Words from Dan at E3 I guess talking about FM6 compared to the fun style of play on Horizon
On a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being pure arcade and 10 being simulation where do you rate FM6?
Based on what?
Handling model?
Game modes?
To get an overall 10 for me a game would need to simulate more than just car handling.
However if we want to describe just the handling model then its a different question.
Overall game I would say 6.5. Handling model 7.5.
5 to 6
Physics 6. Overall gameplay & race structure 2.
Ehh, I’d say 4 or 5. The cars are physically modeled very well, some sound correct (though many features are missing from audio especially with upgrades), tuning isn’t very realistic, I can say from personal experience the Lotus Cortina at least behaves nothing like a real one, there are no flags, the race formats are nothing like real racing, the clutch is garbage/standing starts don’t work right, the rain is nothing like reality, I’m doubtful the headlights realistically light up the track, damage is a nice effort but not realistic in either magnitude or characteristics, pit stops are silly, and races are very short in almost all cases.
2 Likes
Forza Motorsport is a sublime driving model tacked on to a 1990s arcade game design with some realistic car and track models thrown in to fool you into thinking it’s more grown-up than it is. It’s far more Need For Speed than iRacing.
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I don’t mean to be rude here but I think Dan’s suffering from the same denial syndrome as Kaz.
Forza is nowhere near a hardcore sim - it is far from it, on the contrary. It has too many physics limitations, particularly on the pad, to qualify as a hardcore sim, let alone even a sim.
What it is, is a track driving game with reasonably realistic physics. They are still a long ways away from “hardcore physics”.
A sim yes, hardcore sim absolutely not.
There is no denying that forza attempts to simulate driving, and even racing a little. Even if there are things you dont like about the physics, tire model, driving, whatever it does attempt to simulate it.
Really really hardcore sim, ABSOLUTELY NOT! To be a hardcore sim you need to give people adjustability to make their setup as realistic as possible.
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Game designed with controller as primary input option. No hardcore sim would neglect a wheel the way forza has.
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Limited adjustments. No FOV, no seat position adjustment, very limited ffb adjustment. All of these things are necessary in a driving simulator. Very few setups are identical and the end user should be able to make these adjustments to tailor their setup to have the most realistic driving experience. The ability to map your buttons! As of right now if you are using a wheel you have to have an oddball setup.
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No qualifying for any event. This is absolutely necessary for a racing sim.
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Very limited event adjustments. How about proper ballast system, fuel or tyre wear adjustments.
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Proper pit adjustments like the ability to take just tires or just fuel or how much fuel. or even the ability to set up the game to need a pit. with some sort of tire or fuel accelerator. The current fuel/tire usage is pretty abysmal and even adjustments to the car do little to effect fuel wear.
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a proper balance of power system, right now there is currently the pi system which often times wont get cars in the same ballpark as each other. I know to run a gt3 league we had to come up with out own builds for all cars even tho they were only a few pi apart. On some cars we needed to give them an additional 15 pi over the others just to keep them competitive.
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Tuning adjustments. We need realistic and different tuning options per car more on pace with what is realistic to the car or the series it races in. Right now every car has exactly the same adjustments available to them within predefined parameters, however even these parameters are arbitrary numbers except for springs which are in lbs. Nearly every car can be made to handle almost exactly the same which is not realistic. A 4000 lb car should not feel the same as a 2000 lb car.
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Flags - We need penalties and flags in game. Give people black flags, drive thru penalties, or dq’s for cutting track or other unsporting behavior and i bet a bunch of it goes away.
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Draft - I really believe the effects of the draft are not pronounced enough in forza, this is the reason many people divebomb corners and make low risk moves. There is no advantage to being in the draft even after the recent draft update. Draft should give a clear advantage to the chasing car and allow them to keep up easier as well as close the gap and pass.
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Longer races supplied by t10 with damage. I believe if the races were of a more realistic length and had damage on and didnt change tracks so frequently, people may actually practice and not just jump in a random car on an unknown track and try to navigate it. This is something t10 promotes which leads to poor racing. The boast about having 600+ cars and 100+ layouts (60,000 combinations without changing builds)… by allowing any car within the pi limit on their rotation of tracks there is a very slim chance that the person will actually know the track proficiently enough to drive a quality race. So most people may be decent in 10% of the car and track combinations (doubt this is even likely) that still leaves 54,000 car/track combinations (without changing builds) that you are not proficient with. I know this is a game and supposed to be fun, but its not fun to me to get smashed in the first corner because they dont know the track or the limits of their car because this is the first time they have driven this combination together.
