Analysis on Why The Car Leveling and CarXP System is Driving People Away from Forza Motorsport

I thought I’d present an in-depth analysis why the Car Leveling, and Car XP Upgrade unlock system in Forza Motorsport is so bad, and why it’s current iteration is driving both veteran players and possibly new players away from the game.

The underlying reason the current car leveling & upgrade unlock system is so boring, tedious and not fun is because it’s both unrewarding and unbalanced. Period. It also provides no true progression, either.

If something is not rewarding in a video game, it will fail to motivate players to engage with it, prompt them to find ways to avoid it, or work around it like AFK leveling cars.

Turn10 took the fun and natural grind that was present in previous FM games and made it a mandatory chore in Forza Motorsport.

T10 took the inherent and self-perpetuating game play loop of the previous games…

Race car–>Earn credits–>Buy upgrade parts–>Tune car–>Race tuned car to get more credits–>Buy a new car to race–>Rinse & repeat

…And locked it behind a tedious, boring slow grind that doesn’t reward players for anything other than driving. Period. Players are forced to drive just to drive… Even if they’re leveling cars AFK.

Driver level is just a number of time spent in the game. Nothing more, nothing less. This is why it feels so unrewarding, and like players are making no progress whatsoever. Because they aren’t, compared to other systems in other games that reward and respect a player’s time invested by improving their character’s abilities, or equipment.

In RPGs, players are awarded skill points they can use to make their fighter, wizard, or rogue a better version as it levels up. Players also receive better equipment and weapons as they’re grinding toward max level as well. All of these things represent a true sense of progression from where the player started to where they end up by the end of the campaign.

In previous Motorsport games (and Horizon), players were rewarded every time they leveled up their Driver Level. They earned cars, credits and in FM7, cosmetics. The only time they are rewarded anything outside of credits for races in FM is when they complete one of the single player series (Builder’s Cup) and they get a car.

That’s it. Period.

The system is designed to force players to grind vs. make them want to grind because it’s fun and actually rewards them in ways they might not be consciously aware of, but still motivate them to “grind” on their own.

There are two unbalances within the current system that make the core game play loop feel tedious and unrewarding as well:

  1. Car Levels needed to unlock upgrade parts.

  2. Car XP needed to purchase the upgrade parts.

The rate at which players earn them are severely reduced in relation to the other.

As a general rule of game design, certain reward systems can be unbalanced if everything else surrounding them is rewarding… Such as having a diverse offering of content aka Tracks, MP races, Single Player events, etc. But a game can’t have everything be unrewarding at the same time. That’s the quickest way to make players not want to engage in the core game play loop. This is where we are currently at with Forza Motorsport.

The first place players encounter an unbalanced reward loop is the single player “career” aka The Builder’s Cup.

Ideally, each series would take a car from “Zero to Hero” - Level 1 to Level 50 - With enough Car Levels to reach 50, and enough Car XP earned to fulfill the required amount needed to fully unlock all the upgrades at the end of a series. This doesn’t happen because of the amount of races in each series aren’t enough to level a car to 50, and the player cannot earn enough Car XP to fully unlock all of the upgrade parts by the time the series ends.

On top of this, players have to start over and level every car they want to tune no matter what post-career activity they want to participate in (Rivals, MP, Free Play).

Imagine having to continuously re-level the main character, or NPC party members in a RPG after the story ended to participate in endgame activities? It sounds absurd, doesn’t it? But this is exactly what FM is forcing players do to because of how the current system is setup.

This is why there is no true progression in FM’s current leveling system. There is no “max level” where a car has reached the top of an arbitrary power curve and is “the best of the best” like in traditional RPGs. It’s doesn’t exist.

Those wanting to argue in favor of the current unlock system being similar to Call of Duty’s unlock system, or other systems that provide actual progression are misinformed because Forza Motorsport doesn’t reward players with anything other than Car XP, and from limited sources.

CoD allows players to unlock passive perks as well as kill (score) streaks outside of just leveling up their weapons to unlock attachments aka upgrades. This system rewards players for participating, and gives them access to things they can use that improve their overall game play experience while simultaneously leveling up their guns. Forza Motorsport offers none of these additional perks, and why this system is not similar at all.

The other imbalance is the rate at which players earn Car XP in general. The only way to earn Car XP during races is very limited. It’s limited to sectors and overtakes. And that’s it.

