Okay, fine, but you can’t really ignore Cross Country events. You have to play and win each race at least once in order for it to count towards total percentage completed, and they are occasionally requirements whenever they appear in the Festival Playlist, so stating that players who don’t like them should just ignore them is FAR from a solution to the issue.
In reality, I would rather see these events be improved rather than be gone out right, but if the AI are going to continue to cheat on a massive scale, and if the track layouts are going to continue to be poorly designed, then they may as well not exist. Plain and simple, and I’m sorry you didn’t like what I had to say.
No where did I say I didn’t like what you said. So easy to criticize the developers but to say the AI “continues to cheat on a massive scale” ?
Is the game not easy enough? You can rewind until your heart’s content…
You say the track layouts are “poorly designed and might as well not exist”? That’s harsh without offering reasons of some kind and I would suggest that you take into account that this is an Arcade type game where fiction comes into play in a big way. I am sorry if you are missing the point of this particular game. Have a nice day, really I am not out to upset anyone. But I have to defend a game that I enjoy very much that’s all.
I say the AI cheats on a massive scale because it does. On asphalt and dirt races, first and sometimes second place are already given artificial boosts to stay ahead of the pack to “make things more difficult.” In Cross Country events, meanwhile, AI at the head of the pack are not only given this speed boost, but the whole grid is unaffected by different track surfaces and even phase through destructible objects that slow the player down, but not the AI. It may not sound like much on paper, but it does make a big difference in the overall experience of the racing, especially in Cross Country racing.
Rewinding is helpful, but I don’t think it should ever be a gameplay feature to constantly fall back, and Cross Country events require it more than the other events because a lot can go wrong without it being the players fault due to, again, either the cheating AI, or a flaw in the track design.
As for the bad track design, there’s too many of what I like to call dead drops. There’s many jumps off cliffs that bring the car to a dead halt upon landing, which completely kills the flow of the race. There’s also many instances where jumps are immediately followed by a hairpin turn that is almost nearly impossible to brake for in time, even sometimes with knowledge of the course. These races are also packed with way too much destructible objects, which not only slow you down, but make it WAY too easy to farm skill points.
Also, besides tuning, Cross Country is pretty much the only game mode that makes Horizon really lean into arcade more than simcade. It’s the most unrealistic race type in the whole game, and combined with the bad track design and the cheating AI, it needs a major revamp should it stay going forward. Personally, I’d like to see it become more like actual rally raid racing in real life, where most of the tracks are like Trails and Scrambles, but the terrain is much harsher with an occasional race in a wider, open off-road area like a desert.
I played some FH3 and 4 the past couple of months and the pattern that i observed, which basically applies to Horizon 5 too was basically:
The AI is either too fast or too slow. And at the lower classes like (anything from D to A class) the driveatars are fairly easy to beat, even on unbeatble with just a stock car. But then once i go to S1 and S2 it’s where they really start to pull off some insane speeds. And if i want to have a fighting chance with either a stock car or a fully maxed out one, i would have to lower the difficulty to Pro. And even then i often get into a situation , at say 50-75% of the track where that 1 or 3 drivers are significantly more difficult to overtake than the rest of the grid.
I’ve also noticed the difficulty on each track also feels proportionally unbalanced. There are some tracks that i would be able to easily overtake most of the AI if not all of them before reaching 50% of the track And others where there’s always those 1-3 driveatars marching way ahead of everyone. The last 10 % of most tracks in the game always include a very very long straight where the AI would very suddenly become insanely quick. And sure i could try to block it. But if im racing more than 2 cars on that straight, im not gonna be able to block them forever because it’s just gonna cost me loosing my position anyway.
Also using RWD in dirt racing puts me in a big disadvantage against the AI and i’ve only noticed this in Horizon 5. Like it’s not even an option to use RWD if i’m playing on Pro or Unbeatable.
Then there’s the false breaking zones, AI passing through water like nothing, AI racing equally as fast if not faster on a wet track. And they often happen to push into each other or me, especially in the early stages of a race or whenever there’s a pack of cars on specific parts of the track. ( like those 90degree turns)
It’s also weird to me how everyone was calling out FM’s AI for having no sense of it’s surroundings but the Horizon AI is pretty much the same. And i’ve heard and seen from multiple people (some of then fairly new to horizon) being really annoyed when the AI starts pushing them. Especially when using cockpit cam and having limited access to your surroundings. It makes cockpit racing a bit disencouraging, unless you wait for the cars to dissipate for the first 30-40 % of the track.
Reminded me of this jump right before the Atlantes de tula landmark. Take it too quick, you end up in the wall. Or the ones where your car just bottoms out into the ground. Sure i like big jumps but as you said , it just gets to a point where it hurts the flow and not just that but the design as well. I really like the idea of CC leaning more towards rally raid type scrambles. Makes me think of playing Dirt 2.
