I want to see if there are any I’m not seeing or knowing about.
The ones I know about are the:
Buick Grand National (I forget the year)
1987 Ford Sierra thingy. Right hand drive one.
Aaaaaaah… Oh yeah I got this Rossion I think it’s called and I think it has a 6 cylinder mid engine.
I don’t think I can think of any others.
Oh yeah, the Pontiac Solstice and I think Saturn has their versoin too, eh?
There are the few AWD ones too.
What is the 92 Ford Escort
And the GMC Cyclone.
I don’t have all the downlodable cars so I don’t know if I’m missing any.
I only ask because this is kind of my thing. I wish there were more options in the game of this type of car.
Like I’ve mentioned before. The Cosworth Vega would’ve been cool. A Chevy Monza with a V-6. Aaaaaaa, I would’ve love to see a mustang or Camaro with just a V-6. I remember reading an article about this Shelby Mustang that he built up for the Terlingua race. Or he called it the Terlingua Mustang. It was a V-6 supercharged. I think the bigger motors came sometimes throw the balance and a smaller lighter engine has it’s benefits.
I may just have to go with a foreign jobby in the game. Like a Celica. Or Supra. Etc etc.
The Viper has a V10. There is a Monza in the game, which has a turbo V6. Other American non V8 RWD cars I can think of off the top of my head. The Pontiac Fiero, AMC Pacer and Gremlin, SRT Ram, '53 Corvette, Chrysler Crossfire, the Delorean, and Ford Pinto. Hope that helps.
Personally I think only a couple of cars out of that list are naturally competitive. You may not like them, but I have very good luck with American cars powered by V8s. I remember a very entertaining race I once had with someone in a Lotus Elise that was flabbergasted that his car was being out handled by my Hemi Cuda.
There is a MONZA in the game??? It must be a downloaded car I don’t have. Oh, you’re talking about the Corvair Monza. Got it. I don’t have it yet though. There was another Monza Chevy made in the late 70’s early 80’s. There is a 53 vette? I didn’t realize. That’s probably got the straight 6, eh? I think all the cars mentioned besides the Viper are downloaded cars that I don’t have yet.
I wasn’t real clear about it but I was looking for cars that don’t have big muscle engines. So the Viper is sort of in that category even though it’s a V-10. But you were right in mentioning it because it fit my description as I asked.
And I have no doubt that you could drive a muscle car well. They have their upsides. I like how much torque they usually make and are less finicky about which gear you are in when powering out of a corner. Sometimes it seems like you can leave them in a little bit higher gear and still have plenty of power. To a degree. I guess depending. It’s not that I don’t like muscle cars, it’s that I like other cars maybe a little more. The American philosophy always seems like bigger and more powerful is better. But I think in reality that’s not really the case. It’s just another way to look at it. But there are cars with smaller engines that perform just as well or better. And so many times the Americans are so busy building powerplants to make gobs of power that they aren’t as interested in good handling. I think that’s an over simplification of the whole deal but the fact of the matter is, Oval Racing and Drag racing have always been far more popular in our culture than road racing. And I’ve always felt kind of like a fish out of water because I preferred road racing. It’s just not as big a deal here. You can watch NASCAR on TV but you can’t barely ever see any road racing. I don’t have cable. Boohoo. hehehehe
What engines do the pacer and gremlin have? I thought they would be V-8’s. My parents owned a gremlin when I was like 2 years old. We had a road trip to California in it I guess. LOL.
The Pacer is a 6 cylinder, the Gremlin is an 8 cylinder.
From the main, “play career” menu, goto > “cars” > “buy cars” > scroll over to AMC and enter that mfg - Stop. Now, press “x” to bring up the details… scroll thru those stats with the right button (just above the right trigger).
To answer your question, the mainstream Pacer and Gremlin had V6s, but there were V8 versions. I don’t think those are the cars in the game, though.
I don’t really want to get into a discussion about engine types, but the ironic thing about your general comment is that large displacement OHV V8s have been the power plant of choice for American manufactures precisely because of their high power to weight ratio and compact size. Good luck fitting any V8 other than a small block in something as small as say a Mazda Miata.
