No matter the racing game, if you have never played one with a racing wheel; its going to be more difficult than using a controller is. If you have never played forza with a control pad or a wheel, you are going to find it difficult at first to play the game with either, but the game pad will always be the easiest one to learn. There is just far less physical effort required to use it. There is a learning curve with either device, the one for the wheel is much bigger. That isnt racing game dependant, that is just because of the nature of the device itself.
Someone has tried the advice I posted up; and from their own post -
The problems people face in Forza with racing wheels, is all down to the poor force feedback in previous versions of the game; and how much more difficult it is to set the now improved FFB in FH4 and FM7. Along side sometimes just being completely green to the physical use of a racing wheel in any racing game. A point you just very clearly showed, when you stated that -
At this point, there are 3 people in this thread that are just being difficult for the sake of it. I have provided video footage that I recorded using one of my racing wheels in 2 different cars. A stock Shelby GT350, on tarmac and on dirt; and not having a single issue controlling it. Even taking multiple jumps with it. With ABS/TCS/STM turned off. And I drift turned mustang. If the wheel wasn’t working properly, I wouldn’t have been able to do either of those two things. Not to mention youtube is littered with people using racing wheels all day long with Forza Horizon 4, and not having a single issue.
If there is a genuine problem people are having, they either have poor setups, bad settings, or have not made sure their wheels firmware is fully up to date. The G920 had compatibility issues originally with both Xbox and the PC, Logitech released a firmware update to fix that a while ago. It is not out the realm of possibility; that some of the people posting in here. Have a G920 that does not have that firmware applied to it. My G920 is fully up to date, as is my T300RS. I have no problems with FH4 on a wheel at all. No issues controlling cars on tarmac, dirt, gravel, snow, or ice. And I am far from the only one with this experience. Then there is, as mentioned above, the experience aspect. In the case of your three friends, that is barely any experience with racing games, and zero experience using a racing wheel with them.
All I have had in this thread. Is being told I either am playing with training wheels on, get told I am obviously a slow driver and not very good. Or only play Forza, and have never touched a “real” simulation based racing title. And that I am a troll. Constantly getting discredited, even though I have been a member on these forums since 2006; and have ALWAYS put my self forward to help others with their issues and to improve at the game itself. A quick look at my posting history, and anyone can see that, plain as day. I have even taken time out to record a video, to PROVE that I am not pulling anyone’s legs. At a time I am mourning the loss of a close family member. So even at a very difficult time in my life, I am still here trying to help others. And made a post that includes my settings for 2 different wheels, and explained how each of the sliders works for which aspects of the force feedback. Yet I am the troll, apparently…
I mean obviously I cant be an actual racing game enthusiast, can I? Its not like I have 3 different racing wheels to hand (because spares are always handy to have), with an actual cockpit. An Oculus rift, that I purchased for the main purpose of using with racing games. Have a gaming PC capable of running said Oculus Rift, and have played damn near every arcade and simulation based racing game to hit the market since 1989. Or have put in countless hours and time and effort to not only get good at playing them, but to also take time out to help other people as well. I am very clearly just someone who makes things up, and obviously has no idea what I am talking about at all.
This is just my steam list for racing games, not even taking into account what I have in CD/DVD-Rom, Xbox disks, PlayStation, Origin/EA, and even cassette tape, cartridges, and floppy disk for classic systems -
Edit: preface, I thought this thread was about FM7. I like Playground Games. They’ve done much better with FH4 than T10 did with FM7.
Someone wanted it to be a sim. I did. I remember reading an article in Popular Science when the first Forza Motorsport came to Xbox. They talked about the aero, and how if you lose your spoiler the downforce is now gone, too. They did a comparison test with an Evo and some other cars on a real track, vs Forza with a sim rig, of the lap times. Maybe it was all marketing. It’s about to that point now.
A sim can be fun. I think, on gamepads, the game should be handling the finer aspects of the driving for you, especially during opposite lock. CarX has the right idea; even though their physics aren’t very accurate it works well. No tricks, just a set of systems working together, brought to a point by “steer assist” and handed to the player. It’s pure. Unlike Forza’s steering that seems to put the grit of things an extra step away from the player by “dampening the yaw inertia”. Where’s the excitement? The only controls that aren’t smoothed are gas and brake. Might as well add a system to them that makes 80% trigger perfectly threshold brake, or consistently produce x amount of deceleration force, which is what you’d be paying attention to driving a real car. I’d appreciate that, honestly, even if it took 5% of my credit winnings away. I feel like the devs clearly don’t race, they aren’t fearless, they’re average people who won’t ask for or accept help from those who do/are. It’s a real shame there are Formula Drift replica cars yet I don’t see any of them acting like their real-world counterparts aside from horsepower and sticker location.
