my only problem with the car xp system is the sheer amount of xp needed to max out your car compared to how much you get for racing bonuses like passing and great sections. so on average you need 250k xp to hit 50, but only get 10 for passing and 50 for great sections.
i think there are two things they could do rather easily to make this a lot less of a grind. either reduce the amount of xp needed to level to 50 by half, or introduce an xp booster. for each car you manage to get to 50 you get a certain amount of bonus xp % to a max of 100.
So, I was looking at other games and upcoming expansions, and Power Wash Simulator is adding a Back to the Future DLC, to its eclectic assortment of things players can power wash.
This got me thinking: Why are even “chill” games like PWS more rewarding than FM?
It’s not just because players are actually rewarded with different things for investing the time needed to power wash entire playgrounds, mansions, fire stations, etc. This helps, but it’s not the main draw. I think it’s because the actual enjoyment of playing a game like PWS comes from what players are doing versus what they can earn by completing the task?
Many who enjoy the current grind FM cite the fact “It’s the journey, not the destination”, but fail to realize in a racing game, there is no actual “destination”, or goal (outside of being the fastest) the same way there are concrete goals in games like Power Wash Simulator.
In PWS, the main goal is to clean an object, building, vehicle, or large area of all the dirt & grime that’s accumulated. The moment to moment game play taps into a primal need for organization and cleanliness.
So, the game play loop supports the moment to moment game play by rewarding players with items that help them accomplish the goal such as more powerful nozzles, better cleaning solvents (faster cleaning), etc. PWS players aren’t just “washing to wash” compared to FM players who are being forced to “drive just to drive” to earn upgrades that may, or may not actually help them out in the long run.
This is a key difference I thought I’d bring up because when you think about it…
If a indie game that promotes itself as a chill and relaxing experience does game play loops and rewards better than a AAA game with a multitrillion dollar company backing it, there are some harsh lessons that need to be learned if FM is to be saved. And by saved, I mean, removing the ridiculous car leveling and Car XP system altogether.
Great post. There is an ASMR element to power washing. There is a satisfaction in it. The key is that it’s not too hard to do. No one is knocking the wand out of your hand. You can see and feel progress.
The base tunes and builds on Forza frankly suck! Learning to drive is too hard. Then if you want to participate you have AI OR other players hammering you on the track.
I’m super determined and will overcome hardships others will not to get to where I want. Such as golf!
I truly don’t think T10 has put enough thought into the journey as much as they think they have
Good post. I pretty much agree. The grind to me is utter frustration, because before I can do anything, I must grind and at this point in my life with limited time, I’ll just do something else. As of right now, it’s about 3 weeks since I’ve played Forza. I still get on these forums from time to time in hopes that they remove car xp progression, and see if there is a new update where the issues raised in this thread are addressed. I spent a lot of money on this game, $100 to be exact, and I feel like it was just a waste of money because it’s a game I despise to play at this point and it is almost 100% due to the car xp progression grind.
This is extremely well written in agreeable on all fronts.
I’m sure the reason they removed all the bonuses for the difficulty and challenges that you mention in that list are because they didn’t want to reward people that drive with a more challenged setup. Thereby “taking away” from someone else. So they completely stripped that system out so everybody got the same amount of credits regardless of if you use rewind or ABS or traction control or any of those things.
I always thought that system worked well as I would intentionally challenge myself to get a few extra credit. And even though it didn’t always work out I felt like I was becoming a better driver due to that.
But we have to make sure that everybody gets a ribbon these days. So they had to make sure nobody got an extra cookie in their lunch box or there would be an uproar in the world.
The sad part is you basically wrote a book on the core failure of this game. And yet it only touches on a tiny bit of what they did wrong with this release. Maybe if they had 8 years they could have made it even worse.
Everyone’s already left. The boat is floating aimlessly in the sea. I just come on to the forum when I have dead time for chatting. I’ve got about 20 or so other racing games that I’m playing. And just check in weekly to buy the on sale car. In the hopes that by the end of next year we’ll have a playable game
And they need to hurry with this. Because if these changes don’t show up for 6 months you’re going to have an entire community saying, wait I spent hundreds of hours leveling up cars and now you’re making it a 5-minute job for everybody else. So their core players that bought the game early and put in the time are basically getting crapped on.
But if they do it now, apology or otherwise, we can probably all say “kudos” thanks for listening and move along. However, if it’s June when this game becomes good and somebody new picking it up can level up an entire garage of cars in a weekend they’re going to get a second level of backlash. Assuming anyone’s around to even give a darn.
Audio feedback and sound design can add immensely to the immersion, or overall enjoyment, and this is a hotly contested area in FM, and the Forza series in general.
Some think the sounds are as realistic as they’ve ever been in the series while others say, they’re all recycled sounds that have been heavily autotuned - pun intended - And sound nothing like the real cars, engines, exhausts or turbos they’re supposed to be from.
I’ll leave the sound debate to them, but you’re absolutely right a key game play element to chill games is players don’t face very many roadblocks to achieving their goals… Similar to farming games like Stardew Valley, where the only thing players are actively struggling against is time, and how to manage their various resources.
