"Musclecars Suck" - point of view

As these has been a lot of talk about how american (or should I say muscle) cars are “bad” cars with “huge gas guzzling engines which don’t really make any power compared to their displacement”.

Sure, Compared to modern European or Japanese cars that is the truth. Or is it?
To be honest I think we need a little perspective here.

I decided that we should look a bit further in to this. Take few different cars, and compare them with eachothers. And I try to ignore known issues with these cars (Pinto is prone to go up in flames in event of collision, and such) But I put up few notes of the cars original purpose in
So lets take few cars which were designed to do the same things in different continents. Although those continents have quite different conditions, so the cars were designed in different conditions and that has affected to the end result. Therefore when/if we start testing we could use Nurnburgring and Fujimi Kaido to simulate The rest of the world and LeMans to simulate America.
Why so you may ask? Well there is an easy explanation. While Europe had mostly somewhat twisty roads, and mountain roads the ring and fujimi will simulate them quite well, While on the other hand america had mostly rather straight main roads. Sure there are some twisty bits, but that could be simulated with Nordschleiffe too.
and start with the old and progress to modern cars. All comparisons have been done on bone stock cars as they are in the game.

50’s to 60’s
Looking at the line up, and first taking a look for cars that were originally planned to carry people around without actual racing in mind. So cars with passenger space for 5+ people. and /or same model has been sold with 4 door body.
America 3 / rest of the world 0 We can find
Hudson Hornet, Which has history in racing but was actually planned as family car.
Cadillac Eldorado, Family car, and actually the heaviest possible version of it as it is convertible. We could actually say that at the time it was a luxury car.
Chevrolet Bel Air, Yep Family car, featuring automatic gearbox with staggering amount of gears. all 2 of them. This would have been considered luxury in Europe and Japan too.

Sports cars. So actual race cars will not count. There is 1 car which I really cant figure out. Aston DB4 Zagato 25 cars produced.
Europe 8 / America 3 Now we can start comparing.
Austin Heally Sprite Mk1. Yes and all of the 45 horsepower, in sports car. Don’t really think I should even test it. Will be fast conming down from Fujimi, but that’s about it.
First time I bother testing anynything…
MG MGA Twin-Cam. This actually could be worth testing, Might give a run for the…
-53 Corvette. The first ever real American sports car. Although again we got the luxury version with automatic gearbox, and 2 gears.
Now actually I think Europe takes this one, with only 10 mph lower top speed, but it has so much better handling and gearing. If that corvette would have been with 3 speed manual it might have had a chance.
BMW 507, Not much to say…
Porsche 550. Manufacturer which has build sports cars since 2 years after WWII. (since 1947) Yeah it’s obviously the best in sports cars… or is it?
Jaguar XK120 SE. We start getting faster… a whole lot faster. This might be able to take on the Ford T-bird, But I want to see more…
Mercedes “Gullwing”, which was based on race car. Yep, I thought it should be other way around, so should this even be on the list? Yes it should, as it was production car. and not just any production car. The fastest production car of it’s time
T-bird As I said, I think it the Jaguar might have beaten this one. but then again this was first ford USA sports car, Actually I think this as first sportscar from Ford overall. and I wouldn’t be surprised if it would lose to statisticly lot worse car. Afterall the first ever is usually prone to be… well not that great.
-60 Corvette Now this might actually be worth something. so what could we compare it with. maybe…
Ferrari 250 California. well they have been building race cars, before WWII, and only 10 years road legal cars. on -57 Not really worth testing.

So Europe wins on 50’s-60’s sports cars.

