Before I start I want to make two things clear. This is not ment as wheel against joypad/keyboards players discussion and I hope for a proper and mannered one. It’s also not ment to shame the joypad player in the video I’m using as example to start this discussion.
Now to the actually issue. In my opinion keyboard and pad players have an unfair advantage in comparison to wheel players when it comes to the ability to “overdrive” a car. For a better understanding of what I’m talking about please watch the following video.
As you can see the Civic I’m chasing is constantly pulling black lines and is also creating a lot of smoke without any noticable effect on his performance. He’s not losing much if any speed or control of the car.
If I’m going to try even something along the line with my wheel I’ll immediately feel the effects, lose speed and at a certain point control of the car.
Which simply means that joypad and keyboard players have an unfair advantage versus players using a wheel. I’m aware that certain concessions have to be made for these two input types but the advantage players that are overdriving their cars in the shown manner have is simply to huge IMO.
That said I’m aware that not all players are making use of this method and good keyboard or joypad players are able to be fast without (mis)using this “feature”.
I’m interested to hear your input, feedback and opinion about this. Please keep it civil, thanks.
Sidenote: If you’re wondering about the title of the video. I’ve used it for a bug report in the new “Troubleshooting Hub” about said issue. If that also concerns you then please chime in, comment and cast your vote.
I noticed this too. I would watch tutorial videos and see cars turning much sharper than I could get with my wheel, not losing speed when turning sharply, and maintaining control during wild jumps and landings. I eventually realised they were probably using a controller. I often switch now from wheel to controller for off road, unstable cars, or speed traps jamming supercars across desert tracks, etc.
How can you tell if someone is using pad/KB and it is not just the game responsible for smoke/black lines? Do you ask each player you race against?
From KB POV:
It looks like I have 3 speed dependent “turning angles”. Maybe more, never really checked telemetry, just referring to how much front wheels are turned during driving e.g. full lock only under 20km/h or something like that. (Will do some tests later, cause it doesn’t sound right to don’t have option to counter steer.)
It works differently for drifting.
As for driving itself: I have no comparisons to pad/wheel, but wouldn’t tell that I have some extra advantage over wheel on road. I can’t just throw car into corner and it will work out itself. IMO best example was monthly rivals from few weeks ago with that racing version of Lynk where being smooth was key. IIRC my PB time then was like 2-3sec(?) behind WR, where normally it is much less.
Only place where I can think of advantage would be on dirt maybe. Cause I can straighten up wheels quickly just by letting go one key.
And let’s don’t even talk about driving powerbuilds. However, driving high HP FWD/RWD is much more forgiving than in FH4. Even on KB.
Yes, steering inputs are calculated differently. I’m probably using assisted version, but without that it would be undriveable. Like one time I was trying to connect joypad via some input emulator (joypad wasn’t working in the end) and it messed up my KB inputs, so it was going to full lock right away. It was not fun.
IMO it is not wheel vs others, but more like wheel vs pad vs KB.
Can you check what time would you get with that Civic you was chasing?
Also please test with “braking line” turned ON/OFF.
EDIT:
and here is in-game telemetry:
0:04 - full lock; 0:05-08 - full lock left/right; 0:10-15 - low speed circle, 0:15-30 - medium speed circle; 0:30-1:38 - lap around HMC.
Whenever that steering pink box is “flickering” between vertical position and any other it means that I’m taping steering buttons.
For drifting or when I lose traction in the dirt - as soon as car starts sliding I am allowed to counter steer with full lock. And as soon as car is straigth steering goes back to “road steering”.
Oh well take solace in knowing youre playing a racing game the way its meant to be played vs mashing buttons on a keyboard. They may as well be working
There are certain indicators. In the case of the player in the video I’d already guessed that he’s using a pad. Which turned out to be right as I’ve contacted him after the Tour and simply asked.
Not sure what you mean with the game being responsible for the smoke and blacklines? The game is obviously trying to replicate the right visual effects for specific driving conditions. If certain values are reached it’ll start to paint black lines and generate smoke.
When it comes to keyboard input (methods). It’s good that you’ve mentioned the speed dependent turning angels in the mode you’re using. I wasn’t aware of that because I’ve only tried the keyboard with simulation setting and there the limitations don’t seem to apply.
As you can see my front wheels will start to generate black lines as soon as I’m turning because I’m going full lock basically instantly. This is exactly what I’m seeing way to often in races.
When I look at your video it looks perfectly fine. There’s nothing erratic, you’re not generating much lines and if then just decent ones while there is absolutely no smoke.
My conclusion from this is that keyboard players simply shouldn’t be able to use simulation mode at all because it’ll basically automatically leads to them overdriving their car. Which as I’ve already pointed out doesn’t comes with the actual disadvantages it should.