I still think it would be useful to have a baseline setting that we can all work From, maybe one for pc and one for Xbox, as a starting point and then people can say try this setting to help out.
I literally cannot drift a corner with my wheel, I tried the settings listed on page 12 and the cars felt more skittish than the settings I had before.
I played FM7 almost all day today. Just popped open FH4 after FM crashed for about the 15th time. The wheel support is good, almost too good. It’s very communicative but so dynamic that one second it can barely be pulling and the next it almost yanks itself out of my hand. On dirt it rattles my wheel/desk pretty badly (T500RS). Even 50 wheel damper isn’t enough to stop it. Maybe I could try 100. That’s not the worst of it.
FH4’s map is so full of elevation changes, large bumps, jumps, etc, if you take a jump and land a little bit sideways there’s a good chance you won’t be able to track the weight by the time you land. In the same vein as Normal steering’s “yaw dampening”, if there was an element of the FFB that would align the front wheels after leaving the ground, in such a way when you land you could straighten back out and continue, yes it would be a superhuman feature but without it there’s almost no chance of pulling the stunts you can with a controller. In fact, a predictive FFB effect designed to control the control the weight/yaw of the car with the steering wheels only, no injected physical effect, without any element of mechanical trail (or, only drawing from that when the car is on the ground) might be the best solution to FFB wheels in Horizon. At the very least, some compression of the current aligning torque forces might help deal with the constant waves in the roads. And something to stop the rattle.
First, read my last post. If you have a T500rs, then my T300 settings should work for you. Also, make sure to turn ‘vibration’ off. That is most likely what is causing the rattling. Wheel damper won’t help, and will just hamper your wheel. Again, read my post.
Secondly, about the jumps… What!!!
Did you even click on my video? The one I linked in my last post. I take the same two danger sign, twice, in that video. Each times I stick the landing with zero issues, and immediately make a right corner after one to the jumps. It’s not exactly difficult, so long as you hit the jump straight.
I’ve been lurking on this board since October 7th, when I picked up the game and (like so many others) got frustrated with the see-saw motion of the cars. My original pick after the tutorial section was the Audi, and I found it horrible to drive. I followed different peoples advice and could never find the sweet spot.
Finally, after following Ialyrn’s advice above, I’m having FUN driving this game and winning races, and it doesn’t even feel cheap when you lose control anymore (tossing a TVR through a bush at 90mph is SUPPOSED to end in disaster).
The least you can do is reset everything to default, fix the brake deadzone (thanks Logitech) and try the settings in the post above. For me, this has been a night and day change to the game. Thanks Ialyrn!!
I get where you’re coming from but on a gamepad I can do it all day. If Horizon gameplay is about leaving the ground at least once a minute on average, it should be possible on a wheel or they should be more forthcoming about the incomplete wheel support. Plain and simple.
A very small amount of disconnect between user wheel inputs and game steering inputs might be necessary to stabilize the car in extreme situations such as landing from jumps. The rest, i.e. f you take a jump in a cross country race and rotate in mid-air, setting up to land at 10-degrees deflection from your trajectory, the FFB should help align the players wheel (and the car’s wheels) in a way that makes landing into re-alignment relatively painless. Even jumps in the road, or jumping the roundabout coming up the highway, can upset the car for wheel users.
Taking a closer look at the default tunes is also a great idea. The FFB and expanding wheel user-base is not creating problems, simply highlighting problems that have always been with Forza.
The map design in Horizon 4 does a great job of adding excitement back into the gameplay that the lazy pad steering would cause in pure track racing. Trying to navigate this world with a wheel, the true drama of it is clear.
Dirt Rally is so garbage, it’s offensive to the word garbage to associate the two.
Agreed.
Dirt Rally shows why “the car’s reactions” are so subjective, you can make a game play “passably” in certain conditions and completely fail to resemble reality in others, as a result of chasing certain “objective” vehicle behaviors. I have no respect for a program that claims to be a simulator of any sort, and does so by chasing vehicle dynamics from the outside in. It’s the most disgustingly superficial approach possible.
They do. Tires are notoriously difficult to simulate. That’s the root of most problems any sim has ever faced. And force-based vs geometric roll centers.
I’d argue it has more downfalls than that, which the FFB might be instrumental in bringing to light.
Without contesting your argument, I’d like to see the same comparison with a slalom race. The wheel should be capable of doing better. If it’s not, the physics are at fault. Wheels can turn faster and more accurately than controller steering, there is no question. It’s my understanding Forza’s controller steering shoots itself in the foot by being so slow, and they “fix” it with psuedophysical forces.