There needs to be more ways for players to earn additional Car XP on top of what is currently offered such as…

-Car XP for clean driving (no contact; staying on track every lap)

-Car XP for drafting

-Car XP for maintaining consistent speed for X amount of time

-Car XP for keeping a certain lead distance on the pack

-Car XP for when you take the lead over someone in close proximity (Sling Shot)

-Car XP for using no assists + Sim Steering

-Car XP for using Manual Shifting (w/wo Clutch)

-Car XP for driving at night / in the rain / in fog / low visibility, etc.

If some of these seem familiar… They are.

Some of these are from the Mod system in FM7, that rewarded you with more XP and credits if you chose to use them. Some of them, like using no assists, were also in previous Motorsport games, and also granted you more XP and credits because it was considered another difficulty setting separate from AI difficulty.

Forza Horizon also includes individual skill points… Similar to actual RPGs… Players can earn and apply to each individual car that might grant increased XP gains and other passive perks while driving, or engaging in activities outside of races (FM doesn’t have this, but it could be adapted).

If the rate Car XP is earned is increased, it would help alleviate the grind and reward players for their time.

The added benefit is most of these things players do naturally while racing. Some of these would even reward players for being better drivers in both SP and MP. Two birds, one stone.

To recap, the current Car Leveling and Car XP Unlock system in Forza Motorsport is unrewarding, unbalanced and offers no true progression. This is why it’s driving veteran players away and causing new players to avoid the game up as well.

It’s a tedious, mobile game mechanic that forces players to waste their most valuable resource… Time… For no other reason than to prolong the inevitable due to a lack of content, and to increase player retention numbers for Game Pass. The irony is it’s doing the exact opposite.

The sparse statistical data that can be found points to Forza Motorsport being the worst performing entry in the entire series… Ever… And having the least player retention numbers post-launch of any Forza game, Horizon or Motorsport, as well.

If something is not done soon, I fear MS/Xbox will abandon not only FM, but the entire series moving forward. It would be deserved, but only because of their own arrogance and corporate mandated design choices and not because fans lost interest in the game, or series itself.

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Kind of makes you wonder why they thought it was a good idea to begin with.

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Good analysis. I have another point to add-- the main reason, for me at least, why this system feels so tedious is that it completely pulls you out of the natural gameplay loop. If you want to play anything other than career, you’re forced to spend multiple hours aimlessly doing laps in free play. In typical MMOs you’re going to spend many hours grinding, but you’re actually playing the game as you grind for that next weapon, ability, etc.

A good example is me spending 2 hours today doing laps in test drive just so I could build the car and post a competitive rivals time. 2 hours of time effectively doing nothing. In any previous Forza game, or any racing game for that matter, I could just use credits I earned through the campaign and have a base tune done in 5 minutes.

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Great analysis, it’s one of the reasons why players leave but unfortunately there are many others, between this boring, truly time-consuming and uninteresting carxp system + the system of totally unfair multiplayer penalties which does not punish bad players + the lack of content in multiplayer (limited class and choice of races) + the bugs and crashes in solo and multiplayer + the ultra short career mode without much interest + the lack of content + the private lobby without wear and tear tire, without I.A…

Moussaillons/Sailors, let’s leave the ship, it sinks without Turn 10 or Microsoft really trying to save it.

I can’t agree enough that it doesn’t provide progression. It’s just a time gate. A very long, very annoying time gate.

I would say though, we see “XP” thrown around so much that we sometimes forget what it actually means. Experience Points aren’t just meant to be a timer. Experience in RPGs is a reflexion of the real-life mechanic of learning. The more you do something, the better you get usually. Leveling up is just a reflexion of that, codified neatly because it’s a game, with XP measuring that progress.

CarXP doesn’t measure anything. It doesn’t model driver experience or abilities. It’s just a disguised timer.

Forza isn’t a RPG anyways. I think the only argument you can make for it having any sort of RPG mechanic is the driving line assist, because it allows you to play the part of a professional driver who knows every track.


There’s another fundamental issue with Car Points to me.

Car Points only make sense to me as a way to limit what players are allowed to build. Problem one is that the Performance Index already does that. Problem two is that this kind of restriction should be tied to specific events and not be general.

I cannot see what Car Points are supposed to be except a waste of time.

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That sums it up. The only reason to include this system is to increase hours played figures in an artificial way, with no care to the consumer. The “get to bond with your car” point was nonsense to begin with but it loses any vestige of credibility when the game requires you to level up the same car again if you want a second car of the same type.

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Hey, thanks for the great support everybody!

You all bring up excellent points that further support my analysis.