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(not really a simulator issue more of a developer issue) but small visual issues etc should be fixed when they are reported. There have been many glitches and issues over the years that get reported that never get touched only to return in the next installment.
9 Likes
6 primarily due to limits in building and tuning car, and because there is no consequences for totalling a car. In addition, you could add unrealistic damage and track conditions.
The game could be hardcore sim if it wanted to be.
1 Like
Yep,
Another thing i think it would need to get onto that level is atleast a dynamic track that gets rubbered in etc.
2 Likes
Everybody have different views. The game is for sure no hardcore sim. But it give a good feeling when you race against others…fair drivers!!!
You have time to concentrate on the race action and you can really be at once with your car.
The game is no arcade racers. People who say that never have testet the cars in depth.
When you play on hardcore settings the game is much more challenging. A drive with the Imsa Nissan 300Z show you that you get only fast with this car, when you’re very sensitive with steering and throttle.
Most people play the game with normal steering and tcs. That’s okay but on hardcore you get more feel for the car. I play offline mostly with everything off except man. Clutch when the car have double clutch gearbox or sequential gearbox… I don’t drive racecars or modern sportscars with manual clutch. That’s one of the points I miss realism.
Driving physics are not that bad in general the game have not enough option for fuel, tyre wear, field of view, multiple displays like there in project cars. Different griplevels on and beside racingline would make the game more realistic too.
1 Like
Forza is far closer to arcade than sim…FAR closer.
3 Likes
Agreed. As long as the game is mainly played with a controller and chase cam this isn’t even near a sim.
1 Like
^ What Eagle said. I’m constantly being rudely reminded that it’s a game. Simulation shouldn’t be doing that.
I loathe the words Arcade and Sim because people use them in a black and white sense.
With the exception of mod cards I see nothing in FM6 that makes me want to use the word arcade.
What the game does it simulates to varying degrees. To me it leaves stuff out that would be needed to be called a sim but what the game has in it is not arcadish (in my opinion) other than mod cards.
To me the handling model is not deliberately arcadish. It is trying to be realistic but getting it wrong. That does not result (in my opinion) in an arcady handling model, just a slightly weird somewhat realistic handling model.
6 Likes
1.braking line
2.racing line
3. tyer temps change temp way too quickly and revert back way to quickly
4. Tyer wear not harsh enough
4. collions not realistic
5. No jump starting the lights
6. Not having inderpending tuning from side to side
7. the way the brakes work
8. No racing rules other than dirty laps and clean, and dirty is still fine in races.
9. Racings with some cars immortal and other with damage on.
10. No qualifying
11. Still have to do required laps even though race had finished for lapped cars.
12. allowing all Assists for cars that have some assists banned.
13. no marbles
14. No varible weather
15. no rubbering in
16. No championships at all
17. No pitting options/ fuel tyers options
18. No pit stratigy at all except for when to pit
19. No realalitic camera option for replays/spectating
20. Stealing telemetry data / hiding replays
21. Rewind
22. Clean /drity laps are a lot better but some corners need work.
23. Not tracking wins at all except for individual cars
At the end of the day it matters not how we may want to label the game. We either like it or not.
In my opinion though a lot of what you mention is really sim features missing but not arcade features in their place. Sure there is not much if any race day structure but that does not equate to arcade in my book.
Having partial tuning for example - those items tunable in the game are attempting to be realistic to a fair degree. I do not see lack of tuning as equating to arcade, especially when the results of tuning do attempt to represent real world physics.
With assists my reaction is meh. To me you can play the game with all assists off so it is not a characteristic of the game as such.
To me most of these items mentioned are really determining where the game sits on a sim scale going from 0-100. 0 does not equate to arcade on this slider it is simply nothing simulated to any degree.
Arcade to me are features like mod cards, weapons, weird physics that allow major drifting without need to avoid crashing and defying the normal physcis laws etc
But like I say at the end of the day the label matters not. Do we enjoy the game? I enjoy arcade racers and realistic racers but FM6 for me just did not say “play me” for some reason.
Not a sim… Arcade
“13. no marbles”
Forza has a version of marbles. Grip levels can become unrealistically low off the racing line, particularly where they thought it might be amusing.
no.