But anyway, too bad they don’t have this car in the game. It would be right up your alley:
It’s OK if we discuss engine types in here if that’s what’s stopping you. What you say is true, but I don’t feel my statement is ironic. Does a V-6 weigh more or less than a V-8? Or should we be more specific… Does a 231 weigh less than a 350? We’ll stick with GM here for the sake of discussion. I’m assuming the V-6 weighs less. Much less, and yeah, it makes less power. But there is a trade off. The heavier the car is, the more power you’re going to need to make it go. I like the philosophy of using lighter powerplants, especially in front engined cars because I think it creates a better balance for a car that can handle corners well. Obviously there is a lot more to it than just a good weight ratio, but it does seem to be a factor.
And I wasn’t only commenting on the smaller V-8’s but you get into the big blocks and it becomes even more of an issue. I know Chevy tried to make up for this using aluminum blocks and such. Even in the old days. Which was smart. But they are still very front heavy cars, any way you slice it. Which makes it harder for it to be a good balanced car for road racing. At least in philosophy.
Corvettes handled this by putting the tranny in the rear, which is also smart. And there is no mistaking that the Corvettes have shown to be contenders in sports car racing. I don’t know how the viper handles it but I guess they have shown to be really fast on some road courses also. And I’m pretty sure a few of the Camaros that have been built up properly are fine road course cars.
One thing a 6 cylinder has going for it is it doesn’t need counterbalances, I think, therefore another notch in the power to weight ratio. It would be interesting to see what race engines out there boast the best power to weight ratio and with the way it all is now a days with massive turbo charges, multiple turbo chargers, superchargers of some sort or another, etc etc, it can get downright interesting. And I realize they add weight and have their own issues over normal aspiration. But a lot of race engines that are competitive are v-6’s. Or I should say some of the top cars in sports car racing use something other than a big V-8 engine. Yeah, some have 12 though too.
I’m sure there isn’t a perfect answer and one being better than the other. I just have always had a problem with the philosophy that “bigger is better”. Because in reality I think that’s clearly not the case.
(Since you seem to be interested in my original post, I’ll try to reproduce it)
As I showed with the picture, the average OHV V8 is smaller than the average OHC V6 in most dimensions (usually the V8 is longer for obvious reasons). There is a great misconception the American engines are “huge” because of their large displacement when that is usually not the case. Once again the irony is that the muscle car era started because the small size of OHV V8s allowed manufactures to put very powerful engines in relatively small cars.
In the “olden days” the quote was, “There’s no replacement for displacement,” and that’s a road racer’s quote. American road racing tracks tend to be shorter than their European counterparts, which places a premium on high acceleration from great mid range horsepower. Longer European tracks favor good aerodynamics (low drag) and high rpm horsepower typically found with good breathing OHC engines. So to put it all together a Shelby Cobra was almost unbeatable on American race tracks due to its combination of low weight and high horsepower. However, that same car floundered on European circuits because of its poor aerodynamics. That changed with the aerodynamic Shelby Cobra Daytona Coupes. My basic point in all this is that there is more to a race car than just weight distribution.
The Corvette doesn’t have its transmission in the rear to aid weight distribution. Corvettes have had near if not better than 50:50 F/R balance since the C1 (except the Big Block cars). In a Corvette most if not all of the engine is behind the front wheels, making the car essentially “mid-engined.” The transmission was moved to the rear in C5 to allow for a “back bone” chassis which made the car more than 4 times stiffer than C4. Another side benefit of moving the transmission was greater foot well space. However, the transmission in the rear has no real bearing on F/R balance since it is not behind the rear wheels. In fact, moving the transmission made the car LESS nimble than C4 because of the required longer wheelbase. The tradeoff has only been won back on C7 with the electronic diff.
A V6 is not a naturally balanced engine. An I6 is for the trade off of making the engine longer.
There is no such thing as a “best” racing engine. Engines in actual racing series are regulated by rules which dictate what is or is not allowed. Even then the engine has to fit into the car which makes other compromises. All engineering is a series of tradeoffs, which to me making it interesting to study to see why or why not certain compromises were made.
