Ranked Adventure Ranking System flawed

I’ve been playing Forza for 10+ years and been playing ranked since FM6. I was Elite in FM6, Pinnacle in FM7, and now I’m stuck in rank 9 in FFA? I just came back to Forza recently when they said FH4 was transitioning to next gen and I’m really disappointed in this ranking system for FH4. What I discovered is that in order to consistently go up (not even at a fast rate) is to get top 2 in the series. Getting third can actually result in loss of points? How? That’s a podium position and I can still lose points. Podium position should be automatic point earnings period. In FM7, the ranking was based on start of position in the race, the amount of overtakes per race, clean laps, and finishing position. So if you start in last place with 16 racers but finish in 6th and had clean laps, you earned points no matter what. Now if you started in 1st and finished in 4th, you are bounded to lose points. Not guaranteed but possible to lose points. The higher position you start in and the more position you drop, that results in loss of points and that’s completely fair. Also some people might not know this but in FM6 and FM7, the fastest and/or clean laps will start ahead in the grid for the future races. They rewarded the fastest and/or clean drivers highest position starts. In FH4, it’s all out of sync. Since there’s no real vehicle restrictions, people can use any sort of vehicle(s) to give them a “boost” in the race; making the average driver better than what they are. So they use META vehicles like the Cobra Daytona Coupe for B Class, Atomic Punk Bubbletop for A Class, Ford GT for S1, Koenigsegg CCGT for S2, etc. These are some of the vehicles that people use because they are either a try hard or a scrub. Ranked is suppose to be competitive, however you are suppose to bring out your unique driving skills in whichever vehicles you choose. If you really are elite then bring something different to the table and challenge yourself or mainly have fun with the variety of vehicles given. How about using a Cadillac or a Jaguar or a Mercedes. Forza has had this issue since FM4, everyone conform to the best vehicles in each class just so they can keep up with the grid but they really don’t know what they want. You have all these vehicles and maybe 15% of the vehicle database will be frequently used. That’s 3/4 guaranteed of the vehicles that you’ll rarely see or not see at all. Turn 10 needs to do a better job at getting the unpopular vehicles getting used in competitive racing, not just the weekly playlist where you race the AI. So when people use these vehicles, it makes the racing experience that much less satisfying because the variety is not being encouraged to the players. The racing is rather annoying since the collision system is non-existent. You’re racing a cinderblock wall against another. They had to change the system in FM7 due to rammers sending you to the shadow realm but accidentally they aided the tanners because now they can hit you and their vehicle is either unaffected or they take you with them and the resistance is unnatural. You can’t even fight it in FH4. Once they hit you, your race is nearly ruined at that moment. I had a race yesterday where a driver was upset because they were underperforming in the grid setup and was getting passed up. In 2/3 races I tried to pass the driver, the driver hit me into a house the first race, second race got sent into a mountain. How is that fun? That’s frustrating because it’s nearly every race something like this will happen because there’s no penalties. 90% of this community don’t even know how to tune vehicles or even understand the behavior of the vehicle they are driving and all they know is straight-line speed. When it comes to cornering as a hole, they try to cut in front of you, even if you’re in the inside where there is no room to cut in, and use you as a turning wall to get through the corner. I’ve seen my vehicle and others get sent off the track because of this method. They don’t respect the brake line so they will ram into you and send you off the track or in a wall and there’s no consequences for improper or more than anything bad driving. You can deliberately drive bad and still win, as long as you use these cheese methods. Having the faster car doesn’t mean you’re a good driver. Once you add these factors in, now with the points given doesn’t add up. The grid order is always random, which it shouldn’t. It should be based on overall driver performance and we should have a driver grade to determine whose a good driver, elite driver, bad driver, or dirty driver. Forza is full of dirty drivers and it’s very easy to weed them out. That’s how the starting grid for each start of the series should be, top drivers start in the back and average in the front to balance the grid out. After race one, you finished in the top 3 you get a top 3 start position in the next race(s). If it’s a circuit race, fastest lap qualifys you for a top position in the next race(s). That’s fair and rewarding to the better drivers. You can start in last place and finish in first but if you don’t finish in the top 2 and the end of the series, you can most likely lose points for getting a podium position which don’t sound right. Basically what Turn 10 is saying is that in order to get to grandmaster, if it’s even possible, is to use every META vehicle(s) and you must get 1st place in every race and every session in order to consistently rank up. In other words, you have to sweat every single race and can’t have any type of fun while doing it. Lap times don’t matter, overtakes don’t matter, clean racing don’t matter, and podium position don’t even matter. All that matters is did you finish in 1st? How many people stayed in the race to multiply your point earnings? What rank was everyone? These factors shouldn’t be the deciding matter of how many points you earn. When you have this and all the other factors noted, ranked in FH7 is unfathomably unfair to the players of this game. The ranking system should be fair to the players strive to be better and who are better. Not catering to causal player which is imbalance to all. I’m tired of losing points for podium positions or getting my race ruined by a dirty racer. When will proper racing be encouraged? The game is supposed to be fun and/or competitive but that’s only if the community chooses to play correctly and the system supports it. FH4 Online Adventure is a disaster in disguise.