And so it wins on race cars. Europe 6 America 0

Lets move in to 60’s-70’s league

Family Cars. Rest of the world 4 America 11 (Do I see pattern here? so many family cars?)
VW Beetle & Karmann Ghia. These could be compared to Covair Monza, Afterall that Corvair was designed to compete with the beetle.
How ever, cause the more powerful Karrman Ghia loses 15 mph on top speed on LeMans, I don’t think that it could reel that corvair in on the other tracks.
Datsun 510. There isn’t anything I could even closely match this car…
Lotus Cortina, “European muscle car” Originally started it’s life as a Ford as a “Large family car” Interesting, it’s one of the smallest cars in the group…(Probably should try cramming in 4 adults a mid size dog and camping gear for a week… Yep… it fits but I’d rather be in something where we could actually fit in.)
Therefore we could compare it to Corvair, which is smallest american car here. but then again how fair would it be placing this car which basicly is tuned version of the original, to a car which wasn’t even the best of the model line in the first place.
Just as fair as it would be putting Civic type R tuned by Mugen racing with 1.6l Golf. The winner is obvious. Then again the Cortina doesn’t really stand a chance if we pull out one of the other small cars out of America, This one would be factory tuned Ford Fairlane Thunderbolt, Although it is a drag car. so it’s horrorshow trying to drive it.
Ow, we ran out of european cars, so we might a well skip the rest of American family cars.
But before we do that, I saw a great big wagon coming out of America, but the rest of the world does not answer to this?
Yeah, I thought so.

Sports cars Rest of the world 14 /America 24 (I thought I saw a pattern here my guess is that the rest of the world really didn’t have enough good cars to put in.)
Lets start from higher classes this time.
Ferrari 250 GTO. 49 ever produced… it’s homologation car and nothing more. Cant really count it in as production car
Ferrari 365 GTB/4. And you say American cars don’t handle. This would be easy win for…
-67 Corvette. But there is…
-67 Lamborghini Miura which has fair chance to take a win here… Too bad that you could buy 2 corvettes with the money you spent on the Miura…
Anyhow, this needs testing.
So what did I test, I tested both cars on Fujimi. and LeMans.
On results Corvette beat the Miura on Lemans, despite it’s lower top speed corvette was full 16 seconds faster. the time was made in the more twisty section of Lemans.
On Fujimi Corvette lost the race by 6 seconds. Miura was way faster going up the hill. How ever, Corvette was gaining trough the whole downhill section, just because miura har massive turn in, and oversteer issues. Actually, I made 16 tries with miura to get reasonably clean run, I didn’t count the the minor scrapes, but quitted every time if I had big enough bump that would highly likely disable the car in real life. So miura had 16 runs and corvette had only 1 run. Can we actually call that a win? Hardly, but it is still a win for the rest of the world.
DB5 Vantage. Now this cars seems to be rather equal with
Mercury Cougar. And it’s actually the middle class car so we of course can compare those two, it’s just as equal as comparing subaru BRZ and modern vantage. Isn’t it? they are both sports cars? well sports car VS gran touring car, almost same thing.
Anyhow, Vantage beats this one. Mercury really isn’t a match for it. But hey, at the time we could see those vantages driven by average people on at least weekly basis… well If someone on your street had one yeah, it’s possible, but quite unlikely.
Jaguar E type. Well again one of these 2 seaters from europe. so only thing we could compare it is Corvette… And jaguar has been doing sportscars and race cars fairly long right now I’d really want to but there really isn’t anything similar to test it with.
Ferrari Dino Pretty much same thing with jaguar…
At this point it really starts looking like people outside America needed to buy 2 cars if they wanted to have fun, but they still needed to think about their family. And the other car was worth 2-3 average cars. America wins again.

Sports utility? I can see a pickup truck here, it’s from America Rest of the world… Nothing
America wins again.

Race cars Rest of the world 2 America 3
Ferrari 330 P4 only 4 cars ever built. but they had huge success
Ford GT40 only 107 ever produced but it was huge success.
I could call that a tie, but as most of us know, the P4 is just about undriveable, while GT40 is rather easy to drive… Well lets just agree that it’s a tie.
Shelby Cobra I really cant judge this as this was the best what Europe has, combined to best what America has. but all in all, it was American car.
Alfa 33 Stradale…did it actually ever won anything? nope… “stradale” means “road going” Yeah… 18 ever built, and you could buy 4.5 average cars with that same money… Basicly we could say it was Bugatti Veyron of its time, Except it wasn’t best at anything.
Shelby Daytona Coupe. and this is again all American, we could say it’s predecessor of Shelby Cobra, Setting lap records in LeMans… and few other races. I think we have a winner here, It goes to America.

