Why would you give an advantage to those who turn the anti brake system off? This is simply not true and not how the system works. The system was invented to keep people from locking their tires when under heavy braking. Under no circumstance in real life does the ABS system give you less braking than having it off.
Why did you do this Turn 10? This is seriously pissing me off as a simulation racer. The ABS system was invented for a REASON, it’s efficient and it works. I was wondering why my brakes continuously failing 24/7. Brakes were not made to fail like they do in this game. I can even provide video evidence of this if need be. This is not a skill issue, the game is flawed.
I’ve been playing racing games since 1997, this is bull.
ABS is an assist in this game for the same reason that driving with automatic or manual without clutch makes you several seconds a lap slower than those who drive without ABS and shift manually with the clutch.
ABS is meant to be an assist, aka the game will hold hands with you while you brake. This has been the case since the very first Forza.
Learn to drive without ABS and you will never look back.
The OP is correct though and if anything a lap with ABS on should be quicker. All it is supposed to do is apply the correct amount of pressure to the individual brake per wheel based on the situation it finds itself in and on lockup pulse so you don’t end up on your ear. Early cars in the game should have it as assist option maybe but all later model cars should be fitted as standard. But not fade like it does in the game and some cars you cant even upgrade the brake system to help.
Sorry but you too do not properly understand ABS. The system will not allow the wheel to lock because it if does it is already to late and recovering from a lock require longer distance for the wheel to regain some tracking. To prevent it from happening the system are all setup to start pumping earlier than potential locking points. There’s sensor to all 4 wheels and if it sense just a slight difference in wheel rotation, meaning a wheel is about to lock or spin, the system start to engage on some or all wheel then. At that point you are still in control of the car but braking suffer because your wheel are not at the edge of locking and are allowed to turn more than if you were limit braking. It will slow you down under braking on any car just because of that.
See me I try to race the cars as close to the series they run in. For instance I know Formula 1 does not allow ABS or TCS but many GT series do allow it. I’m not sure on Indycar I would have to look it up. I know they do not have power steering. Now Stability Management I don’t think any series allows and it is unwanted anyway.
You can take any aspect of the game and bend it to be a negative if you wish. If you’re picking out something like this to bother you, I can’t imagine what all the bugs and issues the game still has do to you.
In game, disengaging ABS requires more skill, so it’s rewarded. That’s all.
It is not realistic. This is my problem. I am completely unhappy with this game not being realistic. I am unhappy that my brakes are failing 24/7 with ABS on that was made to brake more efficiently with it off. Do I need to make a video of this? That is a waste of my time when you can just test this for 2 seconds and come to the conclusion that your brakes fail. You can google this.
The entire purpose of ABS is to maintain steering while braking, you brake at the same speed, usually faster, than someone without ABS. This is stupid, I’m tired of my brakes failing. I can stop on a dime with ABS off to the point where the braking line is 100% worthless, but with it on I go past the braking line every single time if I stop on it with most cars. That makes NO sense. That’s not how cars work. ABS is more efficient.
You may not be okay with this, but if you read previously, Forza’s ABS system has been as it was since Forza Motorsport on the original Xbox, and I have not seen anyone go on a tyrant on one small assist until I saw this thread and your replies.
And also, this is a video game. I repeat, a video game. All of your ranting on about engineering and providing us a free lecture on how ABS works will have the same effect as me going to a cemetery and screaming for dead people to wake up.
No it has not been. i have played FM1,2,3,4, and 5. In NONE of these forza games was the ABS worse than not using in. In fact, it was WORSE to not use it because you’d lock your tires 24/7 for the same or less braking distance. It was not 40% better. I was not missing corners 24/7 from my brakes giving out and failing. This isn’t how brakes work at all.
If you read my first reply to you, I stated that the key to braking without ABS and not locking your tires was not to mash the trigger all the way down, which is clearly the reason why you’re relying so much on ABS.
Just like Gran Turismo, Project Cars, Assetto Corsa, Grand Theft Auto, all these games that boast of realism… at the end of the day, it’s a game. Not real life.
If we look at how Forza works, ABS doesn’t lock up the brakes, yes. But brake power is probably compromised because of ease of use (you can simply jam the left trigger all the way down without much thought except for braking distance).