I only read about the first 6 lines of all that, but a huge difference vs FM7 is the ranked races being on-demand, so you end up racing against a field of mostly low rated people, whereas in FM7 leagues, you’d race against a lot of people reasonably close to your rank. So the reason you lose points for coming 3rd is because overall that isn’t a good result when it takes into account your rating and everyone else’s. I was never keen on how FM7 incentivised driving dirty laps to make sure you start lower down in the next race, and gave up racing in FM7 when I was the only person setting clean lap times, race after race, and hence I always started first and couldn’t gain points for overtaking people. In that sense, I think FH4 only using finish position is fine, and the problem is just that ELO type systems are only intended to work when people reasonably close in rating are competing against each other. The game brings people together who are too far apart in rating, and this violates one of the most basic principles behind the type of rating system it uses.

It seems clear that with FH4, they’re very much targeting casual gameplay, so I don’t think we’re going to see the problem solved by the introduction of scheduled races and championships to bring highly rated players together at the same time, like we see in some other games.


This again? It’s the competitive mode. If you want to succeed you need to use the best, or you’re handicapping yourself. If you want to do that, it’s your choice but you can’t complain if you don’t win against people who are.

The standard in ranked play is not good in the lower ranks in the main and for what it’s worth I could take a lot of non-meta cars and beat a lot of the people I see. But as I’m trying to climb as high as I can, I use the best cars and tunes I can. If you think it’s easy then jump in those cars yourself and prove your worth. I regularly see people using meta cars who put in poor times.

When you get to the top ranks you will find you lose ranking points even for winning a race, never mind just finishing 3rd. It is very tough and the skill level in the top ranks is extremely high. Even within the top 1% of players, there is a gulf in performance between the top of that group and the bottom. To not use the best cars against that level of difficulty is stupid, unless you just want to participate rather than be a contender.

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This again? It’s the competitive mode. If you want to succeed you need to use the best, or you’re handicapping yourself. If you want to do that, it’s your choice but you can’t complain if you don’t win against people who are.

The standard in ranked play is not good in the lower ranks in the main and for what it’s worth I could take a lot of non-meta cars and beat a lot of the people I see. But as I’m trying to climb as high as I can, I use the best cars and tunes I can. If you think it’s easy then jump in those cars yourself and prove your worth. I regularly see people using meta cars who put in poor times.

When you get to the top ranks you will find you lose ranking points even for winning a race, never mind just finishing 3rd. It is very tough and the skill level in the top ranks is extremely high. Even within the top 1% of players, there is a gulf in performance between the top of that group and the bottom. To not use the best cars against that level of difficulty is stupid, unless you just want to participate rather than be a contender.

See that’s the problem. See with Gran Turismo, they have specific vehicle/manufacture competitions which places everyone on even grounds. Therefore, you have to rely on your pure driving skills to win the race. That’s competitive. You can use the META vehicles to get you higher up in rank but it will lead to exposure of having lesser skill than others. Using META in general is a crutch i.e. a handicap to the player. I stand with what I said, using META doesn’t make you good. Scratch that, make you elite. Good players will use META to get them higher because it’s the most effective but elite players will put themselves in uncomfortable positions to better themselves as a whole. That way they know they don’t have to rely on META to actually consider themselves good when you are really not. It’s funny that people have the audacity to think that just because there’s a ranked mode, it’s considered competitive. This is not competitive. Not one bit. Not enough restrictions, too much freedom allowed to make practically any vehicle you want. People have no creativity, they rely on YouTube to find what cars work because they are lazy ass players. It gets annoying to see the same vehicles over and over and over again. All these great vehicles that people overlook and I take them and smoke the whole grid because I am THAT dude. Like what LeBron said, “We just built different”. Most people think they got it but they don’t. They will never use a Fiat in a race even though they have excellent B and A class vehicles. Shame on this community for condoning the META whore behavior which is why Forza will forever be the laughing stock of the racing community. If you want to use META vehicles thinking you all that, you not. I’ve race against some of the best Forza drivers like Lightning, Radical, Raceboy, and others and the fact that I was able to keep up with them as we split from the racing pack by ourselves told me that I’m on a different level. Until you prove to yourself that you can win races without META, you are not as good as you think you are. I have nothing to prove to anyone but myself.

