining the joy of other people.

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I feel for you Old Hippie, it’s a shame that the griefers have been able to push you past the tipping point making you want retribution. Please don’t retaliate as the last thing to ruin the game for you will be a ban because you also broke the rules! On a completely unrelated point… Have you ever found yourself locking up your brakes slightly coming into a corner resulting in accidental racing contact with someone else (possibly a crasher)? I’ve unfortunately had that happen a couple of times and it is a real shame I accidentally knocked that dude off the track because I applied a little too much brake pressure… :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

I want to start saving replays and reporting, even if only to help those of you who frequent multiplayer more often. Maybe Snowowl could give some insight as we have him in the thread…

What constitutes a crasher from your perspective? I mean in a more technical sense of course. How serious does something need to be before it is worth actually reporting? I would hate to send replays that I perceive as unsportsmanlike conduct only to waste your time because it does not tick the boxes necessary for action to be taken. For example:

Guy races 3-4 clean laps with me right behind him, takes clean lines and I manage a clean pass on the last lap. All of a sudden, 2 corners to go, he “misses” his braking zone and rear ends me off into the sand. Worth reporting? It may not be the traditional ramming but do things like this qualify?

Do you have some standards that you follow as a moderator when it comes to reviewing the replays which you could share with the clean racers here in the forums? I am sure you get a ton of replays which you can’t take action on for one reason or another. If reporting and banning is still our only method to combat these guys, let’s work close together to make this process as efficient and effective as possible!

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I’m impartial. It disturbs me people think it is fun to make a mockery of the game and their fellow players, but I disprove allegations as well as confirming them for Turn 10. Turn 10 does the bans, I only gather evidence and submit it. I take no action, only Turn 10 employees can do that. I’m not, and don’t.

What constitutes a crasher? Unsportsmanlike conduct which is a violation of the Xbox Live Code of Conduct. Those regulations are for all of Xbox Live, not just Forza Motorsport 6. You would be surprised how many of these people have Xbox Live Reputations of “Avoid me.” Those are strictly from reports filed directly with Xbox Live, not simply an individual game.

The key, which is why we use in-game replays which can give different angles, different cars and different perspectives, is the deliberate behavior from start to finish. A full-speed, 100% throttle into a turn specifically targeting a car or cars is unsportsmanlike conduct. Period. That guy who (right-hand first turn) moves over from his left-row starting position and runs close to the pit wall on the right at full-speed to slam into as many cars slowing to the first turn as he/she can. Crasher, but if you were clear of the melee, “you” may not have been affected until later in the race.

The funny thing is people tend to “see” only things which happen to them, but don’t take into the account the overall actions throughout the race. So, you got hit. Was there room to pass? If it was a win-at-all-cost move, he’s a crasher. Or did he stop, apologize and let you take the lead again? If he did that, the incident was a mistake. If he didn’t, he wanted the win and it was the only way he could get it.

What I generally follow is it: (1) disruptive, (2) how many laps does the alleged offender complete, (3) how many times is the action repeated, (4) direction of travel (some of these people drive the wrong way, never complete at single lap, and their only interest is how many cars they can wreck), (5) corner cutters - are they wrecking or causing wrecks because of their actions, and (6) any or all of the following: blocking, swerving, brake-checking, sideswiping, not maintaining a legitimate line, diving into corners (combined with telemetry), wrecking several cars and then quitting out of the race, and one of my favorites - shunting?

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The problem is that even with bad reputation (yellow/orange/red) they’re still able to play in any available lobby.

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I have seen this way too often or at least the part about getting hit on one of the last two corners. I don’t report it because I can’t be sure. This is the last lap and adrenaline may be running a little high and it may not be intentional. If the person is in the next race in the series and isn’t in a position to do it to me again, I won’t see it.

If I can’t be sure, how can Turn 10 be sure? If the person does it enough, you can be sure but that would require most of the people he did it to to report him. Turn 10 or Snowowl would also have to keep a database to keep track of this.

I said I can’t be sure. A couple of times I was sure. That is because the person involved was racing with a friend and commented about doing it. Unfortunately, the chatter isn’t contained in the replay.

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Simple. If he waited for you to give the place back it was an accident. If he carried on after bashing you off then he can be treated like he did it intentionally whether or not he actually did.

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I to have raced in the Modern GT League in the professional division, but honestly I haven’t seen any wreckers.
Sure there are people who are a little to careless, and this causes collisions, but I haven’t seen anyone
intentionally ramming anyone else.

There have been a few times where I finished near the back of the field, but most of the time I’m in or near the top 5.
So just race clean, give plenty of space, even the cheaters. If you do this I can’t imagine anyone would seek you out to wreck you.