I feel it’s a bit of both. Pad racing is inherently more accessible by being cheaper (free for Xbox users), less set-up time (clamping my wheel to my desk and plugging everything in; building/buying a sim rig if you’re on Xbox), and 13 generations of developing pad steering algorithm vs 2 generations of serious effort towards FFB support.
I feel you’re understating the importance of tuning in the playability equation. We’re ultimately playing with a system of forces that total vehicle dynamics in practice. The wheel and FFB are merely the window in and out of that system.
For every instance of proof of success I can show you an instance of proof of failure. This goes back to what I said about Dirt Rally, and subjective correlations between vehicle behavior and reality. Skipping over the totality of friction and overall vehicle dynamics to serve specific “reactions” destroys the integrity of the simulation and cripples the experience for absolutely everyone. Unless, of course, the goal is simply to make an arcade racing game, that noone should need respect as a simulation. I would like to believe I am on your side.
Horizon is hypercar rallycross. It’s inhumanly intense. The tires do a great job of making it possible, until they leave the road, which happens often. Until the FFB is equally catered towards Horizon’s extreme nature, it won’t play well. This is my opinion as a 1080 degree wheel user.
FM7 is reasonable on a wheel. My understanding of the physics and tuning to use them to maximum effect is still only ~50-75% of what it could be. The recent FFB update to FM7 seems to be universally accepted as a leap forwards, once the drivers and tunes adapt to it. This thread isn’t about FM7.
Lalryn, I’m sorry. We all have our own ideas of how physics work and the correct way to interact with them. I haven’t found a simulator that agrees with my expectations, and could attack any sim/game for not being made just for me. You’re right, I have made an *** of myself. I want you to know it’s not personal.
I watched the first 5 minutes of your video with the GT350. I saw you land 3 different jumps, casually perform numerous subtle drifts, including on dirt; generally, have an easygoing time. I believe you, it’s possible.
Thats very big of you, and I appreciate the response. Thank you.
You are right, everyone has different things they look for in physics and force feedback. I tend to take a very objective view that no game is perfect in either of those departments, and learn how the individual titles do work. To better help myself, and then so I can help others. To either fix their issues, if possible. Through settings and/or through practice. Or to help them rule out their setup/settings as the culprit, so that then there can be no doubt that the game is at fault. The biggest thing to keep in mind, and I cant stress this enough. Is that T10 and Playground can not investigate anything, unless all other avenues on the user side have been looked at (including input lap on an LCD/LED/OLED TV), settings in game/on wheel. Or that device drivers and firmware are up to date. With all that information provided in a clear and concise way, along with a proper description on what is actually happening. Its one of the main reasons I ask others to post up their settings. The other reason, is so that I can provide more customised advice. Because each persons situation, even within this thread. Is unique to them. And there can be a number of factors that are creating their issue.
All of my friends have wheels with updated firmware, all are using low latency gaming monitors (and as someone else said, this would not make any difference as the controller would feel the same in that case), all have up to date software.
T10 will never address it with info because they will never respond to tickets. Every single one of us put a ticket in for this, explained we’ve changed settings to no avail, and all we got was ‘we’ll forward it to the devs’ about 3 months ago, and then heard nothing since, no requests for where, when, why, what we tried, nothing. Na da.
It’s the exact same with the bug in adventure where the rental car gets bugged - even with hours of video evidence on exactly what’s happening, how to reproduce it…nothing. Not even a ‘sorry but it’s not a priority at the minute’ - just complete radio silence after the first response.
So yes, I think we’re well within our rights over 3 months after raising the issue to keep posting saying there is a problem, whether it’s a just a bug, settings or issue with the input layers - because so far nobody at Turn 10 seems to give a damn about it.
You say yours is fine - well lucky you, but you also say steering spring should be on for dynamics and you’ve tried that on the G920 - the vast majority of people on here with a G920 will tell you the centre spring makes almost no difference in the game and only really works in the menus. And it’s just a static force, not dynamic at all. So either you have a magic G920, or for many people, there’s a serious bug somewhere.
Even without this problem there are obviously problems with the throttle mapping that you can confirm by watching the telemetry for 10 seconds - it’s not mapped to power limits, but rather available power and some other modifier altering it, which doesn’t help things.
My testing on a G920, on both the Xbox and the PC versions of FH4, and T10’s own description in regards to centre spring on their own support website; match perfectly.
Default for centre spring is ‘100’. I have it set at 100 for both my wheels.
Apart from that description is completely different from what has been given for a few months with the centre spring - which used to match what it still says in the game, that’s it’s a centring spring that does NOT scale with FFB - so which description is correct, the new one, or the old one?
And have they actually changed it, or has someone just written a different description for the wheel guide?