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I would say I certainly am as good as I think I am… which is to say I know where my skill level gets up to and where it ends and is exceeded by others. Rivals is another competitive mode to use as a yardstick for that. Those elite players you speak of, they will not beat players of my relatively modest skill level if I am using the very best car and tune for a track, and they are using a mediocre non-meta car. Skill can only do so much. If you put Lewis Hamilton in the weakest F1 car he would get the best out of it, but he would no longer win races.

The people who use meta cars aren’t on some ego trip where they think they are driving gods because they beat players using the wrong cars. We know very well that if we finish 10 seconds ahead of someone using a bad car, it’s because the other driver picked the bad car. We know that. But your elite drivers you mention wouldn’t win against me either. They might get quite close but they can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.

In ranked, if I come up against a top player using a meta car which they usually will be, unless I am also in a meta car, I will lose. You would lose too. You’d lose because you’d chosen to race on a non-level playing field and pointlessly handicap yourself. (The exception to this is on very specific track and weather combinations where sometimes a relatively slow car with great handling can win against the one-size-fits-all class meta cars, but even then, those will still be the best handling cars with good tunes. You aren’t just going to jump in a random car and win, no matter who you are.)

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:clap:t2::clap:t2::clap:t2::clap:t2::clap:t2: That is great news; too bad that little news flash came at the very END of thirty minutes or so spent reading about how awesome you think you are, how highly you think of yourself, etc, etc…I could go on, but you seem to have sucked up all the forum’s oxygen in your Old Testament-length posts.

I shoulda followed breem’s lead and quit after the first few lines, but I actually did read every.last.word …and honestly, I agree on number of issues, such as the meta-induced gameplay ennui, toxic environments, and broken game modes, to name a few. Unfortunately, you also paint with very, very broad strokes with all your generalizations and pontifications. Look, dude, …you are preaching to the choir with all the “this is how it should be” stuff. This “community” you just defecated all over spent the last 18/20 some-odd months (seems like years) foaming at the mouth and obsessing over every god-forsaken detail of this game and rage-stalked developers into making a number of big changes (for better or for worse), though the state of the game remains far away from ideal.

In short, relative to the “this is how it should be” bemoaning,


Relative to reliance on meta in absence of homologation and other field-evening strategies…
Look, dude, nobody loves racing D500 Hillman Imps and AMC Gremlins more than I do. I also enjoy resisting the meta online as I prefer to spend my time racing that Spitfire I dearly love into 5th place (okay, okay, 10th place) rather than bang about in yet another soulless Shelby Daytona. In Rivals, I won’t touch the meta until the very end, if I even have to. But that’s me, and I know I’m a minority. So let’s just cut the :poop:; in a competitive environment with skilled players, on a ladder or otherwise, events that are restricted only by class with no homologation at work, etc, etc, OF COURSE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO USE THE (gasp) FASTEST VEHICLE AT THEIR DISPOSAL. To expect a player base of heathens, berserkers, and sociopaths to race throughout the Seventh Circle of Hell (aka Online Adventures) using only or mostly “experience-enhancing” vehicles as suggested by some arrogant and pompous Johnny-come-lately is, well, Pollyanna at best. Asinine, really. Tuners are gonna tune the bejesus of what’s available and the savvy and smart are going to figure out what works best here and there. So you can save the purity test/morality racing bs for another game.

This is the game, this is what what we have. It’s road and off-road, drifting and YES, Cross Country, casual and competitive… it’s also broken all the way to next Tuesday, with features on fire, burning down all around us. I (and no doubt many others) agree with you on some key points, …The difference is that we’ve all been here suffering through the endless gaffes, screw-ups, and fails since launch, with some in this community engaging in an endless (fruitless?) discussion, debating/cobbling together a patchwork of ideas and solutions. Believe me when I tell you that nothing you’ve offered is anything new; you would’ve done yourself a service if you took the the time to read any handful of threads.

