Thoughts on my thoughts!?

Forza Motorsport Legacy Motorsport FM6 Discussion
1

I have a few things i want to talk about.

I’m super anal when it comes to… “I wonder if this car in real life has traction control, or ABS, etc…” I’m always googling cars, trying to figure out what “assists” they have real life so that i can do the same in game, cuz like i said, i’m super anal and i’m always trying to match real life to video game. I guess i kinda wish assists were only available to match their real life counterpart assists instead of having these generic “assists”. What are you guys’ thoughts on that?

Also, about transmissions and clutch pedals. I’m doing the same thing here.

For example, today i was driving the Abarth 695 Biposto, so naturally i googled it and said the car comes with a manual 6 speed or a non-clutch 5 speed. Turn 10 gives us the 5 speed one… Ok that’s fine. So i go do hotlaps with manual without clutch, and it just doesnt make sense… Shift times are absurdedly waaay too high, it’s just kinda lame… Pretty sure in real life, i get into a 695 Biposto with the 5 speed and i shift up it’s going to be badass and shift quickly and not bog after every gear.

Also… Automatic transmissions. Like the Volvo 850R i drove today. Car is automatic, so i hotlapped in automatic… Uhm… Nice shift times there as well… Super uncool.

Does anybody else feel like this?

PS i’ve been drinking so my post may not be ver eloquent but i think i more less said whats been on my mind for years now :stuck_out_tongue:

2

The drive train on most cars are more or less generic for balancing purposes.

3

In regards to your comment… Then i wish there was more time spent with each individual car than some kind of generic setting

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4

It would be nice. But it’s not anecessary easy thing to balance all of the cars. The transmission is a big factor if a car is competitive or not.

5

Yea but when you’re in cockpit mode, if you’re in a car that’s automatic transmission and you upgrade the transmission, the animation is still “automatic”. That’s a problem.

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They’re not going to redesign the interior of the car to something it’s not and add animations just for that purpose. Let’s be real here. Customization and tuning also allow a lot of options that would otherwise not be available. Not all will be reflected graphically.

-k

7

Speaking of manual/automatic and clutch—how 'bout that flipper-wing Chapparal?

Jim Hall’s big thing was coming up with new and crazy ideas—like functional downforce, and the automatic transmission in motorsports, and then active aerodynamics… I’m oversimplifying some—they weren’t only thanks to him, but, there you have it… The Chapparal 2E was an automatic, and the clutch pedal was retained to give the driver manual control of that movable wing—as well as an unseen component in the nose, which opens and closes! You come out of a corner and start down a straight, and stand on the “clutch”, and the wing tips down in the back, flattening out, and the hidden component in the ductwork of the nose closes up, further streamlining the front end and minimizing drag so you can get to absolute aerodynamic top speed, provided your transmission is set up correctly to let you just go and go and go…you near the turn, and now you need the drag—and, more importantly, the downforce—so you let off the “clutch”, and the back of the wing rises back up and the front duct pieces open up, and you get all that drag and downforce back as you dive into the braking zone…

In-game, it’s all well and good for the Chapparal to just function on brake press, as that’s basically how you would have used it anyway, but, eh, it would’ve been cool to be able to set it to full realism, even if only to get a real taste of it.

As for demanding ultimate realism from the game, I can understand the desire to have it that way, and commend those who have that much passion for automobiles, but it must be remembered that, at the end of the day, Forza is just a game. One that wishes to be a simulation, but draws the attention of a far bigger crowd than just the sim guys, and so must, to some extent, cater to all… While having an option to set the game to full-realism would be perfectly fine, not having the option to run whatever vehicle in automatic or manual would be a bit of a shame, and would render numerous cars useless to many—either because they can’t drive stick even in a video game, or because the automatic just really isn’t as good on the track as the manual would be. Aside from that, one must take into consideration that any good custom auto shop worth being called a “good custom auto shop” should always be able to manage to stuff a manual transmission into something that comes from the factory with only an automatic, and vice-versa…

In short—more options is good, but less options is bad.

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If you want to be closer to reality, I think you would have more fun with project cars. You take the (racing) cars as they are and you tune them. No unrealistic modifications. It’s great to have so many very nice cars in FM, but what is allowed to do with them is… whatever.

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I’m curious to know what you think are unrealistic modifications? Because in my eyes everything you can do in Forza you can do in real life.

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Actually, I think you are right. Part swap allowed in FM is surely feasible, unlike I said earlier. However, I doubt the final behaviour of the modified car is “real”. Very often I feel a real car wouldn’t react like it does in the game. I’ll put this on the poor ffb support. Please note I’m not a mechanic, not a car racer and not a professionnal gamer so I may be wrong.

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Are these swaps possible in real life? Sure. But nobody is v8 swapping a Porsche. That’s just unrealistic.

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You were saying?

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Ok so I pulled a example out of thin air and ended up being wrong. I’ll accept that. I wanted to choose a more extreme example but didn’t because I wasn’t sitting in front of my console to confirm.