It might seem like I’m preaching to the choir, but I made this post because we need to go beyond the general “This car leveling system is stupid! I hate it!” posts and examine why people hate it, and why it’s not working as intended.

My hope is someone from T10, reads this thread… Even if they can’t publicly acknowledge it… And then makes meaningful adjustments short of removing it altogether (that I, and many would prefer).

Developers are people, and I’m pretty sure none of them wanted to release the game in the state it’s currently in? That’s all on the upper management of Xbox, Game Pass, and MS.

However, the way the current leveling system has been implemented seems like it may have been by a Junior Game Designer (Intern) with little real world experience with how game play loops effect not just moment-to-moment game play, but long-term player engagement as well?

The leveling system could be something a lot of people enjoy and make FM, stand out on paper. It’s the current execution where it fails.

I know some people are content with “I told you so!” when they announced this system. But in all fairness, I don’t think the majority of us assumed it would be this bad given T10’s prior entries in the series and presumed collective knowledge of the game industry?

The good news it can be a fun and rewarding system IF they are committed to making meaningful changes that respect players time by including some, or all of the adjustments suggested. That would be acceptable, but what would be preferable by a vast majority, myself included, is if they removed this system entirely as it does not belong in a racing game. Period.

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There are a lot of great points here.

I personally like that I don’t have to spend in-game currency on car parts in Forza. It’s a much more forgiving economy where I only have to spend credits on the cars I want to buy. And I also appreciate that cars are relatively inexpensive.

That’s way better than Gran Turismo 7’s economy where race payouts can be pretty low and cars can cost multiple millions of in-game credits.

Having said that I think that the car progression system in Forza does need an overhaul. I think the rate of progression is too slow still and I don’t understand why when I level up a car to 50 and if I bought another of the same car I would also need to level that one up. That’s a head-scratcher.

What would be a nice alternative would be part unlocking per manufacturer or some form of a more high-level progression system that spans multiple cars to limit the grind when you get a new car.

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I actually really liked (most of) the game progression of old Gran Turismo games where lower tier race payouts were small. It kept you upgrading your current car without any car leveling or other systems. It also made buying your first new car a special thing. Where old Gran Turismo in my opinion fell short was low race payouts of high tier races and the difficulty of getting the prize car you wanted after winning a long race. I haven’t tried GT7 but it might be pretty similar then.

I like the car leveling system. Taking a level 1 car into rivals, learning how to drive it, and gradually upgrade it to be competitive, is one of the more enjoyable sim racing experiences I’ve had in years. Although admittedly I’m coming from ACC, rf2 and Raceroom where there’s no game at all.

Sometimes I wonder if we should just have two different game modes. One where everything is immediately unlocked for those that just want to tinker with tunes and immediately be competitive, and another with a slower pace for those who are more interested in the journey. To others that might be an unpleasant “grind”, to me that’s why I bought the game, to drive cars.

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I suspect this is what Forza is trying to fix. In GT I would face the prospect of having to run the same race 40 times (Blue Moon in GT sport…) to afford the car I wanted. Each race was identical, nothing changed, just waiting for the cash to tick up.

In FM, as I use a car I’m regularly getting access to more upgrades and point budget to experiment with, so each run feels a bit different. At the end of it I always have plenty of credits to buy whatever car I want. I absolutely prefer the Forza approach over Gran Turismo. Just my opinion, I respect the counterpoint views.

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The classic “earn money to buy cars/parts” loop has existed for this long for a reason. Let’s say you want some classic Ferrari that costs 20 mil credits-- You can either play the game naturally until you have enough credits, specifically grind for it, or simply not buy it. It doesn’t have any immediate impact on your gameplay unless you want it to.

Now let’s take the new car leveling system – You can more or less buy any car that you want. The catch is that you have to drive every single car, without the upgrades you want or need to make them fun to drive, for hours, on a per car basis, for every single car in the game. The end result is putting a brick wall of mindless grinding in front of you if you even dare to try a new car. Not a good tradeoff for me.

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CarXP/CarLevel system can work but ONLY in Career mode…

If you have fully fledged, fully featured career mode there can be some sort of Car leveling system included, and it can also help towards game being more interesting and experience more authentic.

