Hi, I am reading a lot in this forum and felt inspired to turn more and more assists of.
It is allways postulatetd, that braking whithout ABS whould shorten thed break distance, you can brake at an later point - but why?
WHITH ABS I feel that I can perform much harder breaking before sharp turns than whithout. Maybe I am too carefull whithout assist, beacause I am not used to it - but in every brakedistance test in real live the car whith ABS wins.
Allso ABS seems to be good in competition situations to avoid collisions.
Same whith TCS. I fell, that I can react faster whith TCS on: I see a chance to pass an opponent and can accellerate at once. Whithout acceleration it seems to be slower.
But I am aware, that all those pro drivers have those assists of, now I would like to understand the causal relations
ABS is nice but if done right you can get better braking with it turned off. Instead of smashing the brakes down go about 50%. Also go to the friction telemetry and see if your front or rear tires are locking up. If its the front brakes locking up change your brake bias 5% to the front and try it. Rear locking up go 5% to the rear and then adjust it from there but thats a good starting point. Also play with your brake pressure if you would like to.
TCS is nice but it can rob you of power. When it is off you have to have more throttle control because you wont lose power with wheel spin like you would with TCS on. If its braking loose on you just go in and play with the tune. Try lowering your accel and decel on your diff, lowering your rear sway and springs. tune your damping. Basically when turning TCS off the car will tell you the flaws in your tune instead of hiding them.
Sometimes you have to be gentle. It sounds like you brake to hard causing you to skid resulting in greater braking distances and also maybe accelerate at full throttle when exiting bends at a slow speed. As a general rule as far as I’m aware, any skidding will slow you down on tarmac. This is where your assists help you out.
I’d suggest getting rid of all assists and practice braking firmly but smoothly trying not to skid on straight parts of the track before the bend. Then practice exiting the bend smoothly too with maximum speed possible but with no skidding or sliding.
With ABS on, the car skids when braking so it’s slower.
TCS won’t allow you to exit a bend fast enough because it won’t let the car slide or skid. You can squeeze more speed out of bends with it off.
some people are good enough they are faster without it. i am not one of those people yet. remember abs is basically turning your breaks on and of very quickly to prevent skids. they can actually brake better because there is no off time, its constant braking rather than pulsed. the tcs…well let me get to the point i can turn off abs 1st then i’ll try working that one out. i’m not good enough to even start thinking aboutthat one yet.
Just an FYI: that brake test you are talking about is a “skid test”, where the driver is just mashing on the brakes like 99% of daily drivers do. If you google searched if ABS was faster or slower on the race track with someone that knows how to properly control the car than ABS loses almost everytime… Same with TCS or any other type of computer aided assist. Not to say that some higher HP cars can benifit, or that some drivers prefer ABS. But if you could somehow get the perfect driver to run the perfect lap, with the same car, one with and one without assist, the non assisted car would win. We just never get those perfect conditions in real life or in the game.
You are right about it might seem faster to you, but if you turned all your assists off, and raced with manual with clutch for a couple of weeks you will start to run faster lap times, once you get use to it.
I haven’t raced with any assists in FM4 or FM5. At first you will probably be slower because you’ve been adjusting the way you drive based on how the game assists work. With no assist you have a much better feel for the car and you are forced to apply more control to throttle and brake. Eliminating wheel spin and sliding will make the lap times go down, not braking later or getting earlier on the throttle. As they say in racing, slow in and fast out. Focus on maximum speed coming out of the corner rather than reducing braking distance.
ABS / TCS / STM are “game driving aids.” While they are designed to somewhat emulate their real-world counterparts, I think it’s pretty much accepted that they don’t match exactly.
In the game, ABS / TCS / STM are what I’d call “conservative.” They kick-in a little sooner than needed, and they continue control a bit longer than needed. That’s why - in most cases - the very good Forza players can out-perform the aids.
Specifically for TCS — With very high-powered cars, the vast majority of players will be able to run faster laps WITH TCS.
There are big differences between “hot-lapping” and racing, particularly multi-player racing. When hot-lapping, you want to squeeze every last thousandth of a second out of the car. When racing, you just want to finish ahead of the other guy(s). For many, many people, they can race cleaner and quicker WITH the aids turned on, whereas they can get slightly faster laps when hot-lapping WITHOUT them. If you can get on the throttle quicker and more reliably with TCS turned on, that may very well give you the win in a race. Who cares if your race lap-time is 2/10ths slower than your hot-lap time?
In most cases, you should be able to run the same lap-times with or without the aids.
Correct if wrong, but when I glance at the top of the LB page (at least what can be contained on screen) all the cars are using TCS. Straight down the list. I just find that kinda funny actually.
That would be for very high power cars, e.g. X to S rated, as getting good throttle control is a lot harder with the cars with more that 500 hp. If the car is set up well, a little bit of wheel spin on the exit to the corner will not hurt the lap time, but when TCS is on, the power will be slashed. I hate driving with TCS on, as it seems to increase understeer to me
No ABS/TCS will be faster ONLY if the driver can stay on the edge of tire traction all the time.
