POLL: Livery Editor with Built in Image Importer or Livery Editor Using Our Current System

I think you’re missing the point of this, yes, some people will use this feature to do that, but it’s not like they aren’t doing that right now with different tools, it’d make it more obvious sure, but if someone isn’t interested in the process right now anyway, they’ve already got the tools to circumvent it right now.

Also, making that thing will still require effort on the part of the user, but for a lot of stuff (like sponsors), why walk the same path twice when the internet already has that thing you need available for you?

Or: Something abstract doesn’t look quite right with the tools you have available in the Forza Editor, make it outside of that to your exact specifications (for example in Inkscape) and pull that in instead.

You can import any SVG into Gran Turismo Sport (and now 7), if a brand had any issue with that, they would’ve complained to Sony/Polyphony Digital already, but they haven’t.

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Well that’s unfortunately true we see them here and there and they look obvious not made in forza , but we wish to stop that since it’s not clear if players who used that kinda tools will be banned or it’s legal , i still believe this is a an advantage for pc players over xbox players who won’t be able to use that , besides what i early said about time n effort .

So it’s the same thing i mentioned working outside of forza and uploading a whole livery. In this case livery editor won’t be important.

I don’t about this , since i don’t understand how the rules about that .

I want to keep the livery sharing system the way it is, just let us import small .png’s for logos. The size of the file can be kept small, just big enough to be a logo and not something fancifull, to keep the design and art in the edits, have the best of both worlds and make the players even happier. The shapes are still used to make liveries of different stripes using different shapes snd things, I still do. They need to stay, but…

For example, just one case of many, with only mentioning just the Formula Drift Cars and the Hoonigan’s. For the BMW E30 Formula Drift car, I wanted BMW badges but the game wouldn’t supply that because it wasn’t “classed” as a BMW, so all I could do was sit down for hours and make one… just to have a small logo go on the “bonnet” and the “boot” where they should have been in the 1st place (yes, I’m from the UK). I want a Ford badge for the bonnet and boot for all my Hoonigan Fords, but there is no way I am going to sit and spend THAT much time making a complicated logo when the game doesn’t even provide the correct font to make it, anyone can make an oval (that’s why shapes need to stay, the shapes are good). But before people say use someone elses, when I make a livery for myself, I like to be able to share it with the community, but if you use other peoples work doing it, you can’t.

Just a simple .png image import while “Adding Vinyls” to the car, and while making “Vinyl Groups”. Then we can still save our vinyls and share them like normal.

I also share my vinyl groups and setups as… guy690

I’m not totally sure about this so don’t take it for gospel, but years ago when I was making liveries for Project Cars and Euro Truck Sim 2, I heard that the loop hole was at the time, that, if the game makers supply all the logos to the player base, I think the game company will probably have to pay licence fees. But if members of the public make them, and import them, it’s OK, unless they try to start making money from it, then it becomes a problem with the copyright and trademark laws and making money via uncontracted companies. That’s why most game mods are free.

I think some sort of mix between the two would be great, tbh logo recreation is just a pain sometimes but the thing is with good liveries you would still need to work quite alot, since you cant import a whole livery.
You could easily import logos wich i wouldnt mind, although i spend much time creating them by my own and most of the time it is quite a calming thing to do but often i feel too restricted within the creator and i would love a feature to draw with a pen of some sort, wich i know would be even harder to implement than importing images.

Great topic - and as a creator - something I’ve thought about in this game as well.
There are a few things at play here.

First is, and, It dovetails into the whole AI art debate too; They are tool sets. Creators will always use tools to create their art, some master them better than others, but they are all tools. Are air-brush artists, or graffiti artists considered less of an artist because they didn’t use paint brushes made of horse hair from 2 centuries ago? But wait, all those renaissance painters? …hacks!! Why? Unless you’re dredging your hands in Red Ocher and smearing it on cave walls, you’re not a real artist.

So, using the tools to delineate what is or isn’t art, or what should or not should not qualify as art is wrong right from the start. It’s the same with AI debate in art right now too. They are simply tools, and I as an artist get slightly insulted at the insinuation that because an easy to use tools exists that allows people the ability to create what they can think of makes me lesser of an artist for using the same tool to create art out of my own head. …Unless I use my grand-pappys 1895 socket set, I’m not a real mechanic. …Knock it off.

