Just wanted to open a line of debate with the community on how engine swapping has evolved in the forza series.
What was the best method for swaps used in forza games? Was it better when the whole drivetrain swapped over in the very early games and cars could only be made AWD if the manufacturer has a car in the game with AWD? Or is it better now when every car can have any drive type and can pick from a generalized range of engines somewhat catered to fit in the engine compartment?
Or, more idealistically, would it be better to go back to manufacturer specific swaps but broaden the spectrum from which to choose from? I know for a fact that Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Honda, Toyota, Fiat, and many more manufacturers have some serious toys tucked away under “crate motors” or performance packages that are designed to fit into specific cars made by that manufacturer. I’m talking about 572s, 460s, SI VTEC engines, TRD turbos, BMW M engines, AMG V12s, the Race Hemi, the Coyote 5.0L, and also street engines like 302s, 440s, 2JZ, 427 LS6, 392 Hemi and others. Each manufacturer spends millions developing these engines and they will fit IRL in that manufacturers cars, or at least some of them.
So while you’d lose the opportunity to put a 350 in a 70s Corolla, you’d gain the ability to put the 5.7 iForce V8 from the Tundra or the 2JZ in it as they were both developed by Toyota. You could even downgrade if you wanted to lose some PI points to get a car into a lower class, like putting a small block 350 in a Chevelle instead of a 454.
What is the best way to manage engine swaps? Personally I like my third idea for engines but keeping the openness of drive type swapping. But I would be open to losing that too because it is impossible to do an AWD swap in most cars without major modifications, especially if they started life as a FWD or a rear engine layout.
Take the humble Civic. With one click of a button we can miraculously transform this into RWD.
However, if you wanted to do this to your own Civic imagine the work involved.
Firstly, the engine is mounted transversely. So, you’d have to build a subframe to mount the engine longitudinally. When fitting the engine you’d discover that the steering rack and half the ancillaries need major modification and in order to sit the engine far enough back there’s quite a bit of fabrication required to the bulkhead. Once this is done you’d have to bin the front hub assemblies and exchange for ones that aren’t designed for drive shafts. Your gearbox is obviously useless but you should be able to find one that will mate to the engine although this will probably need an adaptation to the bell housing. Then you’ll have to get a clutch and flywheel sorted out. Once done you’ll then discover there’s nowhere to put the gearbox. After a lot of cutting away at the floor of the car, some space framing and a fabricated cradle the gearbox is in. The gear shifter is located in completely the wrong place but hey! Next problem, no transmission tunnel for the prop shaft. More cutting and fabrication. You’ll then have to source a rear axle and guess what, the Civic has a flat floor so nowhere to mount it. Yet more cutting, fabrication and welding etc to make some room. Once the diff is in you’ll then have to fabricate and fit the multilink mounts and have links, prop and driveshafts machined to fit. Now on to suspension, major work involved in sourcing and fitting the correct uprights and a ton of trial and error setting it up. Let’s assume the brakes are a straight forward fit. Fingers crossed that the gearbox and dif ratios are somewhere close to what you need.
You’ve now got a car that’s worth about 20$, it has no trunk floor, no rear seats and is about 110KG heavier than when you started. It has exactly the same engine power but a little less at the wheels.
These random swaps are surely for lesser games. BTW, a RWD Civic can be done, they’re raced in TCs and start at around 550000$.
Being no mechanic, this thread is fascinating. I see the point but what restrictions would there be on the game if all these real life examples were introduced? Makes me think that where the Forza upgrades are employed T10 have had to guess / model the physics from scratch or from surrogates - naively I thought all cars characteristics were modelled from real life, doh!
I think that the Swaps in all Forza games has gotten out of hand. Just look at Horizon 3 right now. To be competitive you have to be running the V12 and AWD and that is no matter what car you are driving. To have a 70’s Classic with a Lambo engine and AWD is just WRONG. I personally blame Tokyo Drift for this nonsense
I would agree with the main idea to be more authentic. So Engine swaps should be more authentic. it was better when I had FM 4 ( I didnt have FM5 ) the engine swaps were more accurate . You still had the ability to swap any drive train. With FM 6 you now have all the same engine swaps with all cars . It has become more standardised and generalised . Some people may enjoy putting a v8 into a mini or the suchlike (no , it isnt like that in the game but you get the idea ) but it seems silly to me .
I’m sooooooOoooOOOOoo sick of the 5.7L v8, fantastic engine in real life but it really spoils the game when most the cars in a lobby are using it, not to mention it’s rediculously over powered compared to just about everything else.
That a supra? Yeah homie i love supras. Then why’d u stick a v8 in it? Cause it’s faster with it than the stock engine.
That a 370z? Yeah mate nissans are awesome. Then why’d u stick a chevy v8 in it? Cause it’s faster with it than the stock engine.
That a wrx? Yeah bro im a huge subie fan. Then why’d u stick a v8 in it and rwd it? Cause it’s faster that way and i can keep up with the supra and 370z.
That a landrover? Yeah dude i cant believe im able to beat supras, 370z and wrx’s in it aye. Well thats cause you’re all driving the same damn car just with a different shell!
I always leave the stock engine unless theres no other option to get it to the top of the class, but even then i’ll generally just not use the car in that class if an engine swap is the only way to make it somewhat competitive.
Sure, this means a lot of the time the car isnt as quick as it could be, but the car actually then feels and drives different which forces you to adapt and not only learn but experience new things.
It’s unbelievable how many people think that red lining the engine in every car is the correct way to get the most out of it… if only they knew how wrong they were, maybe not do engine swaps in everything and it wouldn’t be the same ole same old in hoppers all the time.