Still doesn’t change my opinion about Forza going way overboard with the swaps especially with drivetrains

14

And…

https://www.gasmonkeygarage.com/behind-the-scenes-ls-swapped-porsche-reveal/

Also turned out to be a very fast car.

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Forza isnt a simulator, these are just some of the examples why. If you are that “anal” about these features or lack there of, there are other racing games that may suit you better.

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The realism break from engine swaps is that the car retains the stock transmission in the game after the engine is swapped. Most of the time this is not possible, and it is always impossible when cross swapping over manufacturers (without major modifications and custom parts)

I’m fine with engine swaps but the trans needs to be swapped too, maybe instead of generic upgrades have a few different transmission styles? (Racing powerglide with 3000 stall converter, flappy paddle double clutch 7 or 8 speed, classic manual four or five speed, etc.) And clearance needs to be addressed too. I’m not so sure an Opel GT, or a Datsun 510 with small displacement four cylinders will accept a Chevy 350, especially a fuel injected LS1. They just wouldn’t fit.

I own a 1980 fiat spider IRL and have looked into swap options and have seen 302s get squeezed in where a 2 liter four cylinder used to be, but the power booster for the brakes goes away, the firewall gets punched out and the trans tunnel through the car gets widened to fit the larger ford 5 speed that mates to the 302. The end result is a compact car with even less leg room both length and width-wise, and more power than the suspension can handle.

IMO swaps need to take those two things into account before they are applied in game. And drivetrain swaps are just beyond me, they are so difficult to do in real life that you end up with a car that won’t pass inspection and was probably cut darn near in half and welded back together just to be less useful than it used to be. I would be completely fine with drivetrain swaps going away for good. Diff settings on AWDs can get you almost the same result as a RWD conversion without having to rotate the engine 90 degrees in the engine bay. And FWD cars lose so much power and add so much weight when they swap to either RWD or AWD that it is mostly a lost cause anyway.

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I’d say the problem with the engine and drivetrain swaps isn’t so much that the game allows you to do them, but that EVERYBODY does them. No way to get around that, though. People are going to do what people are going to do… For some cars, you’ve got the drivetrain swap available because the car had several options available. FWD and AWD Eclipse models, AWD and RWD Skylines… Drivetrain restrictions also exist for motorsports, including club sports, so, again, drivetrain swaps should be kept available going forward—but they shouldn’t necessarily be the ‘go-to’ that they seem to be, anymore.

As for shift times with an automatic—I had a closer look at that today, and man does Forza screw you over big time for using an automatic… Looking at shift timing in the Aston Martin DBR9, for instance, the rev lights are only just starting to come on when the game up-shifts in ‘shift for me’ mode. It shifts waaay early. Other games don’t screw you so bad; you’d get nearly to the rev limiter before the game would shift, with the automatic. Now, I get that automatic is not preferable for a track/time-attack car—but that’s less about shift timing, and more about opting not to shift, or shifting straight through gears, rev-matching, and other ADVANCED things… Manual has some advantage, here or there, but shift timing shouldn’t really be one. To get screwed so badly by early shifting, just for using automatic…?

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Automatic shifts at the redline, no ifs or buts. Anything else and you’re asking the game to make a judgment call on staying inside the power band, which seems a bit unreasonable.

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I dont know about shifts before redline, but driving the volvo 860r automatic in automatic transmission mode is just disappointing. Bogs down after every shift, revs not peeking at all. And like the 695 Biposto which is a 5 speed manual without clutch, drive that in manual without transmission… Same thing… Dull, revs not peeking at all when shifting… Sad.

20

Revs peaking between shifts is called power shifting, it has nothing to do with the transmission and everything to do with the gas pedal and the clutch. IRL it’s a fantastic way to turn a clutch and transmission into greasy smears on the asphalt.

Just to point out, a paddle shift gear box in real life with no clutch pedal shouldn’t let you power shift anyway it just changes gears so quickly that the car is only off the power for a super short time.

The game does this part right. An automatic, sequential w/o clutch, double clutch, paddle shift, etc. gearbox will not send the rpms into the red on upshifts because it is extremely bad for all the parts of the car that participate in moving the car. If you drove a Fiat 695 Biposto like a race car in real life it would last as long as a race car would last. About 300 miles if you’re lucky with no problems.

The only way a car will ever power shift is if you force it to by mashing the clutch and gas at the same time, having stall converters on automatics, or having someone reprogram a double clutch transmission computer to behave that way. But like I said earlier you’re asking for trouble. Even drag racers avoid power shifting when they can because the gains are slight as compared to the risk of losing traction in second gear or blowing the motor or trans. And those cars live their lives a quarter mile at a time with rebuilds and teardowns scheduled as often as you get oil changes in your daily driver.

As far as shift time is concerned forza does not represent that very well but the way a car shifts is accurate. When the clutch is disengaged you generally don’t want to be sending 8000 rpms through it, you want the engine to be under light or no load to reduce wear on internal parts. That is what automatics and paddle shift gearboxes do. Take the power away from your foot just long enough to shift without breaking something.