I’ve already seen a couple instances of cars flying uncontrolled into corners already ghosted. So they’re either doing it themselves or the game has started ghosting people automatically.
Simcades - Serious. Business.
Apparently. Seems like someone forgot to send out that memo, if that’s the case.
I mean, I’m still trying to figure out what changes if contact gets turned off. You’d still be racing against live opponents, and not a recording of their best lap. If they’re going to outdrive you, they’re going to outdrive you, and there’s not a whole lot you can do to stop that in a lot of cars. “BuT, aSkChAuLlY…” Actually, nothing. Most serious organizations allow for one defense. After that, you’re either getting blue-flagged or getting parked for an indeterminate period of time.
The problem is, Forza (like NASCAR) wants to be seen as one of the big boys, but doesn’t want to put in the work. And people realize that, so they take advantage of it. That’s why there’s an automated penalty system that hurts the victims of a collision much more than the instigator, because Gamers - as they are wont to do - have figured out how to game that system and bend it to fit their ends. And when a Gamer adamantly tells me things like they need to have contact on because without it “It’S nOt RaCiNg!!1@”, that tells me that somewhere behind their squeaky-clean image are a few skeletons they’d rather stay buried.
If Forza’s not going to ghost the lobbies, then they have to increase regulation and moderation to levels significantly higher than what is currently in the game right now. Humans have to get involved. Someone has to be able to look at a situation and figure out what passes a smell test and what fails. Reporting bad actors has to be made significantly easier; the current system of scanning a QR code to go to an external form and then having to provide captured footage, on top of a whole bevy of other details, is absurd. And then, finally, there have to be separate lobbies for full-contact, and those lobbies have to be as strict as an old-school Catholic nun. Heavy, real-time moderation by both machine and live people, and they have to be locked away from all but the best drivers. Beef the safety rating system up and make that mean something again. You want to run with the big dogs? S rank only. And if you mess up, you’re out until you can prove you can get back in and fly right.
That’s what it’s going to take. But if they’re not going to do that, then the very least they can do is make it so that people’s days don’t get ruined because the eight-year-old playing on their parents’ account is still trying to figure out how brakes work, or the Gamer that’s mad he got outplayed decides to take it out on you ASAP.
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I dont think anyone jumped down anyones throat. Ghost lobbies have been in past forzas, its possible theyll return. My opinion is that they shouldn’t be added as i dont think they really help the situation.
I think when these lobbies were added in the past, due to these exact reasons it just allowed turn 10 to shut people up for the moment while never addressing the problem.
Theyve finally at least tried something and i think pressure should be applied on them to make things better. Ghost lobbies are a cop out and im sorry but its not racing, its not helping anyone.
Its an unfortunate problem that will always exist, these are video games, they are played by all types of people, all different ages and all different skill levels. Iracing is a paid subscription service and theres people that still cant keep it clean.
I think turn 10 does have a responsibility to create a space where cleaner racing can exist and its our responsibility to help them but ultimately make them do it.
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Having opponents who are physical barriers/obstacles is a defining characteristic of many sports.
…A running-back’s ability to quickly sprint while carrying a ball is only half the equation - the other half is their ability to get past the defense.
Similarly, racing is not just about pace/speed - racecraft is the offensive & defensive skill/art of safely navigating opponents on the racetrack.
Always-on ghosting in racing is like having a running-back in (American) football who can intangibly pass/phase through the defense to score - it fundamentally alters the core of the sport.
…And it would also fundamentally alter the core of the sport if either/both the offense and/or defense could often get away with using weapons against each other - which is similar to what we have with ramming in racing games.
The ghost or don’t ghost preference is about choosing between two evils because we unfortunately don’t have racing games that are good at encouraging/enforcing sportsmanship.
…
(* Maybe American football isn’t the best analogy/comparison here since that’s not a no-contact sport.
Maybe something like basketball might be a more fitting comparison since most forms of aggressive contact in that sport are considered fouls.
The gist/point is that removing all possibility of physical contact completely changes the essence of the sport - and so does removing a reason to avoid/minimize physical contact.)
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I understand all of that…from a professional driver’s perspective.