Take out motor swaps and every would complain how over powered the '97 civic, alfa 33, s2000, lotus mono are. Nobody would drive anything else. Not to mention the is 5 different motor I can think of that have no1 times?
I think the game would be greatly improved if engine and drive train swaps disappeared and instead the upgrade and tuning was improved. I like the idea of squeezing every last 10th out of what you’ve got and having to build the car for lap time rather than “point and squirt”. I’d also prefer sharing a grid with a much broader and more realistic assortment of cars.
The current system more or less forces people to drive largely the same car although the silhouette may be different which is a massive shame considering the time and effort that’s gone into replicating each and every car in game.
I am 100% a proponent of manufacturer specific engine swaps. Even model specific swaps. For example the Dodge Charger should have a 383, 426, 440 4 barrel and Sixpack. Mustangs the 289, 302, 351, 428, 429. Those are cubic inches, just in case some were wondering. Not some beautiful mind moment, lol.
I also am one that thinks alot of the realism has been sucked out of the motorsport franchise. So that fuels my need for more realistic upgrades. The other factor is my desire for drag racing to actually get some sort of overhaul. This would make engine swaps more relevant. I would again want realistic options though.
Engines like the LS6 in the 70 Chevelle shouldn’t have the limitations it does, same as the 426 Hemi. There should be Drag racing Big Blocks like the 502, 572, 632 all available with all the latest boost options. Turbo, Pro Charger or NOS. I can’t imagine with the recent rise in popularity for drag racing, any of the manufacturers would be that difficult to get on board!!
The latest craze of generic “LS” 6.2 swaps, V10 or V12 swaps has gotten pretty old and boring. If it does every change I truly hope the sound is considered as each of those engines has its own character and feel to it.
I think it’s a good way to have much more competitive cars with the engine swapped. Some are still able to get good times for lobbies with the standard engine. I like it and i will use a engine if its available and better. Overall everybody tune a car to make it faster and some are just complaining if some others using a different better engine. This is in my opinion schizophrenic. And talking about “authentic” in FM is also quite schizophrenic as well. Many cars have a lot of computers doing the work for suspension as example which is not possible to have in the game. So your “authentic playing” is very far away of being authentic.
Only when players start to see its a game with only the look of something similar in the reality with the knowledge to differentiate between this two, some discussion wouldn’t have had happened.
I tried really hard, but I’m kinda confused man. I’m not sure which post you’re referring to with the authentic/schizophrenic thing. Or the when people realize it’s a game part, too.
I dont think hoping for and asking for a little more realism in a solid franchise that has the arcade style in Horizon is asking too much. They’re pretty close as it is. I feel the latest versions of this game with its generic engine choices takes away from what was great in the previous games, 2, 3 and 4.
But yeah, man. It’s a game. Still a great game, as they all have been. Just half what it used to be. But that’s my opinion.
I think he saying the transmission, differential, suspension, engine swaps, assists, tires pretty much the entire drivetrain is generic to make cars to simplify and level the playing field .
It’s common for things such as old Datsuns and other older tuner/Japanese cars to be swapped with rotary powered motors for drag racing.
In addition dropping a crate motor into other cars also occurs for similar reasons.
To be honest I’d like more swaps as long as it’s not something stupid like v12 lambo engines in everything. So, more swaps for GM cars because there is more than a 350 v8 motor out there.
Swaps can work if the PI effect is reasonable. Obviously a 350 v8 plus transmission upgrade that drops PI needs to be looked into more.
I’m totally cool with cross manufacturer for sure. Especially with the crate motors that are available these days. I’m not just talking about the V10/V12 being in everything. Maybe that’s more a PI thing.
I miss having the options of the different stock engines though. Like a Shelby Cobra. The 289 Cobras would actually out perform the 427 on a track hands down. Or having a 340 Challenger vs the 426, again just a track beast.
I love the way Forza plays too much to change games and my PC sucks and prolly wouldn’t play any “good” games that would compare anyway, so I’m stuck/happy I guess with whatever we’re given.
The weird thing is though that from my experience Horizon 3 and Motorsport 6 are polar opposites of each other when it comes to the benefit of drivetrain swaps.
In Horizon 3 in order to be competitive you generally need AWD; end of story. However since the game is meant to be arcadey I think the swaps are fine as they are.
In Motorsport 6 though if you swap a car from it’s default drivetrain the car really doesn’t like it except for a few exceptions (i.e. the Lamborghinis work very well when RWD swapped). Adding an AWD swap to a car also most times isn’t worth the massive PI increase and limited handling stats you get as a result. I think those points balance out the unrealisticness of RWD swapping something like a Civic, because in all honesty you really wouldn’t want to anyway.
One setup always rises to the top. Either have one or two cars dominant the whole class or have a engine swap in many different “shells” dominate. I prefer engine swap atleast each shell builds a little different.
I think over the years Forza became too unrealistic with the engine swaps. I personally don’t like it. I really miss the option to have AIs running stock. I just drive stock cars because I want to feel the differences between the cars. (On a side note, I remember of building an R34 Nur back in Forza 3 though, and that was fun…) I just don’t really like this non-sense every car being able to be AWD and have a V12… And the worst part, like I mentioned, is the fact we have no option to avoid it. I have been playing less the career modes over the years because of that. I loved the Horizon idea of an open world and I really had fun in the first 2 games. This third one: I think is OK… Regarding the Motorsport series, lately I just do laps in the Ring, exactly because of the same problem. On a positive side regarding the AI system, I like the way the difficulty is done now. All those options make it really good to find a suitable level of difficulty for everyone. It’s just annoyingly stupid running at 350 km/h in a LaFerrari and suddenly being overtaken by a Golf. Come on…
