FFB, is it fixed? UP: [PC] Thank the gods, Pray for [XBOX]

[ThaJay236]

@Dan the Dartman

I don’t know how to link or copy other thread posts

You can find the link to a specific post in the post number, so rmb the #1234 and copy url.

I would like to thank Dust for a great post / thread.
Also T10Driver, Dan and Blue for your awesome contributions.

FM7 is going to be great!

[oogravyoo72]

Appreciate it Dust!

[DUST2DEATH]

@Crash,

If you have followed the thread, moving to simulation introduces a bug when it shouldnt.(and has done so since 4). Has nothing to do with the FFB itself.

[DUST2DEATH]

Ive updated the OP, here is a copy for those mid thread. If Ive missed anything let me know. Ive tried to condense it all down to questions and answers.

Is the FFB fixed? No.
Self aligning? Yes.

What steering mode should I use?
Normal.

@T10Driver

There are multiple systems layered together to create Normal steering. Forza is known for being controllable and natural on a gamepad and these system are a major component of that feeling. While I won’t explain every system involved I will say that Simulation Steering turns these systems off. I’ll also confirm that the input layers of these systems are turned off any time you use a wheel, regardless of the steering setting.

Why does sim steering have an effect?
Bug.

@T10Driver

Still looking at this one. There’s no difference in the FFB code or tuning for these functions.

Soft locking is a thing in FM7 now?

@T10Driver

We’re working toward soft locking with the ultimate goal being to leave your DOR at max and handle lock through the game.

Custom mapping bug:

@T10Driver

This is a very high priority for us. It isn’t exclusive to the Elite and may be the cause of several issues seen here.

Heusinkvelds Users:

@T10Driver

We didn’t have a set of Heusinkvelds to try but we will now. I have a set on their way and we’ll look into this.

Weak FFB from Generic Profile:

@T10Driver

@FirstPlatoLV

The problem is that the default profile which is used whenever there is a device that has no built-in profile has very conservative values for FFB which often cannot be compensated by increasing values for FFB in-game. This might be the reason why some users who use wheels which do not have built-in profile, suffer from weak FFB effects, simply because the default profile has comparitely low values for FFB.

Thanks. We found this issue at the same time as you and will be fixing it.

Wheel Pulls Left Bug:

@T10Driver

I’ve looked into the left pull in rumble (specifically the one in the video) and we understand where it’s coming from. We’re investigating why that force would increase with time. What firmware are you on? The issue with the G920 is very different.

Idling Oscillation Bug:

@T10Driver

@EpicEvan777

Yeppers I am having the same issue. I linked a video that I took on my phone of it happening in action. Luckily it happened when I was in the menus and when I had my hand on the wheel. From experience with FM6, when driving, the pulling glitch usually occurs just after you either go over a curb or after you start braking. Video is down below. Sorry for the bad quality / audio, I just wanted to take a quick video in the moment…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKVTl0Js-aU

We’re aware of this one. It’s surprisingly difficult to reproduce in house. I’ve only seen it by leaving my game/wheel idling for several days. We are looking into it along with the G920 issue. The commonality here seems to be that they always pull left.

Note:

@T10Driver

Hello everyone. My name is Aaron and I’m a designer at Turn 10. I’ve read several of the concerns here and wanted to address as many of them as possible.

A few quick notes that apply specifically to PC users

• Please update both your firmware and drivers to the latest versions approved by your wheel manufacturer. Over the development of FM7 we worked closely with wheel manufacturers to ensure our game worked with their wheels correctly. In some cases this required driver and/or firmware updates. A list of officially supported drivers will be up soon but for now it’s best to search the manufacturer site for your specific wheel.
• In the case where your wheel has an Xbox mode it’s best to install the driver and run it in PC mode. While it will work in Xbox mode with Forza Motorsport 7 on PC the experience will be better in PC mode as you can tune the driver settings to your liking.
• Specific to Thrustmaster devices on PC please use a USB 2.0 port. The Thrustmaster driver appears to have issues with USB 3.0/3.1 recognition. This issue is ubiquitous across all games and not specific to FM7.
• The tuning in Forza Motorsport 7 was done using the out-of-box settings for all wheels. If you have driver or wheel settings from another title it’s suggested that you start with the defaults and tune to your liking.
• While the Forza Horizon 3 settings menu appears the same the underlying force feedback is not. It’s best to start from scratch.

