Small details make the difference
14 Likes
Should they? Yes.
Will they? No.
At least not for the people who make the decisions. The people who do all the actual work might but unless it starts at the top it will never happen.
24 Likes
Donât expect T10 to do anything.
9 Likes
OK, so hereâs my thing about this.
A lot of whatâs talked about in this video are visual touches. Good things and to be expected from Gran Turismo, to be sure. Would I like to see detail like this come to Forza? For sure.
BUTâŚ
The last thing that Forza needs right now is more graphics work. Unlike Polyphony Digital, who is not only maintaining that high level of detail but also making real inroads towards solving their other issues (case in point - Sophy), Turn 10 has regressed just about everything that Forza games are comprised of in service of boosting their graphical output, and itâs now reached the point where they are failing at even that. Theyâve created a tech demo that only sort of works on specific machines in specific situations. Console players such as myself canât even get to experience the RTGI nonsense, yet that was deemed worthy of prioritizing a major update over things like better AI or a career mode that isnât lifeless, cynical, and driven by Player Engagementâ˘.
While I donât think that the graphics should regress or work should stop there, Iâm also of the mindset that there needs to be less focus on reflections and ray-tracing and far more focus on making a game worth playing. Iâm talking do the bare minimum to make this game look decent on a 4K TV, and then take all of that extra effort and work on the game proper. I donât need ray-tracing, I donât need indicator lights, and I donât need the dashboard clocks to match the system clock. What I do need is to not be bored to tears mindlessly leveling up car after car after car forâŚ35,000 credits every other race.
24 Likes
Attention to detail is usually the byproduct of passion and I hate to say this, but you canât learn passion.
18 Likes
I understand you but to me as a loyal Forza fan this game should be a complete package from graphics to gameplay thatâs what they promised us. I would rather not use ray tracing but better ways to improve graphics. But why they promised something that they canât do ? Just why ?
This game should be passion and itâs not. Itâs not a game for petrolheads itâs just a car game and thats it, there nothing especial for people to play this. What diferenciates Forza from other racing simulator or arcade racers? Nothing⌠Somethingâs are even worse than previous older gamesâŚ
6 Likes
For that you need motorsport & car enthusiasts to be involved from top to bottom. I think it started out that way then slowly went the way of profit over quality when next gen arrived. The original team is no more, now we have devs on short term turnovers just trying to earn a living, the passion seems to have gone from the franchise.
12 Likes
I would say the most important thing to âlearnâ would be to place a higher value on the single player experience. The attention to detail in graphics is cool, but focus deeply on attention to detail in the variety and authenticity of the single player race events.
Listing dozens of ways to do this is pointless. They can take a look at the competition, same as anyone else.
And Iâve commented before on how there are zero single player Cup events for race cars. They donât even include any single player Cups for race cars in the DLC pack filled with race cars.
Graphics are all well and good. I get the impression (maybe wrong) that FM23 was/is the test product for a new graphical engine that T10/Xbox/MS has future intentions on other products. The graphics engine has been slow to reach the promise. But work continues (perhaps not so much for love of FM23, but for those future products). Some progress is made.
I bought my XBox when FM23 was unreleased, wanting to get back into sim-cade racing, and see the latest and greatest Forza (a series new to me). What I was seeing advertised was newer tech than GT7 (which of course runs on last-gen PS4 hardware). Newer graphics tech, new higher precision physics.
But about 8 months ago, I could feel the gap, looking at the play GT7 offers. So I bought a PS5 and GT7 (which I had previously deliberately decided against, favoring the unreleased FM23).
It wasnât graphics though that prompted the move to GT7. For me, the real motivation was the single player experience.
And Iâm not only talking about the number and variety of single player races and series. But also the format.
Something that really gives me trouble in FM23 is how the Builders Cup events have me upgrading my cars mid-series. Building a car and upgrading as the series progresses, means that now that same car canât replay that race series unless I âdeconstructâ that car back to a lower level. And for me, that âdeconstructionâ is not fun.
I vastly prefer a range of events having a fixed performance target. Sometimes having a fixed tire spec, too. I can build multiple cars to that spec, and run them, anytime, in any event that shares that performance target.
My garage in GT7 is filled with cars upgraded to suit the events I enjoy. When I race, I have a growing collection of eligible cars to choose from, and even race against (in custom races).
But in FM23, my garage fills with cars that now outclass the specs to enter the one race series it was built for, and which also may not be eligible for any other series in the Builderâs Cup.
For me, the quality and variety of single player is the biggest thing.
16 Likes
Every project has constraints, but every aspect of this game seems like it was (& still is) far too constrained to achieve a praiseworthy level of quality.
No aspect of this game feels like it was anyoneâs labor of love, their pride & joy, the masterpiece of a maestro in peak form, etc.
No aspect of this game stands tall as best-in-class or as an impressive leap forward for the series or for the genre.
No aspect of this game makes its competition seem worse by comparison, or makes other game companies want to copy/emulate it because of how good or successful it is, or makes gamers on other platforms rush to get on this platform just so they can play this game, or makes long-time players tell all their friends that this is the best time ever to jump in.
And just about all theyâve given players to look forward to is the prospect that some of the broken things might get fixed eventually and some of the stuff left out from prior installments might return eventually.
20 years of Forza Motorsport has culminated in this.
16 Likes
Again, should T10 learn from this?
3 Likes
I honestly donât get you dumping on the game as harshly as you do in your post.
