"Musclecars Suck" - point of view

Miscellaneous IRL Cars & Motorsport
21

To be frank, I don’t understand the point of these arguments anyway. It’s like the JDM vs USDM thing, it’s stupid in my mind.

This is about opinion. Sure, there are positives and negatives to both sides, but it’s all 90% psychological. If you prefer the muscle car side of things, of course, you’re going to see the good things in them and the negatives in the other, and vice versa. Some people like the big, flamboyant style of the muscle car, some the modesty of the Euro sports car. This is again, opinion.

The 2 types of car weren’t really supposed to be compared. Granted, the Ford GT-40 was a two finger salute to Ferrari, but the big Pontiac GTO’s, the big Mustangs, Commodores, Falcons, Chargers, Camaros and the rest raced in Can-Am, or whatever it was, and Euro cars played in the hill climbs and other small leagues. Sure, they competed against each other on occasion, but they’re still different cars. Where the lightweight Europeans had the lead in the corners, the Americans had the lead on the straights - it’s tit-for-tat really.

They are completely separate breeds of car, there really isn’t much legitimate comparison. It’s a bit like comparing McVities digestive biscuits and Jacob’s cream crackers, they are different.

As a footnote, I just want to say, I too am sick of this argument, and it may have come out in this reply as being argumentative, but it was not intended, and I apologize now :slight_smile:

22

Actually you are on same tracks as I am…

There is no “Better” there is “Different”.

23

As I have owned Ford Sierra stw, where I personally swapped engine from crashed RS500 I’d say I know quite well what you are meaning.

Even though I prefer, muscle / American cars in general, I’m not saying that European / Asian cars would be “worse” in some way, They are just different.

And by the way, Most comfortable car I have ever driven was French, The best handling car I have ever driven was German, The most reliable car I have ever owned was Russian (that might be hard to belief) The country of origin of most cars I have owned is Japan.
Still, Americans are my choise.

24

Was the russian one a lada?
For me the most comfortable iv driven: audi
best handling: mini/lotus exige
most reliable: vauxhall astra(bizarre)
quickest allround : imprezza
highest top speed :bmw m5

25

If we start listing.
Most comfortable: Citroen BX
Best Handling: Audi R8 (wasn’t mine, but as I mentioned I have driven uite a lot of things)
Most Reliable: Lada 2105 (Known also as Lada Riva)
Quickest allround: Ferrari F430 or 550 Maranello, Unless Lamborghini Diablo beats them) (how ever they were horrible to drive if the road wasn’t “the perfect road”
Higest Top speed: Chevrolet nova drag car. Topping out on 180mph, on quartermile (not sreet legal, my best with dowentuned engine was only 150mph, it’s nice to have some connections)
Higest Top speed : street legal car : Toyota Supra ~200 mph. man that those turns on straight road are tight. although I wen’t “only” 180, as it wasn’t my car and I didn’t wanna go all out as I couldn’t afford that engine, (or anything else in that matter)

Still, I prefer muscle cars.

26

Everyone laughs at the lada except the owners. People whom own them love them.
The citroen bx has the most interesting suspenssion i have ever seen. I have never driven or been in one but i would imagine its very comfortable. I find the audi a6 to be the smoothest from my experience.
That been said smooth is boring i prefer a stiff scooby all day long. Never driven a ferrari, you lucky bugger… Still dreaming of an aston vantage though

27

Well to reveal the difference between audi A6 and Citroen BX (or XM / Xantia /anyting with gas hydraulic suspension) is like the difference between Gocart and A6.
It pretty much feels like the Audi has no springs what so ever, if you have been used to any of those bigger Citroen’s.

By the way… As we are here talking about cars. and disliking one type or make… Here I am speaking how great the Citroen suspension is, as on my “never even think about buying” list starts with Citroen… And this is exactly what I mean. I don’t actually like something, but I’m not bashing it all the time. and I’m actually claiming that they have done something quite great, in some form or another.

28

Here is the thing. Back in the 40’s, 50’s, 60’s, 70’s, and most of the 80’s the automotive world was not as global as it is now. For example look at how we communicate now with texting, chat rooms, media channels etc-. Something happens on the other side of the earth and we all know about it in a matter of moments from one another on a global scale.

The automotive world is just now catching up to a global market. Yes, there have always been cars imported and exported globally. However it was never as normal or as main stream as it is now.
What was, is and sold is not always the same point of view around the world. For example Muscle cars. America has a lot of open space where we can run straight for a long time and do it quickly. (Not that Europe cannot) Stop lights were a ¼ mile apart from one another. That is how drag racing got going for the most part here in the states. Now Europe is just as important in the automotive world. However very different needs all together. Like the Mini Cooper for example. Quick, nimble, practical for its environment. Different all together yes, but when it comes right down to it is the same principle when it comes to car lovers. Like me, I love them all.