And so: today when I see people that have obviously used methods that are against the rules in game to score big-time downloads while I plod along in an admittedly ‘old tool set’ slowly building cred one vinyl group at a time - it also sorta tics me off because I can certainly would use other tool sets I can use more efficiently to create stuff than this again - admittedly old tool set we get now. When you go and search some of the things that are top downloads, and see that… and or see very simple designs out-pacing labors of love using this tired of tool set - that hurts too. No preference at all is given to the amount of work that goes into anything around here. So what difference does it make?

Honestly, I feel like sometime making the big-liveries is more effort than it’s worth. I did a 2021 LeMans Ferrari for all the 48x ferraris in the game - took me the better part of 10 hours to create every single vinyl on it and assemble it. Only one of them (Pista) has over 200 downloads - meanwhile my simple, chrome black Countach has well over 400 downloads.

So yeah, the tool set is outdated, and what some people can do, (that really isn’t being cracked down on because ultimately you can’t) not everyone can do. I guarantee you I’d be a top creator if I was importing images into the game that I’ve created else where, especially some of the things I’ve done with AI. Importing logos for liveries instead of having to create every single one from scratch to then share my designs. Yes please! So, what else then - because well, admittedly again, the tool set is old and outdated.

One big issue is: It’s clunky and fits certain controller types better than others… For instance, I am a wheel user on PC. I cannot use the livery/vinyl creator with the wheel - I must use the key-board and mouse for it to be any where near fluid enough to not take a million years. I give mad props to people using this thing with a controller - it must really suck. If I could not use a keyboard - honestly, I wouldn’t use it at all. Just like - because the Event Lab seems designed to be easy for controller players - It’s nearly impossible to use with keyboard and mouse. I just gave up. So I’m not certain what to do here with the clunky implementation of this style of livery creator… I’ve 'gotten used to the tool I was given, and mastered it as it is …and I’m good at it.

But wait - there’s more. Lets just be honest about maybe the reasons it would not be in the best interest of the company to allow this: because we all know that you have licensing deals with companies to use their logos officially in game - and if anyone can just create / edit / import whatever they want - all that sponsor cash goes away. But - that happens already - we’re just forced to use some ancient tool set to do it - and if we do - only then are we “cool enough” how does this factor?

By the way, Might I ask a question of the Developers? What do YOU use to create the liveries that appear in this game? Is someone sitting behind this editor for the hours it takes to do all this?
No? Why do I have to suffer it if you don’t… prime example of expecting your users to use tools to do things even you don’t use - so it’s no wonder this thing seems clunky and not up to speed. Dev’s aren’t forced to use it exclusively to do what they do they really have no idea what it takes to master this thing I think.

And: listen there is some really poor design choices made with how you select car colors during the act of getting a car, and how seemingly every edit to any design or car wants to funnel directly to “Share” thus - by doing this every inconsequential edit ever made to a paint or any thing else is shoved to the top of the share pile by a far too excited aggregator.

This is why I basically again quit making paints and liveries at all. The ROI was simply not worth it, even for simple single color cars that are my top downloads. I don’t want to see that some color anyone can make is my most downloaded thing ever - while my long labor of a livery is seemingly buried behind - plain colors anyone can make easily. My vinyl groups have always been a huge hit - over 19k downloads among all my shares. And - another thing - barely any kudos/likes - 19k downloads totally just of vinyls - and maybe I’ve only gotten 150 likes out of all that. At some point, people that are good and that take time to build these downloads need to be given preference when searching and aggregation of suggestions. I feel like, at some point I see something I’ve created being used more than it’s being downloaded - should start equating to kudos regardless of if the user is prompted to like it or not. And the prompt requires far too long of a time period for a fair majority of people to even see before the garage the car and never go back to it. Beyond that what you show me so I can see what is best liked - is all broken and doesn’t work. And ever has. Maybe if those tools worked - the designer would feel a little less hit-and-miss with ROI.

But - I might have more if you could actually see masked shapes within the vinyls while selecting them because almost all of my creations feature masks - but you can’t see them and cannot tell tell you put them on the car. Also - car angles in AH and selection screens for choosing designs are hard some times to ever see what’s on the car. I do a lot of stripe kits and hood vinyl - but display angles rarely show the work I’ve done, and the AH is especially egregious as simply not showing the top of the car at all. I have a highly detailed set of stripes for the 1970 Corvette ZR1 - that in the share screens for the livery or the vinyls - you can’t see any of it because of the angle of the car.