Dodge Stealth is, I think AWD, but has a RWD conversion if you’d rather.
also, in the game Lexus is for some odd(?) reason listed as a US manufacture - a couple of V6 RWD cars, IS 300 & IS 350.
Same goes for Infinity - considered in the GAME as US, G35 & G37 - v6 RWD.
Acura also, but other than the NSX’s (mid-engine, v6’s) most are FWD and I’m not too sure which can be converted, maybe the RSX?
Then there’s the Rossin Q1 - at the upper end of what it sounds like you’re looking for, but also American and (I think) v6. And lots of downforce, done right, an easier driving S class car.
Devon? - probably a v8 and I think it starts out in S class.
Panoz? - I think it’s also a v8, but not crazy powerful, stock -you may like it.
Are you sure that you don’t have it backwards? Wow, that’s amazing.
I’m bummed that I don’t get to see what you wrote. I like discussing this topic. And I hate when that happens too. I’ve done it more than I care to admit. I found that this little button on the bottom of my current laptop recalls it all. It’s this little button that has a rectangle with lines across it and when you hit it, you can undo your last input. It has saved me a few times from losing a long text. I don’t even know what I do when I lose these texts. I type real fast and then the next thing I know I hit the wrong button and then I think enter on accident and bam, it’s all gone. That button I’m talking about is on the right of the space bar inbetween alt and ctrl.
I stand corrected on the v-6 and I-6. I was mistaken. Also the corvette balance. I didn’t know how long the tranny was in the rear. I thought it was like that for quite a while. I understand what you’re saying about the engine being far back.
I do take issue with the size differences. I think your picture might not be an apples to apples comparison, but I could be wrong. The 231 V-6 that was standard in a lot of GM cars a while back was pushrod engine. My recollection is that it was basically a small block minus 2 cylinders. If so, it would be lighter. I think the pic is showing a v-6 with overhead cams. And as I said before, when you start getting into big blocks, you have another comparison.
Is the VQ6 the current Camaro V-6? Plus, the V-8’s on the left don’t have any of the extra belt assembly pulleys for A/C and what not. Yet that V-6 looks like it might have that stuff attached. That kind of makes it look a lot wider. I could see how a V-6 with an overhead cam system would be taller though. But I would imagine it’s not going to be longer of course. The picture doesn’t really show that either.
Anyways… You make good points.
I don’t see how the tracks in Europe are a lot longer, other than LeMans. Road America is a pretty long course. Although I know it’s not necessarily the norm either.
I guess what you’re getting at is if the races allowed larger engines, you think there would be more use of them. I have no clue. You might be right about that too. I see that Ford won the Prototype at Sebring with an Ecoboost. But I know that some of the ALMS cars were running chevy V-8’s, I thought at one time or another. Although my recollection was that was the spec Prototypes or something like that. Or P2.
Can you recommend a good Racing website? The new ALMS website seems lame. Well now it’s IMSA. It’s been one of my frustrations in being a closet fan of road racing. I feel like the info is so much harder to come by. I quit trying to follow ALMS to a degree because so many of the races were not televised. I think I watched Long Beach last year. Or the year before. And they had a race going in Delaware too on the streets. I watched that one. But most of them were on cable and I don’t have cable.
A OHV V6 would be physically smaller than a OHV V8. However, the V8 will have vastly more power potential while being smoother and under less stress. Force induction like the GM 3800 series II in the Trans Am TA throws everything out the window, though.
The VQ6 is a Nissan unit most famously fitted on their Z car line. it is quite hard to find dimensions for engines, but this is the best I can do:
The VQ6:
Overall height from oil pan to top of intake manifold…28’’
height to top of heads…23 1/2’’
height to top of front cam covers…24 3/4’’
width from head to head not including plumbing tubes…22 1/2’’
overall length from front idler pully to where trans bolts up…21’’
It’s a little rough, but once again exact numbers are hard to find.
