New Motorsport Improved Vehicle Upgrade System

After the announcement of the new Motorsport levelling system has been shown it reveals a flawed system.

Game Credits > Currency used to buy cars ( Are cars player level locked also? )

Car Points > Currency used to buy upgrades


Car Upgrades > Upgrades locked behind a level wall.

Car Levelling > Earn CP by racing

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All this combined creates an overly complex unfair upgrade system for a player who spends less time compared to someone who plays more often. The system itself is extremely “grindy” with this car level farming design. This means players who are unable to play as often as others are severely handicapped in the online competitiveness.

Each vehicle takes around 3hours to reach max level of 50 to unlock all upgrades, with the hundreds of cars in the game this is hundreds of hours just grinding to unlock upgrades which are locked behind the car levelling and car points used to buy the upgradeable parts.

As suggested by Commando FM even a feature where you unlock all upgrades for all cars of a cars specification, for example “Muscle Cars " Modern Supercars” so the player only has to level up one car of each type to have the ability to upgrade cars competitively.

If you also feel the upgrade system needs changing please drop your suggestions below.

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Inside the campain makes sense this system, but online doesnt, what if i want to mess up with the car? race a higher class with a level 1? at least, outside of the campain, we need a way to buy upgrades with credits for the cars


It’s disgusting. For single-player sure, it’s interesting maybe in a lazy, player-retention kind of way. For competitive multiplayer it’s absolutely terrible. T10 had six years to get this game right, over a decade of feedback from the community and yet they ignored all of it to make this?


Separate garage for online that isn’t tied in to this grind? It’s going to absolutely destroy organised racing series from a balancing point of view to have to spend 2 hours on each car just to unlock the upgrades to even begin to start balancing cars…


Ok, so the community wanted progression, they got it now, and now they complain,

So you mean… like it is right now?
The person that has 50 hours in Car X will be, on average, better in that Car X due to experience, no change in the new system, the person that does more wins, that’s just how life works.

Also, this is their estimate, we won’t know the real time until the game is out and people have taken it apart front to back.


There is progression then there is putting road blocks in having to farm xp for cars to get upgrade points to upgrade a vehicle which you still can’t do because that cars upgrades are locked behind a car level wall…

Gaming is supposed to be for everyone not just those who spend 50hrs a week on a game. Why should I have to suffer limited car and upgrade choices because I play it less and don’t want to spend that amount of time fully maxing out a single car?

The dev in the twitch live stream said on average 3hours per car. so I’d say that’s a pretty solid estimate.


I am curious how this will turn out for a championship that we are organizing, for example. Do you first have to level with a car before you can install upgrades, that’s just not fun when it goes like this. And that’s what everyone has to do at every championship? If so, have they not thought this through properly and asked the community?


I’m totally with you.
How they gonna do things like ForzaRC in the Future?
There are already suggestions for this problem:

No Upgrades locked behind XP…

Divide career from online racing


Very much agreed.

Motorsport 4 was so much fun because we could do any silly build we could think of (within the available mods). Want to RWD and engine swap some crap econobox? Sure, go for it.

This system appears to make that impossible unless you devote endless hours of driving a car you may not enjoy just to be allowed the privilege of having your own fun later. Way to gatekeep players with limited time from having their fun how they choose.

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Dan Greenawalt once said that every player plays forza his own way, and everybody think all others play like them. I think he was right.

I am personally totally into community organized multiplayer racing. That makes at least 90% of the game for me. For career painting and tuning is unnecessary for myself. Ranking up those cars would be like work for me. That’s not what i want in free time.

I understand that career needs a little salt. But please let Multiplayer Guys & Hot Lappers do their thing.

I got Game Pass. Would be the first Forza Motorsport title wich i don’t preorder.


3 Hours per car, let’s take that number, now consider this:

In any racing game X, how many cars are you going to want to use and how many of those do you actually want to max out? I’d bet the number is not going to be 500 cars, it’ll be lower, far lower, even more so in the second category.

Even with the 3 hour estimate, i’d say it’s at most 200 hours for most people until they’ve got the cars they wanted too the level they wanted them at, which falls in line with other Forza games

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So somewhere between 6 & 12 months for a casual gamer

More like 2 months, if that, remember, developer estimate

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we obviously have different definitions of ‘casual’

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We already saw and know enough how this will work. You clearly see that the cups are built around car mottos, like the divisions in FM7 or FH games. We saw that in the demo race only 3 or 4 cars were used. So we basically know that you can’t use one single car to complete a majority of the career mode but have to upgrade and race a new car for each cup separately

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A lot of fair points, but I have to agree that the current system as advertised and shown off will make this the first Forza I pass on, and I have been playing since the original.