Few points regarding game as a whole:

-Career mode needs to be separated from rest of the game
-Career mode should be linear /grindy/ affair
-Rest of the game Freeplay/Multiplayer/Rivals should be sandbox

In fully featured “Zero to Hero” Career mode you can be upgrading your car with some sort of CarXP, but car upgrading progress should be realisticly done, being lot shorter, and offering more opportunities to earn points. Parts should be unlocked by groups, basic things should be available from beginning, changing wheels, basic weight reduction, air filter, better tires…

-Your career mode car should suffer from wear and tear, performance should suffer if you haven’t changed oil in a while and so on…

-Points should be awarded for sectors, clean racing, overtaking, and also according to your finishing position and mileage you have driven…

-Manufacturer affinity should be brought back

-Cars upgraded and tuned in Career mode should be saved in state they are in said mode. Upgrading and changing it should be available outside of CM but shouldn’t change it for CM.

-Finishing career mode championships/cups should be awarded by some truly worthy rare cars

-Driver XP Milestones should be awarded with huge money rewards

Game outside of the Career mode should be Sandbox, like FH5, where you have abundance of money, and ability to buy/upgrade cars how you see fit to race them in other game modes.

By making Career mode robust experience akin to GT or FM games from the past you can create truly timeless experience, while not cutting MP, tuners, whacky builds guys off…

And revert car prices to normal ones, give us used car dealership…
It’s stupid to have priceless works of art being sold for less than 1mil…

Makes them worthless…

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The car leveling system is completely flawed for the fact that once you beat career mode it doesn’t serve a purpose anymore other than to get you aimlessly playing for hours to level up a car however once you be career mode you end up in my situation 12 million and can do nothing with it can’t upgrade a car is the premier thing to do when you have a lot of money but now I must aimlessly play for me to scraps of car points to be able to have fun with the game. Stack that on top of a very very limited multiplayer content equals for me no reason to even play after career mode. I’ve always been convinced that the developers of Forza Motorsport either do not play their own games or simply do not listen to the fan base

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Personally I don’t see car leveling really an issue when tuning a first car but I like to buy several examples (3, 4 or even more) of each model I like and then it quickly starts to feel more of a burden. Leveling up basicly same car time after time just doesn’t make any sense to me. Now I have over 18M credits but nothing I would really need to buy, except parts of course which I can’t buy even to models I’m already familiar with. If I could share model specific car points between these cars then it wouldn’t be so much of a problem.

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I enjoy the game at its core and its potential. But the level system really sucks. I didn’t buy this game to grind. I just want to have all the cars (they made earning them fairly easy enough with some auto assists and aids here and there) and play at my leisure. If there was an option to pay extra to get all the cars I would’ve done that.

I’m actually fine with keeping most cars stock. Which is what I’m gonna do. I’ll pick like 20 or so to grind out and fully upgrade but the leveling system definitely will keep me from upgrading the vast majority of cars. In fact, every car I upgrade I buy a duplicate version to keep stock as I like having factory versions as a collector.

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I think the biggest issue with progression isn’t that you have to level cars or that the carxp system is bad. It’s that the players asked for progression and we got the engineer’s definition of progression. “Look the number goes up the more you play this is what you wanted right?” No, we wanted the architect’s progression. Something designed by a person to evoke an emotion instead of designed to be a function. It’s a game, not a spreadsheet.

I really don’t like single player campaigns that are just a checklist of races. It’s the most soulless version of a campaign I can think of. It’s no different than content the player themselves can create in free race, you just get a reward at the end, which begs the question of why is a handful of playlists being touted as singleplayer? When you think of progression in any other genre you’re going through a story, even if it’s not verbal or even explicitly explained. Even when you “create your own story” like in minecraft, you’re still going through the steps of building yourself up. There’s drama, excitement, satisfaction, etc. There is none of that in FM’s “progression”.

I’m finding it extremely hard to convince myself to log in to complete the new open series or featured series. My issue isn’t that car leveling part of it. These “playlists” are just a boring, tired, uninspired, lazy concept.

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One weird and counter productive thing I noticed is that once I have reached level 50 and decided what class or classes to run said vehicle, I kinda don’t wanna use it anymore! Cause I feel like if I don’t level up another car it’s wasting time. Maybe it’s just me.

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That’s typical with grindy MMOs. It starts to feel like you’re wasting time if you’re not grinding something, even if the grind is pure suffering (War Thunder still gives me nightmares). Not the direction I expected Motorsport to go in… I still enjoy running my fully built cars competitively in rivals and MP at least.

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Yes i know what you mean. I feel the same way. It’s like they made the whole point of the game is to grind car levels so when you max out a car, sometimes it feels like there’s then nothing to do. And you’ve already spent so much time w that car, it’s kinda just like “ok, well, on to the next one then…”

They have poisoned the “racing” and “motorsport” feel that a racing game should give a player and instead replaced it with a monotonous, uninspired grind.

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