No it doesn’t, otherwise lowering the DOR or increasing the lonearity would have a similar effect which it doesn’t, there is a clear difference on the physics side.
I found this, something I missed before
Sound like he didn’t know what the difference was, im betting once he finishes investigating he will come to the same conclusion I have.
Also, as someone who uses telemetry to assist in tuning, id be very interested to know what evidence you have to support this claim.
We do know. Now you are arguing with a Dev too.
What steering mode should I use?
Normal.
Why does sim steering have an effect?
Bug.
Its been broken forever in one way or another.
Menu’s are also no exception. Certain bars have been put into the game backwards, like brake balance for example.
EDIT: in fact, I have a replay on the board for the spec event at maple short reverse rivals.
Go watch the replay, pull up telemetry, see what you notice broken. ~#85 area.
Thanks Blue your vids are always clear and insightful.
Normal Steering! I used Normal Steering with my Fanatec CSL Elite and most cars still seem to slide all outta control. Simulation steering is not “more realistic.” Its just more difficult because the cars snap from oversteering to understeering even faster. I’ve been using Normal since Forza 4 with my Fanatec CSR wheel.
Fanatec csw, I use Normal because it seems way to snappy on simulation. Meaning when i try to correct a slide the car snaps back and spins. Doesn’t happen on normal.
I have no problems playing with Simulation steering on my Fanatec wheel or my controller. I just put it on Simulation and it’s perfectly fine.
Use whatever works for you. I know several people who run exclusively sim steering and they all use controllers, so don’t take the “normal is made for controller and sim is made for wheel” mantra too verbatim. For everybody else it usually depends on the kind of car they’re driving, as on some cars sim steering is much faster than normal (i.e. front wheel drive cars) due to the increased turn in response, but on most cars it only makes a monumental difference when you’re trying to chase tenths.
Long story short, use whatever you find comfortable. If you find you’re getting good results with normal, use normal. If you’re still not, you might have to adjust some other settings on your wheel.
Look, we’re all guessing as to what is really up with Sim Steering and wheels. We dont have the dll’s, we cant deobfuscate to see code etc etc etc.
We know there should be no difference, but there is. No one is disputing that there is or isnt a difference. Knowing that there should be no difference between modes, makes this a bug.
Im sure we can all agree there.
I missed Aaron’s commented you quoted, but if it is messing with linearity, then this would fall under input, not physics.
IN = OUT.
Im having a really really hard time understanding why you cant grasp this Blue.
I can’t, why? Because it’s has been the same for 6 years. Aaron wasn’t at turn t10 when sim steering was first implemented and one can assume the old ‘wheel guy’ set the modes up this way for a reason. Aaron seemed unsure of what the difference between them was and needs to investigate to find out, so him saying there should be no difference seems more like an assumption.
Because everything points to what I’ve been saying, we can test what our inputs do to the physics and there is no way to replicate what can happen on simulation steering when using normal steering, no matter the input setting or whatever it can’t be done. What can be done though is to reproduce what normal steering does when using simulation steering.
There has been no valid evidence to the other side of the argument, only opinions and assumptions, every thing I have said is 100% replicable and backed up by the tests I have done (whether or not you want to beleive the telemetry is that innaccurate)
OR, maybe I’m just insane…
No. Cause it doesnt matter what you are doing with the wheel.
think of it like DPI on your mouse.
Normal is 800 dpi, quite relaxed, your mouse behaves fine, takes a bit to move across the screen.
Sim should be 800 dpi too, cause off is off, but cause of bug, game takes your input, and thinks its 3200dpi and the mouse moves excessively with a very small movement.
If you do the same thing to something that will react in a physics engine, you end up with the same result you see in your videos.
EDIT: as for Aaron, doesnt matter that it was some wheel guy, he probably started off someone elses code, which was really someone elses, then someone elses before.
The same bugs keep reappearing game after game, I wonder why.
I Hope Aaron can fix it, but as I said before, the problem is probably far more then just that.
Ok if we use this as a perfect example of how the input from the wheel doesn’t change anything between the two modes. If I use 900 degrees on sim steering and do some weight tranfer tests, then compare it with normal steering but use 270 degrees we should see the same results no? But we don’t, even wen we compleatly lower the DOR to 90 normal steering is not able to reproduce the same experience/weight transfers as simulation steering, and that is a 1000% increase on the input. Bottom line, input is not the problem here.
I absolutley think he can, and I do beleive it’s that simple. Once the FFB continues to improve and be more accurate I think more and more wheel users will choose sim over normal.
Last night I spent a couple hours lapping the v8 supercar around bathurst with sim steering and it already feels like a major improvement from sim steering on FM6.
No, again. You arent getting it.
It has nothing to do with what you are doing on your wheel, what you have the wheel set to etc.
