Which car is at fault in this clip at 0:25 to 0:30?

Forza Motorsport Forza Motorsport (2023) Discussion
1

I was the white car and based on my understanding about motorsport racing rules, I personally think the red car was 100% at fault because the red car started from behind before the corner entry, sent himself towards the inside line, realized that he was not going to make the turn at that speed, hit break at early apex, lost traction on his tires, slid outwards, hit the while car, and utilized the white car body to complete the turn while still sending both cars off track.

However, another user on this forum expressed a different view that the red car pulled in front of the white car in the turn so it was the white car’s fault not breaking to avoid the red car.

Although I firmly believe my original view is more likely to be correct, I worry that I am biased because the white car’s driver was me… So I really would like to hear more opinions about this type of collision.

2

If I were officiating I’d call it a racing incident.

Lotus made an ambitious move, but IMO likely would have made the corner if you had left a hair more space. You also had little time to react, so I wouldn’t fault you for it.

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3

:+1: I just did not expect someone to break at the apex… I thought there were different cornering methods but none involves breaking at the apex… I also did not expect the red car to slide outwards AND breaking… If he was only breaking, or only sliding outwards, I feel that I could dodge that… but unfortunately both happened… My NO.1 goal in online Forza is always to avoid contacts so I can maintain S safety rating, but I failed this time…

4

I have put more details on the other topic, but for simplicity, it’s the red car fault.

If he was trying to take the corner correctly, it would was yours fault, or an accident
(Imo)

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5

Thanks. I agree with you and what you explained in the other topic. Based on what I learned about racing rules, for any overtake to be legal, the driver must first ensure his own car can maintain proper driving line through the turn and go through the corner safely. Relentlessly sending the car into the turn at inside line is usually called dive bomb…

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6

Yeah exactly,
Was a bit hard to represent it on phone but i take screen with an exemple of lines

Screenshot_2024-02-13-04-09-24-54_e4424258c8b8649f6e67d283a50a2cbc
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Here we clairly see the red is going too fast, so pushed to the outside, he is totally wrong. We see on that screen too you are locking a bit the red car because you haven’t leave enough space, but the red one vas already wrong.

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Done with phone so it’s not accurate, but the yellow lane show what the red car have done on your video

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7

Red car was at fault.

It’s the passing driver’s responsibility to complete the pass safely.

It doesn’t look like it was maliciously intentional.

The game should not have penalized you (white car) for that.

It looks like the red car was not penalized for that.

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Thanks for your comment! Yeah, I was a little bit upset seeing that penalty on me as it could lower my safety rating to A - I heard that the matchmaking was safety rating based and I was scared of getting into lower safety rating lobbies…

9

Yes, the driver in front has the right to their line (as long as they’re not making intentional blocking/swerving moves)…
…and you were the driver in front with the right to your line when the driver in the red car barged into your space without completing their pass safely.

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10

@Operator1 has the right call. I don’t think either car should have been penalized. Unless the red car might get a 1/2 sec knock.

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11

Red car not being penalized encourages drivers to attempt more dirty passes like this knowing that the other car will be penalized instead.

Luckily, white car did not lose control or positions for red car’s botched passing attempt, but it could just as easily have resulted in both disaster & penalty for the white car if the red car had gained a place with no penalty after wrecking the white car - adding insult to injury.

As I mentioned, it doesn’t look like red car was being nasty on purpose.
It looks like it was just an error in judgment in the heat of the moment - shooting their shot nearing the finish line on the last lap of the race…
…but mistakes should still be penalized so that we learn to stop making those mistakes.

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12

They put a penalty system on the game, it should work, if it don’t work or can’t work, so why we have a penalty system ?

I mean, maybe on a IRL race you call that an accident and nobody is penalized (btw on a real race this accident would have done more damages i think).

But on a real race you have a human who see that happen, and who give a more accurate penalty than an IA system on a game, because IA have his limit on “how to judge”

As @Operator1 said it, penalty is needed for try to force peoples to do the things well. If it’s not possible, i rather to get rid of a penalty system who don’t penalize mistakes, bad moves, bad drivers

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13

white car got stung because he was in fact behind red car when the hit happened. Thats how the system works. It’s not perfect. You could have broke and he would of not made the corner and he would of lost time and got a penalty.