Oh, last thing, …nobody cares what you did or who you saw in other games. FM3 was ELEVEN years ago; it’s literally Mtv’s The Jersey Shore-old. Nobody gives a flying fig. And whatever past achievements you believe to have relevance or pithy laurels your still resting your head on, …none of that carrys over. So, whatever it is that you say you don’t have to prove to anyone that you nevertheless have no problem laying on us all quite thick, you can just stop all of that. :ok_hand:t2: Like FullNietzsche said, put up or shut up.

(I do give you credit, however, for such lengthy ranting that did not include any sniveling about time-gating rewards or the mere fact that cross country even exists.)

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And let’s say for a moment that we didn’t have “meta” (a natural player construct, btw… devs don’t ‘make meta,’ players determine that via gameplay, but anyway…), or that car overpowering is greatly reduced from what we see today with players enjoying greater parity across the classes by way of a strengthened and balanced PI, etc. Tuners would still be tuning, perhaps even at a more exhaustive rate, to (gasp) continue fleshing out the most-meta of the non-meta.

Even if you took tuning out of the equation leaving us with just stock racing, we’d still be racing on a platform using a multi-tiered class system. That’d be something of a wonky world at first, but eventually players would (gasp) play the game, play Stock World out and quickly determine stock-meta (whatever ungodly hell that would be). I know there’s a few stock enthusiasts around here and they’d know better for sure, but I’m not too certain that whatever is sitting at the bottom of a class is going to be meta-competitive worthy with whatever is sitting atop of a respective class…perhaps with the exception of S2 madness.

Anyway, the point is meta will always be there, unless we’re all racing the same stock car with the same settings, …and even then, there’s no guarantee of an even level playing field where true skill reigns supreme to save the day, happily ever after, and so on, with cross-play enabling players to control the game via different peripherals. But for the sake of argument, let’s just say that we’ve let you reduce the game down to the racing of just a handful of similar stock vehicles and forcing all players into just one peripheral, etc etc…that starts sounding, to me anyway, like an entirely different (and un-fun sounding) game, definitely a game that doesn’t see a successor.

And then there’s that whole PC-hacking-exploiting-trash group of players hell-bent on violating every orafice of this game they can find, but I digress…

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If everyone was forced to use their own tunes (downloaded tunes prohibited in ranked), meta wouldnt matter as much. I’m fairly sure the top 1% are NOT using their own tune. How do I know? Anytime I beat someone with a decent rank, I immediately get a message asking: who’s tune is it? Mine and I dont share. Goes to show you its a culture of that going on in ranked and probably everywhere else in the game. In my opinion, its a cheap way to get to the top of the table with the best players in the world, they dont even distinguish between those who tune their own rides vs those who download someone else’s work. At the very least, force everyone to tune their own cars in ranked and that would weed out all the short cutters.

I’m back to completely skipping A class dirt because of the hula and the atomic. If I knew for certain people were tuning those cars themselves, I wouldnt feel so annoyed when I lose to one. Same thing is starting to happen in S1 dirt. Most people using the Baja WP. Even got asked about who’s tune it was when I used it in S1 cross country. Its just too many ways to handicap your way to the top. If they dont wanna force people to tune their own cars, at least give us a hardcore ranked lobby for those of us who do the work ourselves.

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I don’t think the first bit is true. Many of the top 1% are using theirs own builds & tunes. No3, Platinum, Exq, Ivyyy, Marple and others all run theirs own creations.
If we use Rivals as definition for 1% I would have to count myself in and I’m exclusively using my own builds. Of course there is some kind of build sharing but eventually all players mentionend above and myself are creating it by themselves.

On top of that I don’t see a problem in using other players’ work to rank up. On the track it’s about driving and not building. I was always a fan of expanding the current tuning/sharing system back to a system that allows the sharing of unlocked builds & tunes. So that everyone could tweak the build/tune to fit to their own driving style.

@ OP: The Ranked system is broken in many ways, yes.

Meta cars can be annoying but I also don’t see a way to fully eliminate them. Thousands of ways to build hundreds of cars to specific PI levels can never be a fully balanced system. I agree that PG doesn’t do enough to soften obvious flaws in the system which make it basically possible to predict a cars’ performance before testing. But it’ll always be a system of strong and weak cars.
As a conclusion of this it’s obvious the best cars will be used in the competitive modes of the game (doesn’t matter if you value them competitive personally. they are the competitive modes in the game). And there is no blaming for doing so.
Everything else is limiting your own potential. At the very top, cars are the limiting factor.