You all have points and they are valid in this discussion. Please read each other’s posts and try to be a little more diverse when you answer to one another.
Like this photo I am sharing with you. Guess what I am driving in this picture. My wife took the photo, and said to me we are driving in a “ “ and you want me to take a picture of a Nissan? (Girls LOL!) Yup, take the picture!

Now when we pulled along side one another the Nissan driver and I were civil with one another. Both exchanged thumbs up to one another. We flexed our muscles a little. ( After the construction zone of course) Then…………………………. OHHHHHH the noise! I just love cars.

Now I can give this same scenario in a Muscle Car as well. Let’s just say a 427 and an exotic in my own stable are not on the same playing field.

2 Likes
29

Well, Now I can say that there is at least couple guys on these forums that actually agree with me.

1 Like
30

I prefer American cars. in part but not only because of the names. Lets have a look.

German Cars
-Mecedes C Class or whatever.

American Cars
-Dodge Challenger

See, European cars have number/letter combinations that are boring, stuffy and hard to keep track of. American cars however have names that incite passion and are instantly memorable.

1 Like
31

…AMX!!!

32

That’s why AMC went bankrupt. That and the Gremlin, which by the way at least had a name name.

33

I’ve been saying this for years. More than that, different countries have different tastes regarding performance cars. Generally speaking, American performance cars are meant to be brutal and very aggressive. The sporting aspect of driving them is “taming the beast” so to speak. This is vastly different from a “perfect” driver’s car that responds aptly and unnervingly to each input. I get quite annoyed when car reviews state car X is more refined than car Y, as if refinement is what every car buyer seeks from their performance car. Or stated another way, a Viper is not as “refined” as a 911, but is was never meant to be.

As a side note LeMans is a horrible track to simulate american racetracks or “America” itself. American performance cars in the 60’s and 70’s emphasized strong acceleration from slow speed and not sustained high speed running or top speed. Most of the glory muscle cars were RPM limited to about 120-130 mph anyway. In racing they were heavier than their European counterparts, but the strong acceleration more than made up the speed lost at turn in (mid corner speed actually wasn’t that much less). Which is why Carroll Shelby said “There’s no replacement for displacement.” A shorter track with a lot of slow corners leading to straights of a mile or less would better play to muscle car strengths (a track like Mugello, for instance).

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34

Actually that same thing came in to my mind. but I had already tested 3 cars there, so it would have been quite annoying to change it at that point. it would have been better to do couple laps on motegi full for America, and Maple Valley / Infenion for rest of the world.

Hmm that sounds like a challenge, Although Aston vantage is worth 2 times more, and it’s built to be fairly good in performance and comfort, Therefore I admit it would be extremely hard to beat.
On cossie how ever, If you are talking about Escort Coswoth, it’s hard to compare in game as the awd system slows it down so much, If you are talking about Sierra. Well I’d say -96 Corvette GS should be able to do it, How ever Sierra would win on every other possible thing (passenger space, fuel economy, etc…) Mustang and Camaro didn’t have whole lot going for them at the time…

35

I never said they are bad cars. Just some other cars have better performance. I guess we will never have definate proof
As they are seldom pitted against one another.
Although i seriously doubt a muscle car with an inferior,antiquated suspenssion would live with an aston vantage at nordsliefe or any other track for that matter. Or a sierra cossie on infineon for example. They are iconic cars and deserve respect but they should not be compared to high performance cars. Which set lap records on said tracks for fun. I dont hate theses cars just peoples opion of how they can perform.

36

Hmm…

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37

Nice vid. I enjoyed it. The corvette did quite well.
But what are you trying to say?
Is it that the jag and ferrari were 25-30 seconds a lap faster than the corvette. Or the aston dbr1 finished ahead of the corvette 4th and 8th respectfully.
Also i didnt see a vantage or a sierra cossie. As i was making reference to.

38

My point is that according to myth and legend american performance cars are basically incapable of tackling any corner, anywhere, ever. It has reached the point of ridiculousness. The video shows that a production corvette, going against purpose built race cars, with its “inferior antiquated suspension” actually made a pretty go showing for itself in direct competition and in fact had the highest performance advantage in the high speed corners and not in the straightaways as is usually assumed.