I’m not sure about pads but if something comparable (same differences related to turning angles) are also present like it is for keyboards then they also shouldn’t be allowed to use simulation mode because it’ll also lead to them overdriving their car in a comparable manner without any negative impact.
To make this clear. This is a flaw of the game in my opinion and is not something players are knowingly and willfully misusing.
I drive with a wheel and it’s very easy to spot a wheel driver vs a console player. I have to laugh sometimes because when I watch players with a game pad, their front wheels flip flop back and forth, something us wheel drivers obviously can’t do. I call them guppies like the fish only theses guppies look like their traveling backwards trying to swim up hill, totally unrealistic. Now you get behind a wheel driver and it’s very realistic. Throw in telemetry data out, buttkickers, wind simulation and you can experience the game the way it’s meant to be played by taking advantage of all the available options like data out. Nothing like cruising with the wind in your hair.
Hmm, that is strange. Don’t know why it is going to full lock like that in your video.
I’m using simulation steering. Just tried normal steering and it works normally (not like in your video).
Was your gamepad connected at the moment?
It was implication that there are many bugs in game and maybe you are seeing what game wants to show you and not what is really happening
That’s exactly the behaviour I’m observing regularly during races with/against other players. It’s what @Paco572 is referring to with “flip-flopping”.
I thought you’re using “normal/arcade” mode and that there is the problem but that doesn’t seems to be the case. My wheel was connected. I’ll try what happens when I unplug it.
I don’t think that what you say about the game not showing what really is happening is the problem as it doesn’t applies to all players. Some players are simply able to overdrive their cars without no measurable negative impact while others will directly face the consequences of such driving.
The question is why? That this shouldn’t be happening for fairness and balancing reasons should be obvious and nothing controversial.
I often thought before it was a combination of pads without deadzones adjusted and they are fighting the car and over correcting, but my steering generally feels smooth and where required I try to slip the car and keep wheels straight as possible.
Sometimes the wheels of cars on screen look weird too. Like they are moving backwards or the steering is locking one way but their car is going straight.
I use the standard steering on a Forza gamepad. Anti-lock off, TCS & SC off and manual w/ clutch. In memory of a former poster I recently clipped a Kontrol Freek gimmick onto my left stick. For me it increases comfort, gives a bit of preceision but reduces the ability to over-drive. I am not sure it’s faster, but it does feel more stable. (I am always looking to make as few inputs as possible and sawing left and right mid-corner rarely seems to help.)
Goosiest actually did a great video on FH5 control pads vs. wheels. Worth checking out.
@ziperrPL Ok, I’ve tested it without the wheel plugged in and in this case it’s like in your example. I can only go full lock when standing still and above a certain angle when the car starts drifting. Btw, what deadzones are you using? My guess is 0/100, right?
Considering that this is the way it’s ment to work I’m wondering how people can achieve what’s shown in the first video with a pad or keyboard? I doubt these players have an other controller plugged in besides the keyboard or in case of pad players a wheel. Maybe in some rare cases but that should be neglectable.
@PassionWagon69 I thought and still think you’re maybe up to something with the deadzones but with a keyboard it doesn’t seems to have that much of an effect.
Wheels moving backwards can be an optical illusion but I guess you’re aware of that and mean something else. That sometimes wheels don’t seem to show in the right direction can be accounted to two things from my experience. A bad connection of the player (lag) or fiddled with physics like I’ve shown you in the last video with the Akrapovic Clio (for anybody interested YT HZsyctX2QjI).
I expect that you’re driving doesn’t looks like in the video and I bet you’d also be slower if you’d try to. I know many good pad players where it doesn’t looks like that. But there has be something that enables players to overdrive theirs cars without consequences and I’d really like to find out why to repeat myself again. They can’t all be cheaters, right? I at least doubt that and rather think it has to do with some or more settings in the game that make it possible.
I’ll look up the video but if it’s the one I think it is then let me say I’ve some “reservations”.
I put a lot of things down to latency. Mostly it’s fine. Sometimes a cars wheels will start behaving in a way that doesn’t correspond. With the deadzones mine are set to 0 from the default values. I am not sure you can competely do that with a wheel. It would be better if I had a wheel to test it, but these are the settings I’ve used since FM5.
I have always said I feel it’s the best secret not many people share, but it’s the most clicked on link I’ve shared.
I was once racing someone and they stayed behind me telling me what I was doing wrong, then told me about them. Instantly it improved everything. I could be smoother, more precise and even slower on the stick. Also pushing it forwards sometimes for even smaller increments.
I doubt that in case of the example and most other cases. The driving is simply to constant. There are no “hick-ups” when it comes to the car position and the like. You’d see such inconsistencies if it would be a bad connection from my experience.