If the driver is unable to brake on the threshold, he will be slower. Same with acceleration. No AIDS only benefit those who can extract that little extra traction.
Therefore using ABS/TCS, you are at the mercy of T10 programmers who designed the “interventions” to limit tire slip.
Not using ABS/TCS you are on your own for controlling the tire slip. The benefits you get will depend on how “well” you control that tire slip and how close you come to tire limits without overdoing it, i.e. smoking.
I would love to see T10 adding a way for players to see what assists other players are using, i race religiously without ANY assists, simulation steering and i convert 4wd cars to 2wd instead of the other way around. I have a hard time getting my handling cars around corners in FM5 but tons of people manage to get their 4wd [Mod Edit - implied profanity - DE] converted cars around corners without problems, many manage their 2wd cars fine to, sure simulation steering probably gives me problems but i see tons of stupid stuff pulled of by inexperienced novice drivers and somehow my car WONT counter steer. With the lack of pure
no-assist racers online in Forza i don’t think a no-assist lobby would do any good, so letting people know what they are competing against i find to be something T10 really need to do instead.
Because funner. Its like getting use to stick, youll never go back to automatic and you gain controll because you can adjust percenages, like 20% to 60% brakn and get to the peak of prefomance insted of being resrected, thats what abs and tcs do.
Well…
ABS obviously prevents the brakes from locking by disabling and enabling the brakes so at times you aren’t breaking at all. Without ABS you can have a constant high pressure when needed, the only downside it that you can lock the brakes.
TCS in the long run is good as TCS can restrict the cars cornering capability. Generally it’s fine to keep this one, personally i think the only time it shouldn’t be on is when you’re doing rivals.
the reason is: electronic nannies almost always cut-in too early. it’s not easy, but with ABS off, you can brake that little bit later. and with TCS off, you can get that little bit of extra power. i also feel it makes me a more careful driver, which means i drive better, which means i win more.
The problem is some guys are tune junkies where people like me just want to drive so they should create separate leaderboards and online racing rooms with tuning or none tuning.
I’d like to see a hard core leaderboard, no braking line, some restrictions like limiting the Tire compound and weight reduction. I know it will never happen though lol. That’s why I keep track of my own times separately.
Yeah i find that traction control slows the car down a little when cornering. The only time i use traction control is with my old le mans car. Its WAY to hard to handle atleast for me anyways.
Both ABS and TCS are circumstantial. In the GT3 Porsche I race in, regulation requires ABS and TCS due to the way the car is setup to perform. The braking and throttle inputs are so extremely sensitive, that it becomes very easy to overdo it in both cases. Time spent steadily easing your throttle movement is time lost, especially in difficult weather conditions (Like the Nurburgring, for example.) If a car is designed to work with TCS and ABS, “disabling” those features puts you at an immediate disadvantage. This, of course, is relative to race cars. Ask any modern day F1 driver if they would like TCS removed and see how many of them want it done. Modern F1 cars would run like crap and their lap times will suffer greatly. Think of ABS as an assist that manages your braking input at hard breaking. Even if you have your foot flat down, the ABS system is, in simple terms, pumping the brakes. Meaning, the ABS is doing what you should be doing if the car didn’t have ABS to begin with. As you know, if you lock up, you can’t turn efficiently. All ABS helps with is preventing the lock up from happening, thus allowing you to brake hard and turn at the same time. ABS does NOT slow your car down faster.
Grab a car, like the '69 Boss 302, and slap on ABS and TCS and watch the car suffer. Because the car was never made to be equipped with ABS, you can brake hard and apply more braking pressure, because there is no restriction or “automatic brake pumping” involved. You can brake flat down, as long as you ease into the pedal. This allows you to brake as hard as possible, without locking up. Same goes for the TCS. The system cuts off fuel, thus power, as soon as it detects loss of traction. If you are a skilled driver, you know how to control the instances of traction loss, sometimes to your own benefit, when racing. It’s all about control. If you know how to manage your power, then you don’t need TCS. Remember, the TCS is only relative to what is going on at that very second. It doesn’t know what the driver is going to do in the next few seconds. It doesn’t anticipate. If you know your car, and your race track, you know how to position your car and how to manage its power to successfully navigate the corners. That’s the benefit of taking TCS off.
I hope this clears things up a bit. Remember, FM5 is just a game. Real world application of both ABS and TCS varies greatly,
They want to reward players for driver skill, that’s all. Performance oriented traction, stability, and braking systems will make even professional drivers faster than with them turned off. This is shown in a lot of new cars like the Corvette ZR-1, Nissan GTR, McLaren P1 etc. It was also the case back in the 90’s when the FIA banned systems like abs in F1. Heck, Porsche tested a very early anti-lock system on their 917 back in the early 70s, and the results were substantial, as in multiple seconds off of laptimes. Ignore the typical users who will argue “But muh auto-x skillz I pull the fuse for muh abs.” They are dumb and think that abs is the same in all vehicles, when really they’re probably driving some cheap old car and merely associate modern technology with their 10+ year old car.