Known issues we’re working on

• The steering axis inside deadzone should be 0.
• Outside deadzones for functions mapped to a button display a spurious value
• Force Feedback Understeer and Force Feedback Minimum Force sliders produce minimal change
• Steering Sensitivity should engage soft locks instead of altering linearity. I’d strongly suggest setting your DOR in your driver settings.

Let’s keep it clean and keep the feedback coming. If you try your wheel and make a comment in here it’d be appreciated if you post your setup, driver and firmware. We are committed to an accurate, tactile and enjoyable force feedback experience. Objective and detailed feedback is appreciated.

@Blue028

Thought this might be of some use, its a better/more accurate description of advanced settings thanks to Aaron.

Vibration scale: controls the scale of haptic vibration
FFB scale: controls the scale of combined trail feedback and dynamic forces
Steering sensitivity: Adjusts the DOR with a soft lock
Steering linearity: Adjusts the linearity curve of the steering input, higher makes it more sensitive around center/less sensitive at full lock, lower values make it less sensitive around center/more sensitive at full lock. 50= linear
FFB understeer: this scales the aligning torque from machanical trail, lower values increase its affect, higher values reduce its effects giving a higher feel for understeer (ffb drop off)
FFB minimum force: scales the aligning torque from pneumatic trail (on my setup lower values increase the aligning force from pneumatic trail and higher values decrease it) default value gives unscaled pneumatic trail ffb data
Damper scale: adjust the weight of the wheel
Center spring scale: the spring is the force pulling the steering wheel toward center; that is to say gravity through caster, KPI and scrub radius. This force is overcome at speed through pneumatic and mechanical trail, the causes of align torque. It’s an active force in Forza Motorsport 7 and at racing speed it’s very minimal.

Some extra info

Mechanical trail: this is the distance the center of the wheel trails behind the steering axis and is the main cause of aligning torque

Pneumatic trail: as the tyre deforms and stretches with speed the contact patch of the tyre trails behind the centre of the wheel and gives extra aligning torque

@T10Driver

If the goal is raw trail the community is very much on the right track. Setting the damper and spring to 0 removes most of the tricks. Reduce rumble until you can barely just feel it. Reducing Force Feedback Understeer will increase the trail effects and contribute to oversteer feel. 0 is okay here but may be excessive for some. At 0 a good drifter should be able to link turns without touching the wheel, it’ll just follow through. FFB Understeer is working, it’s just very subtle and masked by other forces.

Try leaving FFB minimum at the default setting. This will, roughly, give you pneumatic in raw. FFB Minimum alters the ramp-up of pneumatic trail (somewhat counterintuitively) . Turning it down all the way is almost like having a flat tire; high forces at low lateral loads.

I’m looking at the center feel and have identified a couple areas where we can calculate it better. Noted. Thanks.

@T10Driver

Somewhat simplified here but the game sends the wheel a normalized torque value. In general, the wheel processes that value as a scale of its total available torque. In a pure linear wheel with no tricks this torque is what you get. Some wheels and drivers may scale that value (FF) or add to it (dampers and springs) depending on your settings. This is what happens with Fanatecs FF setting.

I noted it earlier but it may have been buried. The FFB setting in game isn’t an overall gain setting. It’s specific to the align torque function and strongly related to both the understeer dropoff and oversteer feel/follow through. It also scales rumble outputs. You can set your wheel wherever best suits you. I generally suggest setting the game FFB high and use the wheel for gain. This retains as much align torque as possible.This may be why some people prefer such small spring and damper values, as moving all three values is analogous to reducing gain.

NORMAL STEERING IN GAME

FANATEC USERS:

Specific to Fanatec on Xbox or PC in Xbox mode (green ring), high FF values scale torques up substantially and will cause clipping. If you run a Fanatec in Xbox mode I recommend setting the wheel FF around 35 as a starting point.