Now, that you pointed this out, this is exactly how the previous Motorsport games were setup.
The only thing players struggled with (in the general sense) was earning enough credits to buy the parts to upgrade their current car, so they could race a little easier and earn more credits. Yes, there was AI difficulty, not using assists and of course, actual competition in MP, or Rivals. But overall, the “vibe” of previous Motorsport games was in fact “chill” aka sandbox, “go at your own pace”, and this exists in spades in the Horizon games, even with their over the top festival setting and theatrics.
It’s alienated a large portion of the player base, but especially, older players who have been with the series for a long time, and now don’t have as much time to game anymore compared to when they were younger.
I hate the “You obviously don’t like racing games if you don’t like to race” argument that’s brought up to defend the grind system.
No.
We love racing games. We don’t love having to grind for grinding’s sake just to be able to race!
That may be part of it, but I feel the underlying reason they took away other ways of earning Car XP is to force players to grind longer than they have to because that’s the big marketing point they sold this game on?
The so-called “Bond with your vehicle” crap that can only be done by driving a single car an insane amount of times… In stock form that is undesirable, and most likely due to default tunes that were made horrible on purpose to promote more grinding to make them bearable.
It’s an insidious system, and I haven’t even seen something so egregious even in mobile games whose sole purpose is to frustrate players into spending money on ways to skip, or lessen the grind.
An amateur racer and friend of mine always says “Do you want to know how to make a small fortune racing cars?..Start with a large fortune…”
Few people make a decent living racing cars. It’s mostly the top tier pros and maybe a tier down that can truly live the life of a racer outright. For the rest of us, it’s a race to find out which is quicker, your car or how fast your bank account empties…
I’m sure this has been mentioned before, but I see a few other major issues with the CXP.
First, when it is earned on race cars, after only a few races you will have more CXP tied to that car than there are upgrades available. Formula, LMP, GT, etc only have a few options like tire width and restrictor plates. There is no need, or even any possible use for 4000 CXP on these cars. This alone makes the system pointless.
Another really annoying part of this is how it ties to any sense of realism. In career mode, you routinely start the very first race of a series in a bone stock car at level 1 and are racing against cars with wide body kits and aero. I realize they are just loading in “Drivatar” builds, but this drives me crazy.
Further on the topic of lack of realism or any ties to motorsport, the Miata series is a glaring example. In Spec Miata, these cars all have gutted interiors, roll cages, racing slick tires, and many other modifications that you won’t have enough CXP for until the series is over! What’s the point?
For the vast majority of real “Motorsport” modifications are made to a car BEFORE it goes out on track. Not after you drive it stock and learn what needs to be improved. Anyone that knows cars knows you reduce weight, bolt on better rubber, add a roll cage, improve braking and cooling. Those are now all locked behind the grind.
They may have dropped the total level to 25 for all parts to be unlocked, but the placement of some of the parts within the leveling is frustrating. Why is a locking differential level 6, yet exhaust is right from the jump at level 1? Clearly I want to add more power while I’m doing a 1 wheel peel around the track for 4-5 races…
I beg to differ with you on this point. This game was clearly thought out. It’s just that it was thought out by video game programmers who have probably never even seen a real race. And their only exposure to the exotic cars are the ones that wow them as they walk in the front doors of the T10 building. Which might not even be working vehicles. Some of these programmers might even bike to work (not Motorcycles) because they are of the ecologically minded save the planet mindset who think the car is destroying the ozone layer.
So give them a break, they thought it out as best they could with no prior knowledge or experience in racing or cars.
Just spent a bit of time levelling up S class cars from L1 to L5 in rivals. Tried 7 cars and al 7 levelled up at exactly the same checkpoint on Lap 9. The only difference was how quickly I got there.
As such, so far as I can tell, doing perfect sectors makes minimal if any difference, which I suspect is why the progress bar does not actually show you the amount required per level. Seems to be more or less entirely based on distance driven.
How about 2.5 seconds for avoidable contact when the AI hits you while you’re sitting on your roof?
(That was not a good race).
I’d do rivals, but the 2 or 3 hours needed to get access to parts that might make a car competitive is about a third of my weekly gaming time, so by the time I’ve done that and started tuning I’d rather be playing something else, and it’s frequently not on the XBox
Look at the new WRC from…EA…Codemasters. Free 5 hours through Gamepass. Start at the bottom and work your way up to pro, or you can just start top tier…purchase a built car or build your own, have to make some compromises with new/used parts…complete team management and budget…repairs between stages
I wish the physics were a little better, but much more enjoyable. I have only been logging on Forza 1 time a week to collect my car, AFK a couple races, then back on the shelf.
I enjoy WRC 23 as well! I too wish the physics were a bit better but have you checked the leaderboards? Maybe it’s because I like wacky slow cars but it’s so easy to get a top 50 time even with crossplay enabled, it’s like nobody is playing the game! And I’m using a gamepad! What a weird year for racing games…
I’m sure it’s lost on T10, and MS since they’ve convinced themselves FM is a smash hit and are carrying on as if that’s how the game is actually being received. Ironic.