Not saying your fault at all.

14

IMO, the developers have presented to us a very arcadey game and in that sense - other than a bit of clumsiness - I don’t see anything wrong in that clip.

I’m concerned with this game that people aren’t 1. wildly weaving 2. in a calculated fashion forcing me into the gravel trap as we go side by side 3. plain old torpedo ramming. These are the three trouble areas penalties should be focused on (plus track limit issues).

I don’t have the reserve energy to cajole people to simulation standards in a very arcade ‘pin-ball’ environment.

15

It’s clear he’s the kind of person that shoves themselves into the apex of a corner when their car has 0.1 handling.

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16

Here is my analysis in four frames, based on the section “Overtaking on the inside of a corner” from the F1 overtaking rules. See here for an example. As far as I know, there are no detailed written Race Regulations for Forza Motorsport, so I base my analysis on these.

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The overtaking car needs to have a significant portion of the car alongside the car being overtaken. “When considering what constitutes a ‘significant portion’ for an overtaking maneuver on the inside of a corner, among the various factors that will be considered by the stewards when exercising their discretion, the stewards will consider whether the overtaking car’s front tires are alongside the other car by no later than the apex of the corner.”

When we examine frame 1 (02:18:583), we observe that moment: it’s well before the apex, and there is at least a gap two cars wide between the white car and the track limits. A quick note here: this is roughly 2 seconds before the collision occurs.

“In order for a car being overtaken to be required to give sufficient room to an overtaking car,” Frame 2 (02:19:302) shows the red car already ahead, with the white car still providing enough room, as is required by the regulations.

“… while enabling the car to clearly remain within the limits of the track.” Frame 3 (02:20:223) shows the white car reducing the space for the red car, not leaving at the very least one car width for the red car within the track limits. While the red car goes over the track limits (not penalized in Forza Motorsport as long as one wheel stays within the track limit), the white car is still required to give it room, but fails to do so.

Less than 200 ms later, the collision occurs. Frame 4 (02:20:407) depicts the collision and how it causes the red car to rotate to the right. It’s also notable that the last two frames show that the red car was not faster than the white car, since the overlap remained roughly the same. Upon close inspection, you might recognize that the red car even fell a few inches behind, indicating less speed. Arguing that the white car could have made it safely through the corner at that speed, while the red car was too fast, surely has no basis.

The collision was caused by the white car, as it did not honor the racing regulations as demonstrated above. There was also enough time for the white car to react, as the situation unfolded.

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17

This is correct. Im not sure how everyone here sees rhe opposite. Red has the inside line without divebombing. White needs to stay to the outside line. Just because they are on the preferred racing line pre apex doesnt mean they are entitled to that line when a car is alongside them pre apex as well. White had time to brake and white had time to adjesy to the outside. Red saw a viable gap and took it. White car 100% at fault.

White had all the room in the world to move outside line and get behind the overtaking car on the right but instead chose to stubbornly stick to their apex that wasnt there.

18

i hate to say it but if i had to assign fault, id say the white car. you need to be aware of your mirrors. you need to be aware of your deltas to other cars. you need to give room in these sorts of situations. he had the speed, he had the position, you werent aware of him coming through the gap and didnt leave enough room for the overtake. had you known he was there and that you werent at the apex then you could have stayed slightly wider in the turn and the collision wouldnt have happened. im not going to call either driver dirty because it was ultimately an incident and not malicious, but like i said if i had to assign fault one way or the other its to the white car for trying to squeeze someone who already had the move. sorry dude. you closed the door on him and he had nowhere to go but through.

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19

The white have closed the door to the red one yeah, but the red car was going definitely too fast, if white car wasn’t here, they’re high chance for the red car to hit the green one.

They both wrong, but i don’t understand how you can see the red car cornering good actually, he have breaked too much late when he saw the understeer coming, and finally the understeer still was here

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20

I wouldn’t call the red car’s cornering “good” in this situation. However, the white car’s actions prevented me from forming a conclusive opinion on what could have happened. While the red car wasn’t faster than the white car at the moment of the collision, it’s difficult to say definitively whether they could have navigated the corner safely without hitting the other car. Ultimately, the collision itself, solely triggered by the white car’s actions, resulted in the penalty.

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