Unfortunately, we will never have definitive proof of what the “Big Three” were capable of in that era because of the American factory racing ban . Imagine what the stillborn Corvette SS could have done with full development.

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39

There is something that I believe all of you are missing, and it’s a key point as to why the American Muscle Car is so legendary. Before you go comparing an American Muscle Car to anything made by Aston Martin, Jaguar or anything like that, you need to be aware of what the intention of these machines were. The key difference between the American Muscle Car and any modern sports car is that the Muscle Car was designed specifically for the youth and working class demographic. Can Aston Martin or Jaguar claim they have made performance cars specifically aimed at teenagers, and people working low wage jobs? I don’t think so…

To understand Muscle Car handling you also have to know about individual Muscle Cars. “Muscle Car” is often used as a broad term that encompasses many types of cars from the era that aren’t technically “muscle cars” like the Camaro, Challenger, Cuda and Mustang which are “pony cars”; or cars like the Corvette which is a sports car and Shelby Cobra which is a roaster. Actual “Muscle Cars” which are full size sedans and hard tops along the lines of Chevelle, Charger, Satellite/GTX and GTO. There is a great difference in handling ability between these types of cars, for example a Chevelle rides like a boat; it has soft suspension that provides a comfortable ride. The Camaro as a pony car (partially sports car) has a more rigid suspension, lighter and handles better… And the Corvette which has a lower center of gravity, lighter than the Chevelle and Camaro with it’s fiberglass body, and independent rear suspension makes it a superior handling machine over the Camaro and Chevelle. And to stack on top of that was tire technology of the time which further hampered the handling performance of any car. Bias ply tires would loose their “footprint” or traction surface as the tire tread warped during corners.

On power to displacement ratios, the actual numbers produced by Muscle Cars of the era are a bit of a mystery. For example the 1970 SS Chevelle with a 454 LS6 engine was rated from factory at 450 BHP and 500 feet pounds of torque, but this was using the SAE gross method. SAE gross is the engine on a stand without accessories like a full exhaust, air filter, AC and etc… Which means as installed these engines didn’t actually produce these advertised numbers, the 454 LS6 engine as installed would actually produce around the order of about 390 BHP estimated. In 1971 the Muscle Car output figured took a one-two punch between emission regulations and now the requirement to use SAE net method (engine on stand fully dressed, more accurate to “as installed”) and you’d see numbers drop from 400 to 320 as an example.

And addressing these super low figures produced by Super Chevy Magizine Chevrolet Muscle Car Dyno Wars and shows like Top Gear, it needs to be recognized that these tests were done with a chassis dyno where power loss through drivetrain (and other factors such as brake drag) can be upwards of 15% or more, while automotive manufacturers still use SAE Net ratings for their engines. How-To - Car Improvement | DIY Cars | Car Work | Car Care

But the Muscle Car engine isn’t exactly a lie, they’re just a “half truth” so to speak, the rumors that many muscle car engines were under rated has truth to it. Engines like the 426 Hemi, the 454 LS6, and the 427 CJ and countless others were actually capable of achieving numbers that surpassed their advertised rating without any modifications to the engine’s internals. For example, Chevrolet’s aluminum 427 ZL1 engine, famous in the COPO and Yenko cars. Rated at 425 HP, as installed closer to 375 HP, replacing the manifolds with headers jumped the engine up to 419HP, removal of the air filter, air pump and alternator put the engine up to 447 HP. Rejetting the carb, adjusting the timing and removing the exhaust pushed the engine up to 523HP.

Finally, fuel economy… I won’t argue against the fact that they’re gas guzzlers. But a person needs to consider how these cars were built, most Muscle Cars were built purely for acceleration and as such most had low gearing and almost none had anything like overdrive. Gasoline back then wasn’t as good as it is today either, it had a higher octane rating and lead but that was about it, today’s gasoline has additives which helps boost fuel economy. If someone were in the process of restoring a muscle car, and if they added an overdrive transmission and more reasonable driving ratios, as well as tuning the engine to run better with today’s fuel; it’s entirely possible to get a car that once had 8 MPH in it’s day into the high teens and even up to 20 MPG highway depending on the car.

40

That’s why I’m using the term “American Performance car” in oppose to “muscle car.” Muscle car, actually has a very specific meaning, as you say, but most people use it in a very broad sense, which can cause confusion.

Also you are quite right. It is ludicrous to compare an expensive European exotic to what was essentially the Civic Si of the day. The fact that they can even be compared speaks to the aura and performance of the hi po muscles cars. If muscle cars are so simple why, to this day, has no European or Japanese marque built a car of comparable performance at a similar price?

1 Like