wrong classifications

Forza Horizon Legacy Horizon FH3 Discussion
1

A supercar is a high-performance sports car or grand tourer, a muscle car is a high-performance vehicle based on or inspired by a sedan.
the viper and corvette seem to match the definition of supercar don’t they?

here is quotes from the internet on the viper and vette.

Vette

“Chevy’s muscle cars were the Camaro and the Chevelle SS. The Corvette has always been a sports car.”

“The Corvette was designed as a Sports Car to compete with Jaguar in international racing. Their early competition in the U.S. came from Ford’s AC Cobra and recently from Dodge’s Viper.”

“The General Motors Chevrolet Corvette has always been advertised as a Sports car. It was designed for speed and handling from the ground up since the engineering and design began in 1952 leading to the first model year of production in 1953”

Viper

“viper is not a muscle car due to its often compared to exotic cars, also muscle cars were not intended for great handling and sporty good looks”

Both

“Supercars are speed and performance based, which both cars have, seeing how the corvette and the viper take four of the top 15 spots in the Nuremberg Ring. So yeah, they are supercars.”

“I’d consider both the viper and z06 supercars because they are faster/ just as fast as many of their European counterparts.”

I just want to have a discussion about this because I feel like the vette and viper are wrongly placed in a category that they both just smash completely out of the water. even the Camaro is wrongly placed. but that’s for another discussion. right now we are talking about American supercars. ok, let’s start off with this. the Z06 has active aero, high power, good handling, and sporty looks. all the things modern supercars have. yet the vette, and even the viper are excluded from that category. I also don’t understand why the Ford GT deserves to be in the supercar category. even though it has less power then the viper or vette. and again the vette especially with its active aero and super car functions I just don’t see their classification as fair when compared to other cars in the same class. this is what I think, let me know what you think though. this may be a heated discussion, please dont ruin it. i just want others opinions on the matter.

4 Likes
2

Yes, especially now. The current Corvette is a world-class sports car, not a muscle car (which is historically a cheap coupe or sedan with a lot more engine than it can handle gracefully). In this game, the Viper HE can be made to behave much like a top car too.

The Camaro, however is a muscle car, or that subset of them called pony cars. I know they’ve come a long way, but so have all performance cars, especially in price.

2 Likes
3

Agreed, OP. Some would argue the Trans Am and Camaro aren’t musclecars either, as they weren’t based on family cars.

4

they arent muscle cars. they are a sub “genre” as you would call it of muscle car named pony car.

5

If you look at this and don’t immediately think ‘muscle car’, there’s something wrong with you.

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This, however, is a sports car.

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6

when i look at the 60’s comaro i dont think muscle car i think pony car. which is a sub genre of muscle car.

7

Pony cars are still technically muscle cars, just a sub genre, like you stated.

2 Likes
8

There’s a lot of room for interpretation across Modern Muscle, Modern Super Cars, Super GT, Hypercars, and Extreme Track Toys. Combined, that’s 96 different car models, so it would make sense to split them up. The logical approach for Mustangs and Camaros is to call them Modern Muscle compared to Classic Muscle. Viper is obviously classed together with them because it’s American with a brute engine. With only one Car Type slot per car, then they’re faced with “Well, this is a Viper, but it’s a track-spec version, so should it go in Extreme Track Toys…” The system might be helped if it used a dual category approach, like Forza Motorsport uses both Division and Family Type. The FH3 system is restrictive when using Monthly Rivals and Horizon Presents Exhibitions and Championships, but at least with Blueprint you can pick and choose up to 50 specific models which allows mixing Car Types in the same event.

5 Likes
9

This has probably been pointed out before, but this is part of the downside of trying to put every car in the game into a single class with no overlap, something they starting with FH2 and continuing through FM6 and onto now. The previous system where a vehicle can slot into multiple classes worked better, this system has some what been brought back with stuff like “Ford vs. Holden”, “Cheap Cars”, etc. but it still doesn’t seem to be as diverse as what it was FH4 and previously. Having championships or races based on performance index is also missing in single player, I cannot create an event that is just C class vehicles for instance.

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10

You can create an event that is just C class. Just choose anything goes and C class only.

1 Like
11

I fully agree!

We have European Sports Cars in the game and Asian Sports Cars. There should be an American Sports Cars car theme in the game as well and that is where the Corvettes and Vipers belong. Certainly not in muscle cars where they are now.