Wheel Control Panel/On Wheel settings should be at 900, forces as below

50% in TM Control Panel = 80% strength. (Its hot where I live, motor preservation).

@DUST2DEATH

T500RS - PC (no on wheel config) connected to a [Inateck USB3.0 PCIe card](https://www.amazon.com/Inateck-Superspeed-Ports-PCI-E-Expansion/dp/ **** 6ZCNGM/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1505870646&sr=8-15&keywords=inateck) - powered via PSU.

NORMAL STEERING!!

my Settings:
All deadzones 0 - 100, clutch 0-0.
Vibration: 100
FFB Scale: 90
Steering Sens: 100
Steering Lin: 50
FFB Understeer: 0
FFB Min force: 80
Wheel Damper:0
Center spring:0

NOTE BELOW:

@T10Driver

• The center strength of align torque falls into the Force Feedback slider. This is where align torque lives and where the Force Feedback Minimum and Understeer values are intended to help. Our align torque has always come from our extensive tire tests and was defined as the pneumatic trail of the tire. One of the largest changes this time is the addition of mechanical trail. Mechanical trail doesn’t diminish as much as pneumatic trail at break-away. This is the missing magic force that makes the wheel follow through in oversteer and we touched on it slightly in FH3 but it was overrun by the spring. It’s a double edged sword; more mechanical trail means more subtle feeling at the edge of understeer since there is now another force beyond peak slip angle. Basically, we’re trading understeer feel for oversteer feel. Force Feedback Understeer is intended to allow you to find your balance between understeer and oversteer. At the moment, it isn’t working as intended.

This brings me to my final point. In working with the Elite I discovered an issue with custom mappings which in some cases is turning off force feedback. The forces you’re experiencing may be coming entirely from your wheel and not at all from the game. We’re looking into this now.

Adjust further to liking.

[Naizarak]

very nice summary

[DylanDrog]

Ye but now please stop multiquoting

[T_REX_5753]

@DylanDrog

Ye but now please stop multiquoting

He put all the info in one post so people don’t have to read a bunch of pages,you should be thankful!!!

[DylanDrog]

@T_REX_5753

He put all the info in one post so people don’t have to read a bunch of pages,you should be thankful!!!

Ye thanks. Now the forum is more enjoyable with a phone…
Really thanks

[Rod_Runner_67]

@DylanDrog

@T_REX_5753

He put all the info in one post so people don’t have to read a bunch of pages,you should be thankful!!!

Ye thanks. Now the forum is more enjoyable with a phone…
Really thanks

It’s your own problem/fault… Not the problem of people posting here and giving their time to help us make the game better. Stop spamming with your out of subject post please because you make all the members lose their time with that… and not just on phone!

Great work Dust, Dan, Blue and all other i forget for bringing a lot to the community on their free time. Thanks guys.

[Ialyrn]

Great work on the post Dust, should hopefully be fairly useful for wheel users tonight when the ultimate edition unlocks.

[T_REX_5753]

@Ialyrn

Great work on the post Dust, should hopefully be fairly useful for wheel users tonight when the ultimate edition unlocks.

Hope you have your wheels settings dialed in,i’m coming after you,lol,look foreward to the challenge.

[Furnace_Inferno]

So just had a chance to have a quick go on this and I can say my fears from the original video I saw were unfounded. Even on stock settings it is so much better than Apex & FH3, FFB doesn’t just completely cut out as soon as you lose traction and controlling a drift is very simple, probably too easy but then it’s not a hardcore sim so I’d expect that.

I dropped the vibration down to 25 as it’s just annoying on full and gives a constant jerkiness to the wheel and FFB down to 75 as 100 was a bit heavy, also had to change wheel deadzone to 0-100 because those defaults had a ridiculous amount of deadzone, I could literally move the wheel over an inch in either direction before anything happened, haven’t tried playing with the others yet. My biggest issue was it all felt a bit too smooth which made it hard to judge how much grip I had, I wasn’t feeling any real weight (especially in the trucks) or progressive loading of the tyres to really feel were the limit was on cornering or braking/acceleration, I’ll have to have another play with the settings next week.