Unfortunately, with this game, I can’t look at it from a professional driver’s perspective. I have to look at it from perspective of a Gamer (yes, capitalized on purpose). And I have to be honest…Gamers suck. They really do. They don’t care about any rulesets or regulations that they can ignore freely. They don’t care about other players’ intents or even the intents of developers. All they care about is playing in a fashion that gets them the most laughs, the most attention, the most clout.
There’s a reason I keep harping on the degree to which Turn 10 is going to have to go in order to enforce and encourage proper racecraft. When Playground Games had to put in a ghosting system to try and curb Horizon’s atrocious online racing, Gamers quickly figured out how fast they could go before it triggered, and then adjusted their tactics accordingly. And little changed as a result. Online racing there is still a horrid, horrid experience.
Unfortunately, if that’s the case then neither is the other ghosting solution. All that will do is hamper the players who are there to race because the Gamers will figure out how to drive dirty without triggering it.
Turn 10 simply has to do better. What direction they go in to do better is up to them, but if they are going to give drivers and racers the environment they need, then they have to overhaul all of their systems - safety rating, moderation, enforcement, everything applicable to multiplayer, and they have to stick to it. But if they’re not going to do that, and they’re going to insist that this is a game for everyone like Horizon is, then they have to do something to stop the Gamers, or no one is going to want to put up with it.
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Yeah, I feel the same way.
“Gamers” ≠ “racers” in the motorsport sense of racing.
I think that’s because racing games have always done a poor job of emulating the sport of racing.
Instead, it’s often almost-anything-goes for reaching the finish line ahead of opponents, and often almost-anything-goes for hindering opponents.
…Which is what perpetuates the problem of so many gamers never bothering to polish their racecraft & sportsmanship in racing games.
That’s why even though I dislike ghosting, I’d roll with it only because I dislike ramming even more.
Video games for other sports are generally better at enforcing rules to prevent & penalize unsportsmanlike behavior.
This game’s automated FRR penalty enforcement is a good concept, but unfortunately, its implementation is still so problematic that it’s too generous to even call it a “beta feature.”
When something has (at best) a 50/50 coin-toss likelihood of getting proper results, it hasn’t proven that it actually functions at all.
(…And it’s been a problem far too long for people to keep saying “stop being so impatient and just quietly keep waiting another year/decade/century for it to reach its potential.”)
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I get what you’re saying and it’s true gamers suck, but that doesnt mean that games should be held back because of them.
I think its taken turn 10 far too long to address this issue and i think driver and saftey ratings if done properly is certainly the way forward, but there are other things that can be done as well.
I think everyones experience in these games are different and opinions will vary as to what could, should or need to be done. I personally think they need to do more on creating a culture of better race craft.
I remember when i bought the first gran turismo and the booklet that came with it was filled with information about the terminology and illustrations of types of turns, how to brake, how to pass, how to tune etc. Then when you played there were license tests, it made me feel at least like it truly was “the real driving simulator”.
Ive always played racing games, but gran turismo really made me at that time aware of race craft. Polyphony has continued trying to actually teach players how to race and i think turn 10 need to do the same.
I think this is why the average gt player is cleaner than the average forza player. Whether they know it or not all those license tests and circuit experiences have made them better racers and it shows.
These are the types of things forza needs, if they want people to race properly they need to teach them to. Youll always have players that want to watch the world burn but i think theres things that can be done to minimize their impact.
I dont think adding ghost lobbies fixes anything, i think it leads down a dead end road we’ve been down before. I just think they need to focus on raising the bar on what is expected when people want to race in this game and that starts by teaching them how to.
I just want to say im not against ghost lobbies being added, i just dont think they should be. Im all for people being able to race where and how they want, but ghost racing is already in the game and its called rivals.
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If it wasn’t for FOMO I’d probably play even less.
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Ramming is so infrequent nowadays that I’d rather have a rewarding, actual race than some kind of BS hotlapping session with randomly chosen rivals.
Permanently ghosted racing will never happen on public lobbies and that idea needs to go bye bye from the few people here suggesting it.
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A licensing system would eliminate the majority of these issues. Gatekeep a section of public hoppers behind a mandated set of “licensed safety” tests, similar to GT’s.
Most greifers wouldn’t go through the trouble to complete these so it would weed out the gamepass trash.
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The art of racing is getting around people without hitting them. Clean overtakes is racing, not hot lapping.