I have a fair amount of extra time, but it is not unlimited. I do take it serious enough to want to make tunes on as many cars as possible because variety is the spice of life, right? I do not like to use the same car over and over and over so I have many tunes for each car. Here is what this new system does to how I have always played the game.

I sign up for online races with groups. I have managed series in some of these groups, and been part of others. The “Classic Trans Am” list I put together had about 22 cars on it. That’s 66 hours of racing to find the car to use at the current estimate. That means to give people in the group enough time to get their cars going while respecting their time, I need to plan the series 2-3 months in advance.

Take the FACR challenges I have done. They would focus on a car division and track per week for hot lapping. Cumulatively I would spend about 3 to 4 hours per Division to put a base tune on the cars and send them around the track to fine tune them, doing a couple laps each or at least enough to feel that I had the car properly set up to decide which one I wanted to use.

The “Classic Street Muscle” cars division has 10-15 cars (depending on DLC and Forza editions). That now grows from that 3-4 hour sweet spot to at least 10-20 hours to drive each car enough to get to some of the most minimal upgrades needed for each. 10-20 hours of driving an underperforming car in a manner I have no interest in just to get the upgrades I need to make the car how I want it. I also focus on strengths/weaknesses on what parts I buy the most. With these classic muscle cars weight and suspension was my focus first. Pulling 3 hours per car just to put race suspension and race weight reduction is a joke.

Change gears to wanting to play multiplayer online in the hoppers. We get together and group up and I find out I do not have a car ready and available for whatever class/division/etc… they want to go into. What used to be a “Give me 20 minutes to grab a car and tune it up” becomes “Give me about 3 hours to grab a car, level it up, and pray I have enough car points to buy the upgrades”. Hard pass.

This system overestimates players interest in spending time in cars that they may be interested in, in a tuning and upgrade state they may not want to deal with, just to possibly have it turn out to be a bust and never use it again. It can also dissuade people from trying cars they may not have tried before because it is too much of a time investment. Worse yet, someone could feel stuck in a car they cannot do anything with just because they do not have the time to level up another car.

And, since each individual car is an island unto itself with those levels, do not bother giving me cars at the end of race series or for leveling up unless I can sell them for full price. What used to be a reaction of “Nice, I can apply a different tune to this and not have to bother loading the different ones” is now a “I am not spending ANOTHER 3 hours in this car.”

Everything else that I have seen so far looks like decent and interesting changes. Not having access to freely upgrade my car as soon as I buy it makes this a huge time black hole I am not interested in wasting time with.


All this. 10/10, no notes.

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Adding to this discussion. After watching a video on YouTube (Chris Harris driving that new Tuthill 911K) I was inspired to make some similar builds on a variety of cars this evening just to see how they drive when made as light as possible with engines that rev as high as the game allows.

Should I wish to do the same come October, I will be forced to drive every car I want to experiment with for long enough before I am allowed to modify it how I choose to.

As it is not currently October, I was able to buy and modify no less than 6 different cars to evaluate how they feel tuned in such a manner; all within a couple hours of leisurely browsing menus in the game.

Attempting to this same thing once the game releases will be a multiple evening- perhaps even months long- process.

There is zero reason for any of that additional time.

If a player has the credits to buy a car, they should be allowed to modify it as they see fit.

There are already plenty of class and PI restrictions found throughout the game.

And the new driver ratings system will hopefully clear out the remaining pooy skilled or deliberately terrible players from the various tiers online.

“Modifying cars immediately ruins the enjoyment of having to work toward a goal” No, it doesn’t. I will be racing all of these cars again as they are all fantastic fun. Being made to arbitrarily wait before I am allowed to make the changes I wish will not add anything of value.


Dear Turn 10…

I think Turn 10 are launching a broken/flawed Forza Motorsport. No stress is meant to be caused by my honest restrained thoughts here.