70’s 80’s As some of us might know, back in 72 there was HUGE oil crisis and average cars were tuned more economical. so we can have economy car class in here too.

Economy cars America 3 / Rest of the world 0
Ford Pinto
Ford King Cobra
AMC Pacer
Where are all the economy cars of rest of the world, I think they were not good enough to be in the game.
And why I’m not counting Datsun 510, or escort RS1800 in to this, Well if I would have 1.3 litre version of that datsun, or 1.0 version of the Escort available I could, but as I do not have them I can’t.

Family cars Rest of the world 4 / America 2 (pattern seems to be braking… finally)
Datsun 510, loses on everything but handling to economy car
Saab 99 Turbo, I wish the turbo lagg would be featured in game as it is in real life.
Ford Escort RS1800 Truly a great car
BMW 2002 Turbo
Mercedes 300 SEL First higher class family car. yay Europe does have something.
Dodge Coronet Superbee. Well it was long shot to get it in family cars, but then again, it’s the same consept as Datsun 510, Saab, Ford and BMW has, Cheapest body which is the 2 door version, with the most powerful engine that you can fit in there.
Chevrolet Chevelle 454 Same as Dodge Coronet.
Don’t really think that we need to even test these. America wins again.

Sports cars. Rest of the world 11 / America 13 I can see so many cars which the oil crisis strangled, but then again they are here so we have to count them.
Porsche 914/6. which was so bad that it was rebadged for Volkswagen for American market
Lotus Elan Sprint. Nice car for those tiny back roads
-79 Camaro Strangled by the fuel crisis But still seats for 4 people, that’s 2 more than any other car so far in this bracket.
-71 Skyline. Japanese masterpice. won most of the races of it’s own region, Seats 5 people. Let’s see how it fares against the Camaro.
Looks like it’s tie on fujimi, and 3 sec win on LeMans for Nissan. Great job the best of Japan beats the strangled Camaro, which is just trying to keep sporting image up, and trying to be economical at the same time. Should I take the 70 Camaro in instead? Do I really need to? as the outcome would leave the Nissan dead. Hold on wait… Did the camaro (175hp/3,560lbs)just barely lose to Nissan (160hp/2,425lbs) as the Nissan has clearly better power to weight ratio.
-77 Firebird TA, Again oil crisis strangled this one,
-70 Alfa Romeo Montreal, actually 4 seats in this one… And at the same time one of the most expensive cars in Europe.
-71 BMW 3.0 CSL Homologation car, The race car was success, But can we really use these Homologation cars as comparison points for cars that weren’t homologation cars. UNLESS the homologation car was so huge succes that it continued for servial years like Ford Sierra RS500 and Escort Cosworth? I though so too, we cant. That’s why I pit this one against with that 70 Camaro, and it loses that race.
-73 BMW 2002 Turbo I could pit it against -71 Mustang. Just because I hate how that mustang handles. And what happens, BMW is left for dead.
XB Falcon. Now this is interesting car from Australian Ford, But as it uses the same philosophy as American cars, I’ll skip it
Lancia Stratos, Not bad looking and it drives quite well, But to be honest I have trouble with these homologation cars, So I call out -70 corvette, and leave the stratos eating dust
De Tomaso Pantera. Now again a car that I’m not going to rate just because it is again best of America and Best of Italy mixed together
-73 Porsche Now This is better car than any of the American cars here, Too bad that it’s not notably cheaper than any of those American cars, only then I would admit it would be the great winner of this bracket. Now it stays just a winner.
-77 Vantage V8. the “Britain’s first Supercar” only car that could really challenge the Porsche. But somehow I see a Mustang in this one… I cant help but think that IF mustang would have been European car. this would be it… Of course with the price of this car, you could buy 2 or 3 Mustangs…

Now please tell me are the american cars so bad afterall.