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I very infrequently venture into the realm of multiplayer races. I did this past week and it took me only two races to realize the futility of even trying to race there. What occurred was mayhem. I went in with the idea that I’d run the cleanest race I could, regardless of where I might finish. But the frustration was soon to take hold. Clowns with NO intent of racing clean would come screaming up from behind at full speed and slam into me, and anyone else and send the cars flying into barriers and off the track. When they would wreck against a wall, they’d sit in wait until my car or another’s car approached and then hit the gas to slam into the oncoming cars. Purely to cause the race mayhem. They took all the fun out of racing. There have been times, very late in the night, when a clean group of racers can be found. When that happens, racing is enjoyable.

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I ran a few races in the Modern GT league last night in the Professional division on my other half’s profile (long story, but I was the one in the baby pink Aston in case anyone spotted it). I didn’t see anyone in there solely to grief other players, but there was plenty of intentional ramming by people who were trying to win, especially in the first couple of turns.

I have a hard time completely condemning this type though, as there’s nothing anywhere in the whole game that even suggests that this tactic is unacceptable, and an entire career mode where it’s actively rewarded. These people are playing to win and unfortunately they are playing to win within the rules of the game, because T10 forgot to define any rules other than “whoever crosses the line first, wins”.

It was still a minority though, and most of the guys finishing consistently towards the front were racing nice and clean. It certainly wasn’t the total crash-fest I expected.

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Totally agree with hippie on this the system is broken and is being exploited. I personally have witnessed both pro league and enthusiast league this week in modern gt they have both been wreck fests .
I as anyone who has raced in the same league as me would of noticed that I play a alot of Forza and especially leagues, (due to the lack of a real life) because I play so much I am more penalized than someone who races a couple of hours a day due to the fact that ranks and divisions are decided by statistics. The guy that comes in causes a few big wrecks cuts corners for the first few laps then does a couple of clean ones to get a clean race For a couple of hours a day gets better numbers than the guy who plays for six or seven hours a day gets wrecked has to pit and can never catch up because of the short length of the races or has to quit because they can’t get back to the pits gets worse numbers and because its averaged without considering the amount of races played its nearly impossible to increase your rank.

LONG STORY SHORT Play less and go up divisions, Play more put up with idiots and go down divisions

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It is indeed a sad day when someone who has shown real commitment to making the game more enjoyable for all reaches this point.

There are some solutions to this though and I say this as someone who reached your level of frustration a while ago (I probably have less patience and resolve than yourself Od Hippie)

Most of those solutions have been outlined above:

  1. This isn’t just Turn 10’s problem it needs some decisive action from Microsoft regarding making the Account holder share some responsibility. The person paying the bill has the right to know if someone else e.g a family member is breaking the rules and the responsibility to ensure they stop doing so. If it is one and the same person using separate accounts to troll then there should be a restriction on creating new gamertags whilst the account has a ‘ban’ imposed on it. I think Snowowl may have already mentioned this!

2)Leagues - Turn 10 or rather those responsible for devising Leagues every week need to look at where they fit in to Online racing and find a niche (market) to sell them to. If people want short races with pitstops and ‘ghost racing’ give them it in the public hoppers. If people want sim racing with properly enforced rules etc they can join one of the many sim racing leagues TORA, TURN etc or start something themselves. If people want something in between i.e; competitive racing with people of similar ability sometimes damage enabled and sometimes cosmetic slightly longer races with the odd pitstop thrown in for strategy, something they can join one week and not the next depending on what’s available or whether they have the time then there’s… Forza leagues

  1. Corner Cutting - This maybe for the next installment of Forza (If there is one). I think that a more sophisticated, subtle (graduated) and targeted version of ‘Sticky’ is called for

I hope that you feel better for reading some of the suggestions we’ve made and thanks for all the time and effort you put in trying to make the game better for all of us - Peace to you

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This is precisely why I have quit playing this game*, the Multiplayer environment just isn’t fun when every second race has a pileup at Turn 1 or a griefer at Turn 2. It’s been 9 months, with no sign of improvement. I took a month off and tried the Hoppers last week; nothing has changed. I am done giving this game second chances.

Content-wise the series is the best it’s ever been. It’s what people do with that content that has forced me out of the game however, and it will not improve during this title’s lifespan.

*Yes, I was online for the past week. However, a friend gave me a free NASCAR code and I figured I’d play through for the Achievements.

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This is exactly why I’m taking such a long time to play through all the single player content. Public, random, multiplayer just isn’t worth it.

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Maybe it’s when I play but I don’t see very much intentional wrecking going on. I’m on the west coast and don’t start racing until 930 or 10 at night. I pretty much see the same drivers most of the nights and the idiots that do wreck intentional get weeded out pretty fast. You still get your turn 1 crashes but most of the time it’s simply the result of to many cars going for the same spot.
I have been in pro league since I started playing them and pretty much in the nascar league since it started. Maybe it’s because it’s so late and the kids are in bed but I have been really enjoying it lately.