I agree with nearly everything you wrote there, with the caveat that I’ve found D-class racing to be some of the most unfair of all depending on the circumstances. I think there are two main causes: for one, none of the stock cars in that class have enough power to separate themselves from a pack. The bread-and-butter move to overtake Forza’s AI is to outbrake them (or, y’know, lean on them) into a corner, and then pull away from them exiting it, but that’s much harder to do in a plodding D-class car. The other reason, and maybe the more impactful one, is that by its nature D-class has a wider performance range than any other in the game. So if you choose one of the higher-PI cars in the class, the AI will pull out some absurd Peel upgrade that can rocket away from the field in a straight line. Granted it also can’t turn at all, but you still might not be able to catch up to it.
Racing in S2 pro/unbeatble difficulty is just such a pain. Especially in a stock car. Even racing with those purpose build race cars like the Ford gt le mans car(pre-equiped with slicks and anti-roll bars, weight reduction) RWD just stands no chance. I mean 0.
Their grip levels, the speed. I’ve honestly had an easier time using S2 in Forza Motorsport than in Horizon. Maybe partially due to the meta being completely flipped. Like AWD in FM isn’t really viable. (especially at the higher car classes)
And then if i were to use AWD i’m either sort of able to compete or just it suddenly becomes too easy to get past most of them. So i find myself constantly in a limbo between upgrading or not upgrading a car/ using rwd or not using rwd because on some tracks the AI just gives up or on other tracks they just completely wipe the floor with me. And never anything in between.
About D class racing - Top Gun’s comment was very accurate. There are some really terrible cars in the game (and ofc not every car has to be a beast, when PG builds those cars they try to give them a somewhat accurate representation) but it just the racing can be very inconsistent.
I’m sure many people including me sometimes prefer to use stock cars because it’s just more fun to have to deal with the quirks instead of always aiming to make “the perfect car” with the most perfect speed and handling. And the racing can feel a bit more authentic. As opposed to just maxing out the car and just doing the same monotonous and safe racing.
The inconsistent difficulty of the AI just makes the gap between doing relatively well and doing extremely well - pretty much nonexistent. I could easily just lower the difficulty and not play on Unbeatable but then i run into the issue of passing the AI too easily and just cruising for the majority of a race, instead of actually racing.
I hope they’ve improved the AI for Horizon 6 or at least they’ve shaken up it’s usual characteristics significantly. But i fear there’s just too many variables to control, especially in a car list as large as up to a 1000 cars.
If we’re talking about inconsistency then it would be nice to see mentioned when they are also absolutely awful rather than just the times where people lose to them…
2:56.898 from the fastest AI is a time even 701PI cars can comfortably beat on there.
I want consistency from the AI as well but I’m sorry if you’re being truly fair then it goes both ways, them offering a fair challenge at the highest difficulties in my view doesn’t just mean they stop doing the occasional ridiculous time, it also means they’d consistently do achievable but still strong times and punish bad/unsuitable car choices and tuning setups, which personally I don’t think a lot of people would actually like.
For all the times many are quick to point out (or just claim and expect it to be believed without any evidence) when an AI’s supposedly been unreasonably fast I seldom see anyone take any sort of issue with when they’ve gone a pace comparable to the lowest two difficulties, when it’s ultimately the same issue but at the other end of the scale.
This weeks eventlab was not funny, at least not in solo mode, the AI really had their afterburners turned up to beyond 11.
On highly skilled they were uncatchable, even with very good trusted tunes that i used many times before, both in event labs, normal races and championships.
Depending on the class of the vehicle, for road/ street races what can help when the AI are in god mode is using a car that is one level down, and bumping it to just barely over the limit (like 801 in S class). It requires tuning the car yourself, but the game will also handicap the AI to some extent, which can prevent “the chosen one” from putting a 30 second gap on the field during the first lap.
For Hot Wheels events- tune for power. Ignore braking, ignore steering. Power and top speed. Then wall ride. The AI will drive so fast in S1 and S2 it can break the physics of the game (I have seen them phase through loops, or launch into the sky off of bumps)- so if they’re not going to obey the laws of physics, neither am I.
For Rally and cross country events- Ram, rewind, repeat. The AI will blatantly ignore physics in these events, can accelerate and change direction in mid air, and will often just teleport right behind you.
In Dirt races, the AI aren’t quite as bad about ignoring physics once you get above B class. In the lower classes it usually requires a VERY specific build (see also: power) to beat them, but once you get into the higher classes, they’re a little less cheaty.
I have built multiple tracks that showcase the AI’s ability to drive on roads that aren’t there, teleport, phase through solid objects, and achieve ludicrous speeds no matter what the class- and people still insist that it isn’t happening.
What practical use does that serve? Of all the things you could possibly do in the game you decide the best choice is to build tracks solely for the purpose of reminding yourself of how hard done by you think you always are by the AI?
It started out as a way to test under what circumstances the AI obey which rules of physics as dictated by the game, then progressed to seeing how many of the rules the AI would break at the same time, but I continue to do it because breaking the AI is fun.
And because you brought it up: This is the AI phasing through concrete
You don’t need to tell or show me the AI cheat, I’ve seen a much better and more practical in real terms way first hand with them doing times that are flat out impossible.
It’s been over 4 years in this game and they pulled similar nonsense in FH4, we know how the AI work by now, there’s an ulterior motive to anyone still going on so incessantly about how broken they are like it’s some brand new discovery.