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no comment i dont want to sound like defeneding either as i dont care much for european cars. the end

British cars are the best in the world.
The italians and germans make good cars also but have limited personality.
As for the muscle cars, over-weight and over powered. Forza over compliments them. The suspenssion in reality would not justify how they perform in game.
They are iconic and belong in the game, also have personality but are op to the max.

Sorry for disagreeing teamate, just my opion.

Have to admit, i enjoy hearing something like this. I’ve owned my share of them. My first car was a Sunbeam Alpine (that cost me $50). I was absolutely amazed when I finally found where they had hidden the battery and it took me hours to synchronize the twin Stromberg single barrels. That was followed by a Sunbeam Tiger (same car with a 260 cubic inch Ford V8 - thanks to Carol Shelby figuring out how to wedge it in). Those were followed by a Triumph GT6+ and a 1969 Lotus Europa S2 Federal (which I finally sold about 15 years ago when the insurance started costing more than I paid for the car).

Have to say though that most of the British sports cars suffered from the same horrible problem - Lucas Electric. For those of you who haven’t been privileged to own a vehicle with this fault, lemme just say that Lucas was know for several innovations in automotive electrical systems including the first intermittent wipers, self dimming headlights, the three position switch for DIM, FLICKER and OFF. Someone told me that they also tried their hand at refrigerators (which explains why the British drink warm beer) and that they really did make one product that didn’t suck - vacuum cleaners.

The cars (electrical problems aside) all performed quite well.

Admittably, Lucas was great innovator, but it had it flaws…

How ever… Talking about innovations. General Motors Le Sabre - Wikipedia on year 1951America was leading there. Although now they have lost their edge on that department.
And if take look at 59 Chrysler Imperial, automatic high/low beam headlights as optional extra. Air conditioning as standard equipment… it’s hard to beat that. How ever those are rather luxurious equipments

Well Toffo I have to agree that the handling of those muscle cars is slightly better than it should be in game, true.
But then again, I do not want to pull out British Leyland cars in to this. Sure there is Rolls Royce, Bently, Aston Martin, Jaguar, ETC, which are all great cars. Although only two of those have older cars in this game. But let’s look at the British Leyland cars for a bit. Austin Allegro? Morris Marina? Reliant Robin? with all the quality issues they had.
Only real success in there “from cars for average Joe”, is the Mini, which truly is a magnificent car, and unfortunately isn’t featerued in FM4.
Now before you say that I cannot compare those 3 that I pulled out. you aren’t actually correct. Morris Marina featured 2.6l, 121hp engine (for Australin market) which was the most powerful version.

How ever, Lets take a look back in the 60’s and European Touring cars. Which were pretty much dominated by Mini, Camaro, and Falcon. Hmm… On European twisty tracks those American cars actually won something? Yep, it’s true.

While European cars were generally better at cornering, American cars dominated the straights.

Yes. Its a shame britain has lost its way with car manufacturing. Sold off to cheap imo. Would have been nice to see more modern versions of these classics. Reliant robin is a genius car and the true mr oddball. I have a reliant garage in my village and i always smile as i drive past. I dont think it makes any money but has remained open for over 40 years the owner is passionate for them and it makes me proud. Had a little boy race with one of his specials once. I dont know what engine he had in but i struggled to keep up in my scooby.
Btw the mini is a beast in forza 5, i absolutely love it. And is justified,"4 time winner monte carlo rally.i dont think there is a muscle car in existence that will beat this car around laguna seca. Reality or game

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I myself love to drive the muscle cars but with that being said its because I have owned 6, 1966-67 Fairlanes, 1, 1971 SS Chevelle, 1 1968 Chevelle 5, 1970 Monty Carlos, 1 1985 SS Monte carlo, 1, 1966 Cyclone GT, 1 1971 Cutlass 442, 1 1973 454 Monte Carlo, and now currently driving a Mustang GT, But hey great article

I know that Mini is in FM5, And I’m glad to see it in there. Although I heard that it is LB car on some tracks. and surprisingly that does not really surprise me.
Unfortunately, I do not have FM5, but if I would I could (and would) take it to stock car vs stock car race. No upgrades what so ever, and try it then. Mini would dominate the corners without doubt, but how would it fare on the straight bits?