Using a CSW V2 Universal XB1 Hub (PC mode) with V3 pedals, Handbrake V1 and SQ Shifter V1.5.

Settings on wheel:

SEn: Aut
FF: 100
SHo: 75
Abs: 75
Lln: OFF
dEA: OFF
drl: 003
For: 100
SPr: OFF
dPr: OFF
brF: 50

Definitely driveable though unlike the last two which is good.

[MSPEED6]

Questions aobut g920 wheel user on the xbox, do I need to manually download the firmware for the wheel and install using a PC or does the xbox automatically patch it for me like the controller?

[Kdogg788]

Summary looks good and I assume that the information would be applicable for the G920 as well.

Just had one question Dust. The settings still have dampening and center spring set to 0. Are these forces/settings still broken? Can you implement them without the FFB and wheel functioning going wrong? I only ask because I use them in other games but the way they are utilized in Forza doesn’t seem the same. For example, wheel weight in F1 2016 I set very high and it gives the best feel for the car. Centering forces in Dirt Rally I have relatively high also.

-k

[RaindancerAU]

@Kdogg788

Summary looks good and I assume that the information would be applicable for the G920 as well.

-k

I used the guide to get FFB on my G920 good enough on the demo to convince me to order.

My settings are a little different to the settings that have been shared here, but I also have generated a graph of my wheel’s deadzones, so I have some insight on the linearity of the wheel.

If you’re curious I used the wheelcheck+lut generator method for Assetto Corsa which you can find easily via a quick Google.

I actually am preferring the combination of FFB and physics from the FM7 demo, than Project Cars 2 physics with the Jack Spade custom FFB configs.

AC still has both beat in my books, but FM7, of course, has the immense variety that I am really looking forward to now that I think the FFB has improved sufficiently (but still some improvements required).

[DUST2DEATH]

@Kdogg788

Summary looks good and I assume that the information would be applicable for the G920 as well.

Just had one question Dust. The settings still have dampening and center spring set to 0. Are these forces/settings still broken? Can you implement them without the FFB and wheel functioning going wrong? I only ask because I use them in other games but the way they are utilized in Forza doesn’t seem the same. For example, wheel weight in F1 2016 I set very high and it gives the best feel for the car. Centering forces in Dirt Rally I have relatively high also.

-k

0 and 0 gives the most raw feel of the ffb.
While other settings are still problematic, and have little effect atm, I havent seen the need to update the general “base starting point”.

The moment Aaron mentions updates, I’ll jump on in again and review.
Im happy to update the base settings to a consensus as well.

Keep in mind that it should be a base setting that is starting point for all manufacturers.

@latotheX

Just a quick question about the Thread Title, to Dust. Since it seems to me that we have come to the conclusion that the FFB is not truly “Broken” is it maybe time to amend the Thread Title? From reading other threads there are people making decisions about purchasing , or not, saying that their reasons are the broken FFB among others, while still saying that they can’t be bothered to read the thread. I just think that the Title is misleading, but it is your thread.

Done.
“WE’RE GETTING THERE, NEEDS A LITTLE MORE OVEN.”

[Jarhead_xSSGTx]

@DUST2DEATH

Done.
“WE’RE GETTING THERE, NEEDS A LITTLE MORE OVEN.”

No, I think it needs more cowbell.

[latotheX]

@DUST2DEATH

Done.
“WE’RE GETTING THERE, NEEDS A LITTLE MORE OVEN.”

[Ne]

Feeling great so far, huge improvement over 6.
However,
Every couple of races the deadline for the brake resets to 0. Im on a G920 so bring it down to 40 but some races it will load no deadzone and result in me having to push really hard on the brake.

UPDATE
its resetting to default when i visit the dashboard. This is definitely happening with the brake deadzone, can’t tell if its happening to any other changed made?

[FatnSlo]

Here is a video of the review version of Forza 7 being played on PC with a Fanatec 2.5 with HE pedals and he is not liking the feel at all. This is not the retail version so hopefully there is a patch.