Like said I think you’re maybe up to something with deadzones but what? Sure there is the “abnormality” with the keyboard deadzones when a wheel is plugged in as we’ve discovered but is that what we’re seeing? Rather not I’d say.
As you said fiddling with the deadzones and adjusting them to your driving style made you smoother and presumably also faster. Now, I bet that also means you aren’t constantly painting black lines and generating smoke like in a drift event. Which by the way can make it very difficult if not impossible to follow the track if you’re directly behind such a “smoker” and use anything else but the chase views as you’ll simply be lost in the clouds. That just aside.
Could be locked diff settings with some added latency on top. Smoke comes out (locally) after tires hit a certain temp threshold, iirc, so if you have a locked diff and then have latency on top keeping your game constantly guessing what’s going on with the other player… it could create the skidding and smoke. I’m sure somebody has tested it before, just my guess though.
With the adjustments my wheels are easier to move less which means they remain straighter. It produces less friction, so there’s less smoke and it’s faster. When I first loaded FH5 I thought they’d beoke the handling till I remembered I hadn’t adjusted my deadzones.
(I think Sim steering is meant to be twitchier than standard which would also be worth considering as I do not currently use it.)
This makes me think even more that the majority of pad users, especially more casual players never actually adjust - let alone refine these settings as the game never really prompts the player that they’re a thing unless we know to look.
Whatever stock settings are …and after 10 tries to start the game, cause for some reason it was crashing on loading…
Not gonna lie, I was expecting no settings here. Like everything would be grayed out. @PassionWagon69 What do you think? Would your advice work for KB too?
No idea. And honestly I don’t think it works. That is why I said that “game is showing something that is not happening”. IMO if someone would have steering like in your video it would end up with permanent understeer. Same as I can’t drive with ABS OFF, cause it locks up wheels immediately.
Of course there is a chance that it works somehow, but I would bet 95% vs 5% that it doesn’t work.
A locked differential will only make you slower. I’ve tested it with a fully locked AWD Civic like the player in the video and even if I go full ham while staying on track I can’t produce that amount of black lines and smoke and when I try to drive clean I’m slightly slower than with adjusted diff settings. Especially in tighter turns I simply lose speed even more noticeably and I don’t see why this should be any different for pad or KB.
I doubt it’s latency related and the game is guessing at certain points. It’s not like players that obviously have a bad connection are magically starting to pull lines and smoke as far as I’ve observed. Latency problems are rather resulting in an erratic and more uncontrolled looking driving style and aren’t giving a constant impression like in the video. Besides that it’s happening way too often for it being a combination of both.
@PassionWagon69 Like I say less black lines and smoke = faster. Which is contrary to what we’re seeing in the video.
Wasn’t it you that said something along the line of “There are these guys that are always a bit faster for no apparent reason” or so? To my experience it’s exactly the line painters and smokers that fit this category way too often.
@zipperPL Like said I doubt that the game is showing something that isn’t happening. The simplest explaination is that what we see is actually happening and the next closes one would be that it’s caused by impossible inputs that simply result in the impossible output displayed in the video. If the latter is true and it has nothing to do with people somehow being able to misuse a game mechanic and it’s really cheating there’s a real problem because at least the Tours are full of such drivers.
I use simulation steering with a gamepad, it allows tighter turns and finer correction. The FH5 wheel setup guide mentions a difference in input adjustments between the two with a gamepad where simulation steering has none.
I also use a wheel where it’s the opposite, using normal steering is better than simulation steering for one reason alone which is the tunes, as mentioned in the guide, it’s more stable.
Tunes are generally in favour of gamepad because of meta tuning where you tune in as much oversteer and roll as you can to make impossibly tight fast corners which isn’t wheel friendly in simulation steering.
I remember mentioning about people mapping shift & clutch to one button @PlageBLN - could you be remembering that? Also there was a recent video showing some high end gaming PC’s having an advantage over console.
I feel like I run a deliberate handicap inspite of adjusting my deadzones in not using the ABS, as there’s no advantage to not using it. Just bigger margins for error. There are much better drivers than me on this forum who have deeper knowledge of the game and how set ups affect the car, though.
Whilst ‘no disadvantage to using it’ is a widely held opinion with ABS ,and is true in real cars,i’m not convinced its so clear cut in FH. I play on a wheel and pedals and cars handle differently with ABS on,not just under braking ,but all the time. We just dont know what else the game tinkers with when ABS is turned on
I think Forza ABS is a bit OP for my experience. I run without it because I like the danger of being able to lock my brakes (especially under pressure) and the cars feel like they have more character under braking. A bit less samey. More drama. That’s just me, though.