I’m not really cycled production fan, but in my opinion, that’s the only fair way to compare these cars in my opinion.

Forza 5s classes are different than 4s. The starting class is d class at 400 pi. The mini starts at around 200 pi. Would be around e class on forza 4. The muscle cars are around 400 pi. Even without tuning/upgrading the stock mini would out perform the muscle.

Yes, the mini is a lb car. I have 50 top 25s with it and around 20 top tens in d class alone(hardcore). Its just taken number 1 at bathurst(well done emw simmo). Its an amazing car. Just a shame the new 1 drives like a golf. Trust the germans to take everything exciting and amazing about this car and make it boring. Then again at least its reliable, now.

Now I’n not saying that the mini is not going to outperform the muscle cars, But have you actually tested it?

Yes i have. Its an amazing car stock. Upgraded its a beast. Its like the spark in 4 but way more exciting and far more versatile. Runs #1 on any given track.

Forza 5 has its faults with the glitches and bugs but redeems itself with the mini. Also the 1976 f1 cars.
The mini and the '76 f1 cars are absolutely amazing and one of the only reasons i still play.
I cant express into words how much i love these cars. When your in 5 you will see where im coming from. Oh cant forget the ktm xbow. S**t hot.

I have to wait and see, as I still need new TV (my 20 year old does not have HDMI input) the consle, and the game… all together it’s over 800€ and I honesty cannot afford it yet. waiting for console price to drop first.

British cars are the best in the world.

lol

Lol, because you dont know any better.
They are cars out there not known to be british.
Take the ford sierra/escort cosworth. Cosworth is british and it the world leader in motorsport.
Then theirs the subaru imprezza which would’nt be the car it was without prodrive(uk).
Just them 2 examples are proof enough

No, they were.

My opinion? Muscle cars are terrible on gas, not as quick as could be, older ones don’t handle very well and are all about raw power (a large engine in a heavy car), and that is what makes them the best. I will choose a muscle car any day over any supercar, sports car or Euro car (and I have nothing against any of those vehicles, as I love almost all cars [exception being most Asian cars except the new Genesis and 04-06 Imprezas/Lancer Evos]). I also love the direction that the Camaro is going. Focused more on handling rather than raw speed and power, but it still doesn’t get rid of that aggression and grunt. I will always buy American, and the only way I would purchase a foreign vehicle that isn’t a Hyundai Genesis Coupe would be if I was rich to purchase a Ferrari or Lexus LFA.

Personally, I have had multiple cars from quite various places
Ford Fiesta XR with 2.0 turbo engine,
Volvo 240 with and without turbo engine,
Couple Chevrolet Caprice’s
Mazda 323 GTi
Renault 5 GTX,
and that list is 20 cars, and i have driven hundreds of cars due to my work in uniQ car center, and few different carrages.
Now I don’t want to bash any cars, old or new, European, Asian, or American. Even though I have gathered some dislike towards few manufacturers.

Anyhow all these cars have their strengths and weaknesses which you have to accept. gathering these strengths and weaknesses…
Ferrari. Good as long as the road is in good condition, and you never have to go in any bigger city… and I can’t go to my family’s cottage anymore… and I need a lottery win if I really want one.
Aston Martin, Actually a lot better in every aspect, I just have to leave it every time when I go camping with friends…
Hot Hatches? Great, but still cant use that for the camping trips…
Muscle? well the fuel economy isn’t the best possible, and handling isn’t that great. but it isn’t a limiting factor here.
And then again maybe I can’t get trough those back roads at 150 mph, Maube I can go only 60 mph, But I come trough those backroads 60 mph towing a semi truck

quite a bit to drink in Juggernaut, almost missed this - why is’t this in the Forza 4 Discussion section of these forums?

Actually I placed this on FM4 discussion, But it was moved away from there.