Without ABS, you now have to worry about not locking up the brakes whilst trying to figure out the braking distance to take the curb, so you have to be careful at how much pressure you apply to the left trigger. So the devs probably added some extra braking power to reward those who can use non-ABS properly. (Plus, ABS is banned in many racing series so drivers rely more on skill than electronics to slow down in time for a corner)
I think if the developers actually did some R&D on how ABS actually works and implemented it into Forza, it would lower the difficulty of the game and take away the challenge of using non-ABS brakes.
I’m just going to say that I am not okay with this, this is the first racing game that I have ever played that has done this. If you take ABS off you are competing for the hardcore leaderboards. That is fine. But that’s not how it works.
As if in the brakes literally fail, this is why people keep ramming you from behind 24/7, because they can’t stop. Do you see how fast you stop with ABS off? You are supposed to stop at the same speed with ABS on but you don’t. In fact, your braking distance is about 40% more with ABS on. That’s how stupid it is and why I’m so pissed. That’s not how it works. ABS is more efficient. Even the most skilled drivers can BARELY match ABS, especially not the ABS systems that we have today for street uses.
All you have to do is go do an in-game test with several cars and see if you can stop on the braking line. Then take ABS off. The difference is astounding and is fake.
Actually if you read those links it does. Without ABS you can stop quicker. This IS accurate, and I will explain.
ABS is designed to give you the ability to steer while you are braking. The system applies your brakes on and off very quickly so that you don’t lock up your tires, by doing this there is traction left over to allow you to steer. If all of your traction isn’t being spent on braking your braking distance will increase.
Without ABS you are able to do something called threshold braking. Threshold braking is applying the brakes as much as possible without locking up the tires. This is the fastest way to stop all of your traction is being used to stop, so if you try to steer you will skid. Without ABS you can control 100% how much traction you want to use for braking. With ABS the system will always try to save you some traction in case you want to steer and will NOT get to your traction threshold.
You failed to read those links properly and one of them had a typo, he stated that ABS is better then made a typo on the website which I would be more than happy to point out to you if you’d like, ABS stops you faster because it applies the maximum braking force possible and maintains contact with the road. DO I need to post this directly on this thread over and over and over again because I will if I have to.
Here’s a long description as to why:
The whole point of braking is to dissipate kinetic energy. Not the kinetic energy of the wheel as you said, but the kinetic energy of the car, even though you may do that through transmission to the wheel. Some trucks or busses actually brake by transforming part of their KE into electricity, which may sometime be reused, or is dissipated into heat as eddy (or Foucault) currents.
However, the most common way to dissipate kinetic energy is friction. In the case of cars there are two possible frictions : bretween the brake and the wheel (not the rubber itself hopefully) and between the rubber and the road.
But there is energy dissipation only if there is motion with (kinetic) friction creating a resisting force (in the case of friction braking). The word kinetic is in parentheses, because it may require some further precision (see below).
When the car is rolling normally, there is no (or marginal) kinetic friction because the wheel is at rest relative to the road in the contact part. If you brake, this may no longer be true, because the wheel may not turn fast enough. On some surfaces, like a wet road (but apparently not all surfaces) the friction is more important if the speed of the wheel part in road contact is not too important relative to the road. Beyond a certain speed, the tire can even sort of surf on a thin layer of water, and the friction goes down, thus dissipating less energy. This happens much faster if you block the brakes.
So, with the brakes blocked, there is no energy dissipated by friction in the brakes, and the wheels may be skidding too fast to dissipate energy efficiently. Hence, it take a longer time to dissipate, meaning a longer time to stop.
The ideal situation is dissipating energy both in the brakes and in the rubber. But that is not easy to attain, because the static friction coefficient is usually greater than the dynamic coefficient. As soon as the wheel starts slipping, the friction reaction force of the wheel that preserved some motion in the brakes may become too low for the brakes to allow for motion, and the brakes block, no longer providing any dissipation, and increasing further the skidding speed of the wheel.
ABS prevents blocking the brakes by removing briefly the friction, and allows the wheels to turn some, so that the relative speed of their contact with the road does not get too high.
But why should it work on a dry road ? According to Wikipedia, there is another phenomenon to be considered. The transition from static to dynamic friction coefficient is not a discontinuous phenomenon. Apparently the “maximum braking force is obtained when there is approximately 10%-20% slippage between the braked wheel’s rotational speed and the road surface”, beyond which “rolling grip diminishes rapidly” to kinetic friction. So that is where the heat dissipation is at its maximum, since maximum dissipation requires maximum motion with the greatest motion compatible friction (actually, it is the product that is to be maximized). The role of ABS will be to let go when the slippage becomes too important so that the slippage remains in the optimal range (in addition to above issues).