So yeah - I don’t think any of this is a question of whether or not having direct import some how makes the content lesser than it is today. I’m not going to make less interesting designs, and or not take time to perfect my creations simply because a tool exists that allows me to direct import things. And I don’t think it really makes much sense to deny artists a tool they want to use and will master regardless, for the sake of people that will simply use it as a short-cut. Because Dan can only toss an open paint can at the street, that’s the same tool you all get to create with. Literally.

The way aggregation works makes it all sorta irrelevant anyway. You have no way to give preference to the artists that take time to create things, no way to aggregate based on complexity, or if the design was made in the editor or imported - the system of sharing and saving and how you basically just shove the newest things to the top of the line ensure that real work will always be buried, no matter what tools are used to create it.

Thus: just allow it, let us all import stuff - who cares.
I’m still as a creator going to produce better work than some of the other people and what they upload. I’m not going to take less time or use less effort for designing my works. I don’t care at this point - because this system beyond the “tool” makes it all inconsequential.

First is, and, It dovetails into the whole AI art debate too; They are tool sets. Creators will always use tools to create their art, some master them better than others, but they are all tools. Are air-brush artists, or graffiti artists considered less of an artist because they didn’t use paint brushes made of horse hair from 2 centuries ago? But wait, all those renaissance painters? …hacks!! Why? Unless you’re dredging your hands in Red Ocher and smearing it on cave walls, you’re not a real artist.

I strongly agree with that.
If importing images would be a thing, livery creators - me included - would have much more time to get real inspiration and waste less time creating logos that already exist.
Making liveries ingame should be the same as real life, where you can already use existing decals and stuff and to make a livery that stands out you would have to get creative and maybe draw something on your computer, in photoshop or some sort of digital art platform.

You also would not be able to import intire liveries as the UV models of most cars in Forza would just distort the image.
Youd still be forced to get creative.

Example:
I recently did a very time consuming livery called “BLUE GOLD DRAGON”.
I had to “paint” the dragon by hand by placing every little detail by hand (wich im used to and i dont really have a problem with).
If i would have been able to paint that dragon on my iPad and port it over to forza, the single shapes would not be that recognizable and it would look more organic.

You can clearly see the individual shapes here, wich would not be a problem if there was the possibility to import pictures/drawings.

Maybe another solution would be to give us the possibility to give is some “photoshop-ish” funtions like making whole vinyl groups thicker/giving it a border.
That would hide a bit of the individual shapes.

Also an opperacy slider for individual groups would be nice.

A function for masks to only cut one or however many layers below it.

To skew whole vinyl groups (i think its already possible in FM)

There are many more features that would help out imensly, but i cant list them all.

Overall I understand both sides as i would also be a bit frustrized that all my hours that went into making vinyls would be gone basically.
But tbh giving us more tools and more freedom in the ways we create would be great.
Everything needs to evolve to survive, otherwise this paint community will die out id say.

So revolutionize this thing called livery creator!!!

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100%, and great suggestions as well.

Also, thinking about it - if I want to recreate a specific logo for something - the very first place I go look is at that businesses media kits. Where they generally provide the exact files they prefer you use if you use them, licensed or not. They are called Style Guides and they are the first place I look for official logos to ensure I am recreating them accurately as possible. In fact, I bet these are exactly the same files that the Dev’s directly imported into the game for us to use. They did not in fact re-create them from scratch or create them at all.

I have an unfinished Ford Team Racing 1600 sitting in my garage with only the livery paint scheme on it - no logos - because I didn’t want to have to hand create an entirely new set of logos again when - it doesn’t matter. It never matters… The very next time someone saves a white paint choice on their car, they’ll be funneled to sharing it, and it will bump real work anyway.

And just to be clear: I have all but the last 4 creator accolades when it comes to designs.
And those are the last two downloads and likes accolades that are simply volume based.
thus this isn’t some rant based on achievements or accolades, I think it’s the fact I have this wide ranging wide body of work that is in fact pretty popular all things considered and then I go look at people with “Master Painter” and their key to this was basically lucking out with one livery getting a ton of downloads… it’s more viral than work or effort based.