In any case, the LS series of V8 is “roughly” the same size as the VQ6 (smaller in some dimensions bigger in others) despite having two extra cylinders and more displacement. Even the low performance “truck” 5.3L LS4 suffers only a slight horsepower handicap to the VQ6 while making more torque.
Your forgetting Monza, Spa, and the Nurburgring. The flowing highspeed corners of those tracks are barely replicated at Road America, and certianly not at Road Atlanta or Sebring.
Once again forced induction throws everything out of the window. Furthermore, racing series force different engine configurations to have general performance parity. So it’s hard to say what the “best” racing engine is. However, for the street it’s very hard to beat the price, performance, packaging, and reliability of a well designed high displacement OHV V8. Unfortuantely most country tax based on engine displacement instead of actual fuel efficiency or emissions so only a few countries of have been able to enjoy them in mass.
Delorean? it’s a V6, so is the mustang V6, (well most are V8)
oh you said that already…
oh the Hennessy Venom, no that is a V8 also…
I guess the: 1987 Ford Sierra RS500 Cosworth
and the: 1987 Buick Regal GNX
Thanks for the links and the discussion!! I would love to see dimension numbers and weights for the ford powerplants. I was excited when they came out with the newer, higher horsepower V-6 and even Chevy’s V-6 is no slacker. The one they put in the Camaro. I would think with these powerplants both cars are exciting to drive and not overdoing it for the street. And might even be good for track days. I don’t know. I do see your point though. The V-8 has reasons for being so popular. And maybe you’re right about there being “no replacement for displacement”.
But I will say this, I mentioned the Terlingua Mustang and I distinctly recall even Caroll Shelby himself saying that the Horsepower war is not needed. Or something to that degree. But it sells so that’s why he builds them. I know there is a point where so much horsepower and weight just becomes unmanageable. It might not be a good small block V-8 though. When I was a young teen I was all about muscle cars and then I grew in to liking smaller engines for some reason. I don’t really know why other than maybe I had a few cars that sucked my wallet dry so fast from bad fuel economy. LOL. They were fun to drive but then so were the smaller engined cars I eventually owned. I had an early 80’s honda civic that was a joy to drive. Just in a different way than laying down rubber at every stop light. LOL. But for me there is something about the hum of a 4 cylinder and the draw of how much power CAN come out of such a small engine. BUT, I do realize that some of the illusion with those smaller, import cars is that it FEELS like you’re going faster than you really are. LOL.
Oh I most certainly agree that the horsepower wars are quite stupid at this point. All it really does is make cars more expensive. Anyway, there is something to driving preference in how one wants their sports car. I personally, even in my daily drivers, prefer the “effortless” acceleration that can only come from large displacement or forced induction. But I definitely know people that prefer the thrill and fun of winding out a low displacement high rpm engine. But that can get very illegal very quickly unless we’re talking about a low power car. Nevertheless, if I lived in a mountainous area that had a lot of curvy roads I would love to own something like a Cayman. If I lived in Florida, which has endless flat straight roads, I’d rather have a GT500. The right tool for the job changes everything, and very few of us have the Nurburgring in our backyards.
Very well put. My big issue is I’m always the type that likes one tool for all jobs. And that’s really not feesible. Usually it just ends up being middle of the road at everything. But what am I kidding it’s all just in my mind anyways. I’ve owned a lot of cars in my day. But they’ve all just been normal cars, besides a few muscle cars in my teens. I’m not rich, far from it. And we own a 2009 Ford Focus SE and a 2004 Impala, low end model. They both achieve 0-60 in about 9 seconds. On a good day. And my wife doesn’t drive stick so the Focus is an auto. I’ve tried to teach her a few times but it just doesn’t work.
Maybe some day when the kids are grown up I can get a car to tinker with and add a few go fast upgrades and if some day God sees fit be able to take it to a track day. That would be marvelous. But more than likely it would be something very low budget. Or just our every day car. hehehehe. I think my dream would be a good solid Mustang with a V-6. I love the 2000 models because they are lighter than some of the years. (Although the v-6’s are pretty low power in those). But by the time I get around to owning one it’ll be an antique. For now I guess I can just play Forza. LOL.