I like to own cars, many car enthusiasts do. I like to paint cars and create accurate versions of race/rally cars. I’ll tune them, buy parts, and paint them. “IF”, I only wish to buy 25 cars, and do this to all cars - at 3 hours grinding at a time, that’s 75 hours worth of play/grinding to “unlock” this way of me enjoying my Forza. That would take 3 months! That’s excluding the days it takes to paint and recreate famous renowned liveries. This really is a nightmare scenario.

If you ever saw my 2008 & 2006 based Block Scoob Gymkhana Impreza cars, Alitalia Stratos, 555 22B, old Datsun race cars, and Didier Auriol’s #06 Escort Cosworth from the 90’s - then they are just a tiny amount of the cars I’ve created over the years.

Please Turn 10 - why are you forcing this on all your install-base. It’ll force 3 months of grinding to do this. For many slower drivers it will take much much longer. Please tell me I have this wrong. This is my game, my Xbox Series X and my electricity bills. This forced nature of play - goes against the “fun” nature you claim that Forza Motorsport was designed to be. Not being able to play “my way” and buy/tune and paint cars and replicate machines from years gone by - will rob me of fun. Which is the exact opposite of your promise. Please think about this madness.

I’m not “the community”, please don’t be mistaken. I did not vote to have such limits on the way I’m forced to play my game on my console. I did not vote - to have this type of system. What makes matters even worse is, when I upgrade/paint my “INSERT MAKE/MODEL HERE” and want to buy another identical car and do the same again - then your flawed logic forces me to drive all over again in the same exact car/model to be able to do a 2nd version of the same car. It’s absolute madness. I cannot believe Turn 10 forces this impact on tuners/painters.

Surely a much fairer option would be to give users the choice/option to unlock upgrades again on future cars automatically. Whether by manufacturer or car type etc. This is so ingrained in your new game now, how on earth can you fix this for 1,000’s of people exactly like me. I don’t believe you’ve thought this through. Please think about this, please acknowledge the community publicly.

I am not suggesting that you rob this feature just to please me. For those who believe this is an awesome system, that’s fine with me. If grinding in less cars is what appeals to people - then I’m happy for them. If people have no interest in building race cars and painting, then I understand that fully. It’s a huge level of commitment.

But, don’t rob every single fan of choice. You’ve crippled Forza Motorsport for so many out of the gate. Please take your hands from your eyes and realise how crippling being forced to play this way will be for anyone in the same category as me.

It would be crazy enough, if your exact same systems took all players 1 hour for each car to level up/unlock everything for. We have 500 cars in game! 500 hours is a long long time. I realise each game has to have a theme. A single player “catch” to lure people to play and support your game long term - I do understand. But for many owners/tuners/painters - please see how the game cannot be fun for those who are car nuts and who want to own/tune/paint lots of different cars.

Long term, some people will likely be worn down by the grind involved in the campaign as it’s set out now. ***More so, for people who are less adept at racing games, who are short on time.

These players will likely use low difficulty settings, which will rob them of credits. They’ll turn damage off and assists on, which will reduce the speed they’ll attain credits. They’ll likely choose to start races near the front, so that they stand a chance of winning. Also this will reduce how quickly they can get credits and progress through upgrades. For them, upgrades will be even more vital to be able to fight for the lead. So, under this scenario - they’ll likely level up much more slowly than 3 hours?

Forza Motorsport was never not about cars. Your online stats already have proven this to you. Please add flexibility/choice to the grinding element for upgrades - even a tick box to speed the levelling process 300% would be something.

Please Turn 10, accept the real issue that owning multiple cars, painting them, and fitting modded parts to them is crippled by the game design - as the game lands out of the box.

I’m not claiming that what I suggest here, is what all gamers and Forza fans want. They won’t - but acknowledge for many like me - the game looks like a non-starter.

Thanks for reading…


“Ok, so the community wanted progression, they got it now, and now they complain”

I didn’t vote or ask for this…

“Also, this is their estimate, we won’t know the real time until the game is out and people have taken it apart front to back.”

We already now the “real time” - why would we not use the developers (Chris Esaki) own promised estimate? Those with lower skill-levels will turn on more assists, won’t hit the targets sets by the games AI, they’ll turn off damage and earn less each session, they’ll run races starting nearer to front to have to stand any hope of winning a race - all of these things will affect credits and levelling up speed. This is already set in stone in the game, we see that.

Please explain to me as an educated person, old enough to be your parent - how 3 hours for those who have less skill - will likely not take much more than 3 hours “on average” ???

I’m all ears…