It gets boring very quickly and combined with the massively flawed Ranked mode I completely switched to Unranked.
The overall pace and aggression are lower allowing the usage of the cars you want to drive instead of those you would need to win.

As a side note: no-one cares about name dropping of players you raced against and maybe were on pace with. Many here on the forum did or do it quite regurlarly :wink:

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I’m going to try and beat sL1M BigBoi’s lap at Holyrood and I think we’ll all have to agree it will be very impressive if I can do it. sL1M BigBoi is one of the best players in the game, he told us so himself. So beating him even by an inch will be a very great feat indeed :stuck_out_tongue: (sarcasm doesn’t always translate well over the internet :stuck_out_tongue: )

Just did 58.1 in summer rivals using ‘Omegalul’ tune by GTz Marple. It isn’t a very fast car for the class and my time is top 11%, I will try again in a meta car. Don’t like this track though, very boring just going round and round.

56.1 first flying lap in CCGT. Top 5%. Probably competitive in a typical ranked match but I always skip adventures with this track as the biggest danger is falling asleep going round and round…

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I’ve no idea on the conditions, and one guy did quit, but it was a League 13. He did win by an 18 second margin, but ranked scoring doesn’t take how much you win or lose by into consideration for scoring, does it? Isn’t just your final race positon and incoming rank’s relative difference that matters?

+1 for sarcasm :smile:

FN, Jezza, and of course Rayne…you guys are all top notch and the real deal, so of course you guys would blow out mr best in the game. But what happens to that credibility when a lesser-skilled, somewhat unpolished player bests slimbo’s time? One who doesn’t even care much at all for S2 racing and may even avoid it — stinks at it, even? Surely that’s not possible, right? And where could we even find such a person?

Oh, wait, …I’m that person! And yeah, I sure freakin’ did. I’m still a good couple of hours behind FN’s rival time, but if even a stinky Squryl can manage a 58.759 in a AM Vulcan, well, R.I.P. Credibility.


Update: Today I used a Porsche 911 GT1 in S2. Literally smoked the competition by a mile. Got 1st overall and I GOT MINUS 9 POINTS! …not only the ranked point system is skewed but the matchmaking makes it that much worse giving you players lower than you and you get punished for winning like you’re suppose to? WHATS EVEN THE POINT? You can’t rank up properly. You have to resort to manipulating the system just to rank up. At this point, these numbers by your name in ranked are subjective; can’t tell who is who. This is why Forza is a inferior game. Ever since FM4 they went 10 steps backwards and never came back. Unbelievable.

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What’s your rank and what were the opposition’s?

Hello, what’s this?

What were the conditions for this? I just did a fairly easy 56 second lap in Winter conditions as I wasn’t sure what a reasonable time was for S2 Holyrood.

Hard to understand why that would have led to -9 as there’s another League 9 in the adventure. Possibly they quit before the end? If the account is relatively new then possibly it might have led to a stupidly volatile points loss? I think everyone’s in agreement that negative points for winning should never happen!

Hmm I’m surprised a league 9 would get -9 even for beating weak opponents, I think the worst I’ve had was -3 and I’m ranked higher than him. Maybe if they were all 19-20 but I haven’t had a lobby like that to know.

sometimes when people quit even all but one the points count

not sure why

may be they where disconounted and they did not quit mmmm

I agree with all of Rayne’s post - other than I’d say he’s in the top 0.01% :slight_smile: - he’s being modest. Limiting ranked to just those using their own tunes would just create even greater divisions in standard. One of the great things about the Forza community is most of the top guys choose to share really good tunes so that others can also benefit from their work. Ultimately, if you are a good tuner then you have the best of both worlds - you can tune your own cars in a style you enjoy and you can still benefit from the work of others.

Why are people hating on using tunes. I don’t know how to tune really at all but I like driving and the top players sharing tunes helps people like me who are not knowledgeable about tuning still compete at the top with driving skill

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Sorry Squryl. It was more a question for the OP on conditions as I know you just found the screenshot. Possibly it was monsoon rain. Was just trying to get a feel of how quick or slow the times were - obviously they would be pretty poor if it was Summer!

Similar on the question of whether the other League 9 quit. We don’t know if this was the last race in the adventure - there’s definitely one playlist where Holyrood is first - so he might have quit later.

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