But apparently some surfaces behave differently, and ABS may actually brake more slowly. I would guess that this is due to the specific properties of the function that relates the friction force and the slippage speed for that kind of surface in contact with rubber wheels. But on such surface, the advantage of keeping better control of the car, by slipping less, is also an issue.
Another role of ABS systems is to distribute the braking effort between front and rear wheels. Front and rear wheels have different internal pressure, thus different contact surface with the road. They are also subjected to different forces as the car is braking (more force in the front), so that the friction coefficient acts more effectively where the force is greater. Hence slippage control has to differ in the front and in the back. It may also balance left and right if for some reason the two sides behave differenlty.
A last issue was actually raised by @tohecz. Where should the energy be dissipated, or according to what ratio between brakes and rubber-road? His opinion is that it should be in the braking system, not in the wheel-road contact. I did not find any information stating that, if there is a choice, it should one more than the other, but it may indeed be preferable to spare the tires (I do not really know). It is however worth considering the issue and the degree of freedom of choice.
We can analyze somewhat this ratio by considering extreme cases. If you block the wheels (assuming no ABS), no energy is dissipated in the brakes. Thus it is all dissipated in the rubber-road contact. On the other hand, if you brake slowly, the wheels surface remains in static contact with the road (no ABS needed) and all the energy is dissipated in the brakes. This runs contrary to some belief that violent braking could heat the braking system: frequent and slow braking will, while violent braking without ABS will heat and wear the rubber.
So the question of the ratio, with an ABS system, occurs really only when you brake strongly enough so that wheel slippage will occur and the ABS can be used to control it. Here a proper analysis would really require working on actual figures, as there are many possible scenarii.
It should be the case that optimal braking, with fastest energy dissipation, will impose a precise pressure on the brakes resulting in a precise dissipation ratio between brakes and rubber. However, given the hiccup behavior of ABS system, this corresponds probably to an unstable setting requiring a dynamic control of the pressure so as not to leave the optimal dissipation zone. I did not find any information about this ratio.
If the pressure on the brake pedal does not indicate urgency for fast braking, the ABS system can probably choose, according to its programming, what king of pressure to apply, and when, so as to determine where most of the energy will be dissipated, between brakes and rubber. But there does not seem to be much public information on that.
A last remark is that the choice of optimal pressure for whatever result is desired should also depend on the current speed of the car. It is probably hard to get any slippage from a very slow car. Hence the process has to be dynamically controled for that reason too.
Note: In this analysis of ABS braking, the careful reader will have noticed that I talk of forces, when actually it should be torques in many cases. My reasons for doing this are the following :
the main issue is friction and friction forces, which become torques because of the structure of the devices considered;
talking of torque would necessarily require the description to introduce size considerations (wheel and brakes radius), which would complicate the analysis without bringing in any essential insight regarding ABS;
this is just a qualitative analysis, without using any actual figures. Developping complete formulae would of course require to bring in size issues, and to consider torques. But I deemed simpler not to do it here.
This is the literal science applications behind the ABS system. Science does not lie. There is no real effective way to brake faster than ABS on pavement. ABS maintains your traction to the maximum. That’s the entire point of the system. To say anything else about today’s ABS is incorrect. You cannot maintain maximum traction which reduces braking distance better than a computer that makes the EXACT calculations for you.
It’s like trying to beat a super computer at chess or do math faster than a calculator.
Well you just gave the answer to your dilemma right there. The first paragraph outline what limit braking, or also referred as threshold braking, is. That IS the ideal situation and therefore the best way to brake when stopping distance is important
The second line, basically explain again why ABS will not be the ideal situation because it ALLOW THE WHEEL TO TURN SOME, allowing the wheel to turn = travel distance. Of course allowing the wheel to lock also increase travel distance therefore being in between those two, ideal situation, is being at the limit (threashold) and brake shorter.
The game is probably not perfect depicting ABS, I admit I never used it because every time it made me slower, but regardless of the imperfection of the simulation of ABS the fact that someone, or yourself, are faster without it is correct both in game and in real life.