Because I just tested it again with the latest FFB settings in case they updated it, and it still does almost nothing in game and mainly just affects centring in menus. And it’s a static force. And you still get self centring with it turned completely off.
When you enter the menu, it will centre the wheel. Thats actually annoying, and not something I personally like; in any racing title. Its annoying if you have to pause for any reason. But when it comes to driving in game, the effect is absolutely dynamic. For a while I was using 0 centre spring on both wheels. I changed it in December after the FM7 ffb update, as centre spring changed in that game with that update. So I started experimenting with it in FM7. I wondered if it worked the same in FH4 as well, as I felt something was missing in Horizon with the self aligning. I set it to 100, and I noticed an immediate difference to self aligning while in motion. While the car is stationary, I can turn to full lock; and the wheel will stay there till I begin to move. Then it aligns to the centre once I am moving. That is how it should work. It works along side the mechanical and pneumatic trails in the game. In FH4, thats is FFB understeer (mechanical trail), and FFB minimum (pneumatic trail). Realistically, T0 and Playground need to implement the same update from FM7 into FH4, as it will do a lot to remove some confusion about settings; and bring both games into parity with one another on wheel settings.
At this point, the in game description must be wrong. Because all the testing I have done, fits with what T10 state on their support website about wheels and FH4.
We have obviously gotten off on the wrong foot, and I am more than willing to leave that in the past. All I want to do, is help people figure out what is going on; make sure absolutely everything else is ruled out as a possibility. Help with trying new settings, and give driving advice. And hopefully help others enjoy the game as I am on a wheel. Its absolutely the game devs responsibility, but I also know from personal experience. It sometimes is just a matter of learning a new device, or a new game. Other times, its just a bad game. I think we can all agree how much of a headache Pcars 1 is to setup on a wheel, as an example. Tuning force feedback in Forza, is also a headache. The descriptions in game make minimal sense, they do not correlate to how almost all other devs of racing games handle things. And there is a lack of parity between FM7 and FH4. It makes things harder than they need to be.
And yet with my G920 it will align to centre when stationary no matter what the settings are, and centering spring force gives a massive change in the force to centre the wheel in a menu, yet makes almost no difference at all in game - there’s maybe a touch spring centring at low speed and when stationary even going from 0 to 200, and that’s all.
Thats odd, because it shouldn’t be doing that. Are you using the Xbox console, or a windows PC?
I only ask, as some USB headers; especially USB 3.0. Can sometimes screw with FFB wheels. Sometimes, some issues can be solved simple by using a USB 2.0 port. As daft as that sounds. I had that issue on my old computer system, which was a very old AMD FX based system. My G920 wouldnt work correctly on a USB 3.0 port, but was perfect in a USB 2.0 port.
Ok. So to double check my testing, I hooked up my G920 and loaded FH4 on my Xbox one. On there, the force feedback works as I stated it does in my previous postings. Only thing I had to change in the settings, was the Force Feedback Scale; as I mentioned in my post in regards to the settings. On top of this, I tested the centring effect on the wheel while at a stand still by turning full lock and letting go. The wheel stayed where I left it, as you can see in this video -
I also did the same run on Fortune Island, as I did previously with my T300RS -
As you can see, the effects are as I described all along… But!!!
In the interest of being thorough, because now I have information on whats happening and where, it just makes sense to double check everything. I plugged the G920 into my PC and loaded up FH4 on there. Now this is where things get interesting, and by interesting. I mean very good for you. There is something wrong, least now there is anyway. For some reason, you are right, the wheel just wants to self centre. It doesn’t matter where the centring spring slider is set either, at 0 or at 200, it will always return to centre. On top of this, the Force feedback itself is off as well. Its clunky, and feels dampened and slow; even with damping turned off. As it was in my Xbox one test with the G920, and as it was on my T300RS. I closed the Logitech software, just to make sure it wasn’t overriding the wheel; but the G920 on the PC with Horizon 4. Still acted the same.
Because you told me what is happening for you, I was able to better test this; and now we have a point of failure for the G920 with the PC version of Horizon 4. And it is absolutely something that T10/Playground and their support team, needs to investigate. Thank you for finally telling me what I needed to know, because now I can back you up; instead of us bickering at each other. I really hope someone from the support team investigates this issue for you. It is out of the scope of what settings can do, unfortunately. Still, I am pointing T10 support and Chris Esaki on Twitter to this thread (and this post). I hope they check it out.
If possible, I would highly recommend people with a G920 wheel; use it on the Xbox one console itself. The wheel works flawlessly on there. Whatever is happening on the PC version of Horizon 4 with the G920, it definitely needs looking into.
PC, happens no matter what USB port it’s plugged into. I just asked on of my friends to check it too as he has a completely different system (threadripper vs my i5) - his does the same.