I think most of what you wrote, if not everything, comes across as subjective complaints
rather than objective criticisms.
Seriously, if you canât find aspects of the game to enjoy, stop playing it.
Simple. Problem solved.
The work Turn 10 have put into Forza 23 over the past year should be commnended, not resoundly dismissed and repleced with just more moaning about how the game
doesnât please every little part of âyouâ.
2 Likes
After more years of development than any of their past titles, marketed as a fresh start, the most advanced racing game, built from the ground up, they delivered an incomplete buggy game that people paid money for.
They spent the next year largely fixing the game and adding back what most people would call recycled content. Theres nothing subjective about these facts. You commending them for this is your own perogative and thats fine, but it doesnt seem like most people see it this way.
Your solution for people who dont see things the way you do has in fact been the solution of thousands of players, they all left. The issue with this is you cant have a successful live service game if no ones playing it. This is a failed game, if not owned by microsoft, the plug would have been pulled months ago.
14 Likes
Itâs different departments, what do AI coders have to do with graphics, or what does sound have to do with the decorations of the track etc.? Only because there are ppl working on ray tracing etc. doesnât mean the other departments drop everthing they are doing, to just do nothing. No they work on their own things. You canât make a sound person code AI just because that should have higher priority, this is not how it works.
You also canât tell a nurse in a hospital to do a surgery all by herself because there has been a massive car crash with a dozen injured ppl and there are surgeons desperately needed. No the nurse still does what a nurse does.
5 Likes
What you said is true, but whats also true is the budget. So if people are working on things that lets say dont have that positive of an impact, that takes away from the budget of what things that could have a positive impact.
I very highly doubt theres many specialists working in specific areas on this game. I think with rtgi specifically, its something that has been worked on for a long time, finally being finished a year after release, it was likely already budgeted so wouldnt necessarily take anything away. But when you look at some of the issues rt already has and hasnt been addressed, its disconcerting for some.
4 Likes
No. No, it shouldnât be commended, because it shouldnât have been necessary in the first place. This attitude is why the industry as a whole seems to be doing itâs level best to auger itself into the dirt at supersonic speeds.
As Iâve said before, focusing on graphics is like giving a junker car a pristine paint job right before you start a complete and thorough restoration. Itâs wasted effort, because youâre just going to have to do the paint job all over again. To make matters worse here, few people are ever going to see that wasted effort because itâs on PC only.
8 Likes
You simply canât tell all the RTGI etc. ppl to do things they canât do. I mean how you canât understand that? If they have been hired to do that they canât take care of AI or the horrible menus or such things, no they work on graphics then.
There is probably only a handful of ppl that understand the code of the AI and such, you canât just put a graphics artist in front of a desk and tell him to just do stuff he canât do.
And these coders donât grow on trees.
2 Likes
I understand what they can and canât do. I also understand what the people who tell them what to do should be doing and arenât doing. This game does not need any more graphical work right now. Whatâs so hard to understand about that? Form is supposed to follow function, not the other way around.
There are things that I wish I could say right now, but I canât. What I can say is that this game is still not on a good track, and too much time and effort is being spent on things that mean diddly-squat in the long run. I fear that by the time they actually get around to making an enjoyable experience instead of just a tech demo, the damage will be too much to actually overcome. RTGI means nothing if no one is there to actually see it.
6 Likes
You donât seem to understand that they canât just hire a whole army of coders. I am not a coder or graphics artist, but I am pretty sure itâs much more complicated to make an AI better or any other difficult coding than to create some textures or meshes or something. The coding is the much more difficult thing, you also canât just teach other ppl how to do that en masse. Coding is the most difficult thing about games, applications etc. itâs not the stuff you can see. And like I said they simply donât grow on trees.
So the argument âthey should focus on this or thatâ simply doesnât work.
They are most probably on a fixed budget, there are maybe just 2-3 ppl that know how the actual code works and they donât have the time to teach others how the code works. So they are the only ones working on the code and because of that it takes ages. That is how it probably is. They canât just âdo moreâ because we or they want that. Itâs a business and that is how it is.
There is a saying in german âZu viele KĂśche verderben die Suppeâ. means translated âToo many chefs/cooks ruin the soupâ or something. Itâs probably some sort of spaghetti code that would break if ppl that donât know much about it would work on it. You fix one thing and it breaks another thing. Similar to how it is in GTA Online. Itâs probably held together with saliva and duct tape or something. I mean we donât know that.
Of course I agree they should focus much more on the gameplay aspect of the game. But they are probably understaffed or what the word is, they simply donât have the manpower to do that fast. They are not Rockstar Games the richest of the rich game studios that can hire thousands of ppl.
2 Likes
Perhaps Turn 10 should have thought about that before they let their previous talent go, then. They should have thought about that before they went all-in on making a barely functional graphics showcase. They should have thought about that before they decided they were going to burn years on massive amounts of hype and frantic scrambling to deliver on said hype.
There is still no permanent content being added to the career mode after more than a year on the market. Thatâs not something that you need armies of coders to fix. Why is this game not only going into 2025 with that still unfixed, but also looking to make it past February with no movement on that horizon at all? Itâs things like that which need answers and attention a lot sooner than being able to see the reflections of the Maple Valley carnival in cars driving by.
13 Likes
Of course you are right, but it is what it is. We donât know why all that is what it is. Usually itâs the higher ups that come up with the bad ideas. And the regular ppl at the bottom of the food chain have to clean up the mess.
2 Likes