Its all do with how the code translates your input.
Let me try again.
Under normal, you turn the wheel 10 degree’s, the game does math, outputs 10 degrees to the game, car responds appropriately.
Under sim, you turn the wheel 10 degree’s again, the game does math, but instead of outputting 10, it ends up at 40 degrees, car responds aggressively.
Normal:
1+1 = 2
Sim:
1+1 = 5
I have already disproven this theory though, the cars turn the same amount regardless of steering setting, the game is NOT applying more lock angle.
Your theory makes no logical sense with this information, if the game is amplifying the turning signal the tests I have done would show that and have had very VERY different results. Amplifying the signal will make the cars turn much sharper, this is not the case, as the only result of amplifying the input signal is more steering angle applied. Which would have two results, a huge deadzone at the end of the input, or the car having much more steering angle when using sim. None of these happen.
I’m sure Aaron will tell us what’s actually going on soon.
Do the maths,
(wheel angle (R=right L=left) ÷ maximum R/L angle)x available steering angle = output streering angle
(45R÷450)x50=5 degrees right
Using your theory of input ramp up there are only two parts of the input equation we can change, either the maximum R/L degrees or the steering angle. Both of wich is only going to change the output angle of the front tyres.
(45R÷225)x50=10 degree’s right (wheel would reach ingame full lock angle well before the maximum angle of the wheel, creating a big outside deadzone)
Or
(45R÷450)x100=10 degree’s right (this would cause a noticeable difference in how the car turns)
The input equation is calculated multiple times per second (don’t know the exact figure) so there is no way possible for the input to be causing the differences between normal and sim without having a very noticeable impact on either the wheel itself or the car.
LOL, you take a generic generalisation of what a bug example could be, and you wonder why it isnt logical when you attempt to apply it to T10 maths?
1 was a basic example of how sim could be messing up
2. was a quote from Christian explaining how T10 translate input.
Sim doesnt have to be increasing the steering angle at all. (as you seem to think I was meaning).
Sim could merely increase the velocity at which the wheels reach the same angle, as one example of wrong maths effecting the input.
You havent proven anything.
We arent going to agree here, and we should stop. We’re really uh, dragging this on in circles.
I will say:
Knowing full well there is a bug in sim steering and suggesting there is hidden assists, isnt helping anyone.
In fact, suggesting sim steering to people, this sowing of confusion is actively harming newer wheel users to the game.
We have an answer from the dev, the answers are clear even if you dont like them. Those are the answers we should be giving when asked.
If a user choose to use sim steering, understanding, knowing full well that it introduces a bug and that if its fixed sim will be the same as normal anyway, then fine.
Expect to have to get used to normal once fixed then.
You dont know that very well at all, thats the conclusion youve come to based on faulty logic, your conclusion could be the truth, but that doesnt mean it is.
Dust, the very glaring flaw in your logic is that just because layers are turned off with normal + wheel does not mean that all layers are turned off or that there arent otherwise intented differences.
He sidnt say that all layers are turned off though. when he was refering to the layers, he was specifucally referring to input layers, that does not mean there arent output layers as well. One thing ive noticed in forza is that part of what helps controller players is that the speed of which the front wheels turns is capped so the wheels dont just snap from one extreme to the other with the flick of the thumb. Thats not an input layer, thats an output. My suspicion, although admittedly unbacked, (because i like to be honest abput when my claims arent backed coughcough*) is that normal steering caps the rate of turning, which is why simulation would be more responsive with either input method, although it would be hard to notice specifically with a wheel because you cant instantly go from one extreme to the other instantly, it would still result in more responsive steering.
The only way you could know is if you had direct confirmation from a dev whos worked on the steering system whether or not the difference is a bug, and that would involve a quote the words “it is a bug” from the dev. A statement feom the devs in only the context of what normal steering does to the input such as “these layers are turned off” is not a confirmation that there is a bug.
Also “Its been broken forever in one way or another.” is not evidence. Edit: saw your edit, ill do that when i get home.
My suggestion to OP would be to try both settings and see what feels most comfortable and/or realistic
HOLY CONFIRMATION BIAS BATMAN.
Congrats on jumping into the middle of a conversation from a previous thread that spans near 60 pages.
Normal steering is speed sensitive: You cant turn the wheels to full lock at speed. The code limits the angle you can reach while moving.
Nope, Input.
You say 50% on the stick, normal does math to calc, outputs 25% under normal, outputs full 50% under sim.
We have this information too, confirmed, from back in 4 when introduced.
https://forzamotorsport.net/en-us/news/underthehood2
He did
If there is no difference = bug.
EDIT:
T10 need to nip this one in the bud.
Come clean, stop playing mind games pretending there is magic.
Just be honest so it can be put to bed and people can have everything configured correctly.