95% of the time however much people want to convince themselves otherwise they’ll do a perfectly achievable time, just because a player and/or their car wasn’t good enough to beat them doesn’t automatically mean they must have cheated, but many will gladly pat themselves on the back and ignore the many times they’re absolute rubbish, sometimes going 20+ seconds slower than what would be considered a good time and fitting of the game’s highest difficulty.
I’m confused. You insinuated in your first statement that it was obviously a lack of skill on my part, and when presented with evidence of the behavior I was talking about, you suddenly have no need to see it because you know it happens?
Just because YOU knew about it in FH4, does not mean it is not frustrating for people new to the game, or the franchise. Lots of folks on Playstations are probably getting their first taste of this. If the topic of conversation bothers you so much, you always have the option of not commenting, and letting people here discuss the inconsistency of the AI, and its propensity to cheat.
“Definitive proof”- 200-267-597 The AI doesn’t even have a track here, and never crosses the 2nd checkpoint, but that doesn’t slow them down one bit.
“Impossibre challenge”- 428-246-906 Keep left (the first trap has broken collisions, so you’ll need to go pretty far to the left). The AI has no path through, and will phase through concrete, fences, roads, shipping containers, and mining trucks- and probably still catch you.
“AI Hover mode”- 147-992-457 The AI technically has a path, but it’s really (REALLY) bumpy. They will still have lap times within 5 seconds of yours, despite this.
“Don’t follow the AI”- 135-313-430 I just made this one to mess with them. The player path through should be pretty obvious, for extra fun you can park and watch them crash.
“Don’t follow the drivatars” 126-506-464 another one that is for the sole purpose of messing with them. They will drive off a cliff (twice per lap) and off a bridge (sadly just once per lap), and still do a pretty decent job of keeping pace. Player path could be better marked, but it’s pretty easy to figure out.
I have a few more, also been working on testing how the drivatars interact with the Hot Wheels boosters, because why just send them off a cliff, when you can send them flying halfway across the map?
All done vs Unbeatable with stock cars, the Evo doesn’t even have appropriate tires for dirt, the Essenza is a bad car choice for Copper and the Czinger has huge understeer under hard cornering due to the always horrible stock settings.
Plus I have done a bunch of these over time in the Trial….
So even with bad launches, massively underpowered cars or inappropriate tires I didn’t encounter uncatchable AI, but others do supposedly all the time, must just be my luck
I think it’s perfectly understandable for people to talk far more about instances when the AI is inhumanly fast than times when it’s hilariously slow. For one, it’s basic human nature: people want to do well in the game, and when they’re prevented from doing so by what they perceive as unfair AI behavior, that’s going to stick in their minds. But more to the point, the game’s basic design actively incentivizes that attitude. By default nearly all of the racing consists of 3-minute sprints that force you to start near the back and don’t give you the chance to improve that through qualifying, so you’re forced to plow through the field as quickly as possible to get to the front. (Just to be clear, I don’t necessarily want a qualifying system in an open-world arcadey game like Horizon; I’d turn to a proper sim if I did.) This is compounded by most post-launch content being added to the game via the FOMO Playlist system, which usually requires you to win events to obtain its rewards. So most players will want to plow through those events as quickly as possible to get their rewards, and the AI being slow in certain races just makes it easier to blow by them and get the event over with.
It’s why I chuckle when people bemoan the terrible driving standers in Open and the Trial. The game actively trains you to drive like a maniac in singleplayer, because pulling massive dive-bombs and leaning on other cars is by far the most effective way to get around the AI in the very short amount of time a standard race lasts. Why would anyone be surprised that most players don’t magically stop driving like lunatics just because there happen to be human beings in the other cars?
But that’s the thing, most of the time they aren’t actually inhumanly fast, they just do a pace an individual can’t match and out of at least one of a lack of game knowledge, lack of objectivity or plain old bruised ego their default response is that they must have been cheated without any factual basis for it.
Take the current Trial’s first race, if an AI does under 2 minutes on Tapalpa that is uncatchable territory, based on even the good Super Saloons only being capable of 2-3 seconds faster in Rivals, but if somebody can’t ever get near an AI that does say a 2:15-2:20? Sure that would be a bit unlucky but there’d be nothing broken about it either, any appropriately built + tuned Super Saloon driven decently can still beat that kind of time comfortably, if they didn’t bring one or didn’t drive well then there really isn’t anything in that scenario that the game itself can be blamed for.
I’m thinking more of those instances when a specific car or two winds up miles ahead of the rest of the field, including the other AI drivers, even when every car in the field is ostensibly in the same narrow PI range. Hell, I’ve even seen it happen with AI that are at their car’s stock PI level. Even if the whole field of players has a relatively clean start to the race, no one has a prayer of catching an AI like this, because they’ve already checked out beyond the rest of the field. And it happens on a regular basis.
Now is saying these times are “inhuman” a bit of an exaggeration? Probably. But if they are physically possible, then they’d be right at the top of a heavily-contested Rivals leaderboard, and I hope you’d agree that your average player shouldn’t be expected to match those times in a widely-available weekly Playlist event.