Cool Story Bro: I made a full set of vinyls for the Aston Martin Lagonda. The front lip of that car required a single square vinyl stretched and positioned to fit the front of the car, and complete the look with the side skirts and rear skirts. Except, you can’t save a single vinyl - so, I copied it, pasted it again then saved it. Of all the vinyls I made for this car, it’s the #1 download right now… over the complex masked hood vinyl. Tee Hee… See what I mean… I mean, It’s cool people are digging my shares - but - effort wise - it proves the point a bit. It’s not a complaint at all - it’s just strange metrics at play that undermine effort talent, and skill, and reward basically - luck and - being first.

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I made a full set of vinyls for the Aston Martin Lagonda. The front lip of that car required a single square vinyl stretched and positioned to fit the front of the car, and complete the look with the side skirts and rear skirts. Except, you can’t save a single vinyl - so, I copied it, pasted it again then saved it. Of all the vinyls I made for this car, it’s the #1 download right now… over the complex masked hood vinyl. Tee Hee… See what I mean… I mean, It’s cool people are digging my shares - but - effort wise - it proves the point a bit. It’s not a complaint at all - it’s just strange metrics at play that undermine effort talent, and skill, and reward basically - luck and - being first.

To understand this, you have to relate to the average player.
Most players want something simple and “clean” looking nothing too overwhelming, so they wont choose a race livery or anime. They will more likely choose a livery that is just black and white with lets say a red stripe that looks simple and takes the livery maker like 5 mins.
Its not really the algorythm being dumb or programmed to recomend simple designs more, its just the average players preference, you cant blame PGG for that.

To fix this there are many solutions.

  1. Sort liveries by time taken to create or by vinyl count
  2. Open a second tab for PGG Editors Choice liveries
  3. Search for liveries, only from creators with a certain number of downloads (legendary painters) or painters that are verified by PGG
  4. When buying a car, let the player choose a manufacur color first, before taking a livery that looks like a standard color

Also if you realy have great liveries, take part in the weekly Livery Competitions in these forums.
That will get you many downloads and even better conection to other painters and feedback from experts.

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I feel like I should more strongly make my case against importing images.

Purely from a painter’s perspective, adding on importing images on top of the current system would be ideal. The issue isn’t the idea itself. But with such ease importing images, PGG would be faced with a tsunami of inappropriate content that they would have to moderate. And every resource spent on moderation means less resources for other things, like development.

I get it, it’s frustrating having to re-create logos from scratch. I wish we lived in a world where we could have importing images without people ruining it for the rest of us. But this is the internet and randoms on the internet will always ruin everything.

There would be a real, tangible, and continuous cost to opening up the system to image imports beyond implementation.

The current system still requires moderation, but at a fraction of the cost.

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A built-in image importer would allow for basically instant logo creation, and would allow tons of people to publish liveries that finally have accurate brand logos. It’s the biggest pro of this feature, and its most prominent use in games that feature it. Copying entire liveries, at least from what I’ve seen, looks to be more difficult than many people currently think, and clearly a much more effective method of this is… using in-game exploits! Even the newest Forza Motorsport had a glitch like that for some time.
I suppose the two main reasons why an image/SVG importer hasn’t been included in Forza yet are, first and foremost, any copyright issues that could potentially arise from using some kinds of content, as if the current system didn’t somewhat allow for that; and then the much easier access to inappropriate images to use for in-game creations, which is once again still possible with the current system, only requires more time. As mentioned earlier, copying liveries usually can’t be as easy as putting photos of a livery into the image/SVG importer and pasting them on the car in the game, because the quality of details would likely be noticeably worse than on an original livery. Really, it would be best to improve the reporting system, so that inappropriate and plagiarized content can be properly removed.
With the aforementioned issues turning out to be mostly avoidable, the final reason which may block Forza from adding an SVG importer is… the game engine! The current livery editor in both Horizon 5 and Motorsport has the same functionalities as the one found in Forza Motorsport 3, a game from 2009. The only new additions are masks, livery texture slider, forcible livery locking, and the removal of repainting downloaded vinyl groups. Everything else is exactly the same - the broken UV mapping on most cars, the lack of colours other than acrylic, the grouping functionality, low resolution vinyls, it can all be tracked back to Motorsport 3. In fact, the same system can also be found one title earlier, in Forza Motorsport 2, but that one didn’t have grouped vinyls the same way FM3 and beyond do. So what Forza needs to do is to get rid of the current livery editor, make a new one from scratch looking at features from other games as well, and then everything will start to work properly!

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