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One thing is for certain, the game could do more to educate the players on racing, and tuning. Turn 10 wants to police and enforce racing rules, but the players do not seem to know what those rules are. I believe that is the main problem.
The reason I included tuning as a topic where players need more education is, this is Forza Motorsport’s 8th go-round, and tuning explanations are as cryptic as ever. While its nice to get info from YouTube or phone apps on tuning in Forza, getting that knowledge straight from the game would help everyone, not just those willing to dive into a rabbit hole on YT for tuning advice and knowledge.
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I think ghost lobbies in previous Forzas were additionally labelled as an introduction to online multiplayer, ie somewhere to safely dip your toe in the murky waters. I tried them out occasionally and found it an odd experience, but it does prepare you for the differences from single player. I think there’s room in the game for it to be an option for those who like it.
Right! There’s no race flags and the AI shows no proper race etiquette when entering/exiting the pits - especially in qualifying - nor when being lapped.
Also totally agree with you about tuning. Before launch I really hoped that finally we’d get in-game tools to go with the advertised Builders Cup nature of FM, but no.
Like i said im not against it, i just dont think it should be added as it doesnt promote anything of value. Driving through other players doesnt promote clean racing and it doesnt prepare you to overtake or defend.
The only positive would be it shows how you stack up pace wise, but where do you go from there since youre not building any sort of race craft. It could become a crutch like some assists do, which is something i also think shouldnt be applied automatically when someone first starts playing.
I just think in the long run itd be better for everyone if there was a certain standard of race craft that could be reached. Im not talking about iracing standard as this game has a broader player base, but there needs to be a certain expectation for how people play together.
Theyve gone down the accessibility road for too long and its created an unacceptable level of incompetence and complete disregard for anyone else. They did this thinking it would raise player numbers, but it had the opposite effect, theyve lost a huge amount of quality players to other games.
I think they need to do everthing they can to change the culture of this franchise. I think they need to reinforce things that promote good racing etiquette and minimize things that dont. I dont think ghost lobbies will help, if they did theyd be in other games.
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There have to be hardset rules and regulations for that to happen. There are none. As of this moment, Turn 10 thinks their automated penalty system is more than adequate to fulfill this purpose, despite plenty of evidence and tweaking suggesting otherwise.
Again, you have to look at it from the perspective of a Gamer. Gamers don’t care about racecraft. They care about winning by any means necessary. For the lulz, for their audience, for their Facebook pages - as long as they get one up on you, why and how means nothing to them.
Turn 10 has to make them care, and they have to do it in ways that their penalty systems and safety ratings just cannot accomplish. But if they’re not going to do that, then they have to do something to prevent the Gamers from driving away those that do care and further depleting their already meager playerbase. Personally? I don’t think they’re going to put in that effort. Look at how long it’s taking them to simply reclassify cars.
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This, FM4 taught people about hot lapping. We just need tips on racecraft, and tuning.
The problem is coaching costs money in the real world, and giving us a leg up for so cheap would anger people that make a lot of money of the business of real racing.
They have videos via “class in session” were they sit with professional racers/gamers and give tips.
This video helped me:
Yes, but real coaching’s value comes from 1 on 1 sessions. Info like what is expected during a race, what is not accepted on track, when is it safe to pass, when is it not safe to pass, track/corner cutting, acceptable contact, unacceptable contact… ect, should be in FM by now.
I am not expecting the game to show me things like where I should be looking to maximize speed and awareness, slip angle, braking techniques or, tips on pressuring other drivers. If the devs put that info in the game, then thats fine but its still far from a bespoke session with a racing coach. Coaching will be fine even if Turn 10 made an A.I. virtual coach.
Well, I couldn’t find any of that etiquette online. I think that’s only explained at IRL track days which costs more than Forza’s ultimate edition.
I’m all for it. it would draw more hardcore people into the sport. I’m skeptical if they want to go through the trouble of explaining the basics of racing/track day etiquette because that information is kept behind a paywall greater than 99.99+ tax. (If this isn’t true, someone please point me in the right direction so I can know what to expect for my first track day 
I’ve tried looking.)
The passing starting when front bumper is aligned with rear bumper has helped a lot when dealing with AI for me. It’s all I needed, they leave-a-space and everything.
iRacing Driving School
(YouTube playlist series of brief videos, with 3 chapters specifically on racecraft & passing)
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