Info update on leaderboard cleanup

As announced on the Forza Support twitter feed:

  • Work remains ongoing to clean up the Forza Horizon 5 Leaderboards. To date, we have removed over 3.7 million entries from over 700 Rivals Leaderboards. This week we processed another group of cheated times on our Rivals Leaderboards including some of the most egregious examples.
  • We’ve identified that some of the times removed in the latest Rivals Leaderboard clean-up were legitimate scores. This happened due to a miscalculation in the back-end system. We managed to restore a portion of those scores which are now back on the leaderboards, however, due to back-end limitations, we couldn’t restore them all. Our sincerest apologies to those affected by this, it was not our intention to remove those times.
  • Our work on the health and fairness of Forza Horizon 5’s Leaderboards will continue, and we will provide another update on this process once we have one.
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Appreciate the update. Wow. So, something like over 50,000 cheaters ? Sounds lower than I expected somehow but then I guess that’s a good thing ?

Not good enough. Taking a year and a half to still not resolve a day 1 issue properly is pathetic! Leaderboards are a key aspect of this game and remain broken.

To add to this mess, not only have WRs I’ve set been removed which took quite some time and effort to set, but other players who have recently just set WRs in the last few days have lost theirs too.

And all you say is a basic generic apology? This is the time when PGG should credit players due to their incompetence.

Get it together… Seriously! This is not a beta test program where players should expect issues. This is a paid released game and needs to be fixed. Stop talking and start fixing.

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Are there systems in place now to prevent new illegitimate times from getting on the board?

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I’ll just link to the post I made on this topic 3 months ago, which applies entirely here.

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Glad of some of the progress but deleting some legit WR times is a disgrace, that’s not even being harsh calling it that.

The A Cordillera board has been sorted so I can rest with that Rivals challenge track now my time is in it’s correct place.

But then I went to look through a few others and there is still daft times at the top of LB’s, including at S1 El Pipila where the #1 player doesn’t exist, I mean literally doesn’t exist, they’re up there as Unknown and you get nothing if you try viewing their profile.

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Has the team or dev who implemented the AI been tasked with fixing the leaderboards?

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There just doesn’t seem to be a clear, concise thought-out approach to this clean-up, which would provide a fully automated purge. It’s baffling that a group of programmers at an AAA studio can’t seem to figure this out.

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Well said @PacyFire and exactly my thoughts

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Going by what happened, i assume that they’ve added a cap on the maximum time you can set

Unless they have done what EA did here to come up with those gold medal requirements they can’t have even a rough idea of what the absolute quickest times are.

It still boggles my mind that they have enough data to replay the ghost for any players race. Yet they are incapable of using said data to detect illegitimate times.

Go to any leaderboard and pick any illegitimate top 10 time. What you will notice is their ghost doesn’t speed through the track slightly faster, nor do the ghosts go around bends by defying physics (only the PGG AI do this). Instead what you will notice is their ghosts don’t move at all!

How hard can it be to fix this? By the time PGG fix this the game will be end of life. And that’s no exaggeration, that’s the truth…

I half expect PGG to remove leaderboards completely in FH6 and label them as toxic to hide their own incompetence.

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That’s entirely likely, though it presents another challenge.

While you catch the players that are obviously cheating and setting times way faster than any human ever can, how do you catch the cheaters that are only giving themselves 1% extra grip, or 5% extra power?

A #1 from one of those is almost indistinguishable from a legitimate time, at least it is for us players who only have a ghost to follow (outside of the ones where the ghost is teleporting of course).

Ultimately, I think the solution is to implement VAC ban systems on Steam, and I’m sure it’s something that’s been discussed already at Playground.

We did that for DiRT Rally 2.0 and combined with a “theoretical best human time” check, there’s been almost zero cheating in that game over the past 4 years. In fact I can count the number of cheater incidents on a single hand, at least the ones I directly passed on to the dev team.

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I’m glad something is being done, but like I said during the first wipe: I would’ve preferred if they just reset the leaderboards so we could start over back then. That way we would have all been on the same playing field and wouldn’t feel unfairly singled out with hard earned/personally cherished times deleted (from our POV). Especially now after the drift leaderboard wipe and the jesko patch not being addressed at the same time. People are having fun with drift zones again because of it. Granted it doesn’t seem like they really came up with a countermeasure either way, so it wouldn’t have made a difference I guess.

Assuming this is even possible, I can confidently say as per my previous post I’ve never seen or suspected such illegitimate times in the top 100 of rival leaderboards.

Every time I’ve inspected an illegitimate ghost it has been clear as days. And in most/all cases it doesn’t appear to be cheating but rather a bug where a players time has been incorrectly registered on a given board for some unknown reason. Well I say some unknown reason but it’s a well known issue that custom blueprints have caused just this in the past.

The second and final expansion comes out later this month. With it comes a whole new set of fresh leaderboards. Watch how quickly they get contaminated with illegitimate times.

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Well, that’s why I added the part at the end about not having a countermeasure so in the end it didn’t matter. I do think though if the new customization makes something we have currently impossible to replicate then they should wipe the leaderboards anyway though. That was my original thought with the drift zones in month one, jesko 330mph thing, and those HW physics changes. Just seems odd that it wasn’t done at those points.

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Appreciate you saying this but as someone who has spent countless hours grinding away at leaderboards, setting top 10/25/100 times and a handful of WRs, I would be disappointed I guess if someone just removed all of that simply because it was the easiest option.

I also know many other players like me, even DJS who spend countless hours on tunes specific to tracks which they then spend countless hours on to set top times. If someone were to just wipe those then it’s kinda like why do we even bother playing this game…

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Every single rivals time I set except for HMC was deleted in the first wave. I’m still not sure if those HMC times are safe from deletion. I haven’t really done rivals since my times were deleted since I don’t know if they’ll get deleted again either. I don’t know where they were at the point of deletion, but I also had comparable records (when I set them) that took a lot of effort and time. I can set them again, it’s not like I forgot how to drive the tracks, it’s just the uncertainty of whether I’m wasting my time is there.

Anyway that wasn’t really the point, it was more that I’d just have preferred an even playing field reset… and then some preparedness from PGG for any future leaderboard problems.

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Wow sorry to hear that. I don’t really keep track of any of my times but after the first purge I didn’t notice any of my times that I cared for were impacted. It wasn’t till the other day when someone mentioned a WR they literally just set and one which I watched them set was removed. This caused me to check a few of my WRs and soon learn they were removed too.

I like this game and want to support PGG however I can either financially by purchasing their products or non financially through constructive feedback. But boy do they make it hard sometimes… It’s like they want us to disown them and become disgruntled customers.

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