Unfortunately America doesn’t have that many different sports car manufacturers hence why T10/PG went the route of adding them to modern muscle cars, IMO a wrong decision.

12

The Shelby Cobra should also be in the Sports car category…

1 Like
13

well, that’s not entirely true America has a quite diverse selection of sports cars. here they are

  • Pontiac solstice
  • Chevrolet Corvette
  • Tesla Model S
  • Hennessey Venom GT
  • SSC Ultimate Aero
  • Mosler MT900s
  • Roisson Q1
  • SSC Tuatara (I’m not sure if this ever saw the road, but it was on the list of American sports cars so its here)
  • Ford GT
  • Panoz Esperante
  • Tesla Roadster
  • Buick Riatta
  • Dodge Viper

FUN FACT: the corvette was originally meant to be mid-engined but ended up having the motor in the front due to price…

14

A useful addition would be to force AI to drive stock cars, like in FM4.

15

I’m not sure how this ended up in a discussion about classification of cars, but…

For what purpose? In Forza Motorsport this would matter, but not in Horizon. We’ve already established rubberbanding, dubious AI physics, and AI vehicles doing whatever they please without regard for specific vehicle performance. They could probably enter a race with 400 less PI than you and still be able to keep up because the PI is made up and the performance doesn’t matter.

1 Like
16

There are issues with AI but the individual cars do matter. For example … I drove an Aston Martin One -77. That’s Super GT. The Ferrari F12 is in Super GT and it just flies around and kills on straights. But if you set the race up with only One - 77s, the whole character of the action changes. I’ve seen suspect things from the AI, but I think you’re overstating it a bit. I’ve created blueprints where unbeatable level AI loses by miles, but some cars in some classes are a handful.

17

So a BMW Isetta would match up no problem with a Lamborghini Aventador by that logic

18

I disagree.

I posted in the Drivatar thread of how I Blueprint my races to remove the apparent AI issues.

Being able to force stock to AI cars will make the method even better for ensuring good races.

If we had more.control over car divisions and what AI cars could do then racing would be much better.

19

They should class the cars by their real life categories. It frustrated me that in FH2 you couldn’t race the Fiesta ST against its actual rivals (Clio RS, Punto etc) because it was a Rally Day Hero, whatever that means. Everywhere you look people call Corvettes and Vipers muscle cars simply because they are American, its no different to calling a Jaguar XJ or Range Rover a British roadster because that was what we’re known for, or calling an NSX a Kei car, or a Fait Panda 4x4 a Supercar because that’s what Italians are known for.

Another thing that frustrated me was how they called the Mazda 3 MPS a wagon in FM4 when it is clearly a Hot Hatch, they changed it to a Hot Hatch in FH2, but classed it with the MInis, Clio’s and Punto’s when it should have been in the Hot Hatch category above with the Megane, Focus and Golf.

Same story with the Cadillac in game. Now I could understand the Commodore, Falcon and Charger being classed as muscle cars because they are pumped up versions of big cheap RWD saloons. However the CTS which competes in the same market as the Jag XF, 5 series, E-Class, A6, GS, get classes as a muscle car yet the others become super saloons.

I don’t understand how similar cars end up in such different classes.

HSV GTS - large family car, rear wheel drive, 4 door, aggressive body kit, super charged V8 - Muscle Car ( I would agree, but its also a super saloon)
Jag XFR-S - medium executive saloon, RWD, 4 door, aggressive body kit, super charged V8 - Super Saloon (its pretty close to the HSV in styling, engine, power, not a muscle car)
CTS-V - medium executive saloon, RWD, 4 door, Subtle body kit, super charged V8 - Muscle Car

Now I could understand some one saying the Jag or the Caddy is Muscle car like, but they Viper, a car with similar philosophy to the F12, the SLS and in its a cross between a mid engine super car and a front engine GT car. That is pretty much the opposite of a muscle car.

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20

yeah, the cts-v was gm’s answer to BMW, and Audi with their high-performance saloons. so it would only make sense to put it in the same category. right? well they didnt. the car classes in this game are all screwed up. i know for a fact it isnt hard to be more specific with with car classes. if gm says the corvette is a sports car, then its a sports car if gm calls it a super car its a super car. many people regard the Z06 model of the vettes to be super car killers. in that respect they are competing with nissans GTR.