So I’ve played a tonne of sims on PC and consoles… dating back to the 80s (yes, we had sims back then… pretty decent too at the time).
I love every aspect of how Forza depicts real world physics, and FM6 hit some very nice high notes.
The thing is, braking feels too easy and well… not so nuanced. Even older cars that aren’t considered “high performance” road cars are easy to stop. And as you are braking hard and try to initiate your turn in, the cockpit wheel somewhat locks up… its as if the game won’t let you turn properly unless you complete let go of the brakes before entering the turn.
Another example, if you brake on some cars during a turn, they start to oversteer, which is indeed correct though the front wheels break loose… and right when that happens, the wheels will no longer turn…and ONLY turn the moment your car regains traction in the front wheels.
This isn’t correct I believe - forget every other sim, even IRL, cars do not lock up their steering wheels if you start to oversteer or understeer mid-turn. I’m on a controller BTW, maybe this phenomena is not experienced on a wheel, where the players gets full freedom to turn, i.e. no cap on steering or speed sensitive steering.
Can you seasoned simmers offer some insights?
Would love to hear one of the staff members respond to this, and perhaps update the physics slightly to make braking feel more nuanced and address this strange steering modeling on a controller. Even if I’m turning at 50 kph, and the front wheels break traction, that’s it… can’t turn them further until they regain traction. That’s odd.
However, when you turn ABS on, the game lets you steer more around turns especially when you go into a turn with momentum while trail-braking.
Hmm well I run with a wheel and I get what you mean about the braking and turning point… I run all assists of except sim steering. I tuned it out a little bit by having the braking pressure around 80% though some cars like even less and others like more. It gave me more freedom to brake turning in a corner and according to the benchmark, it reduced my braking distance a tonne on pretty much all of my cars… Hope this helps
Right, I’ll reduce the brake pressure, that should help, as I’m not a fan of using ABS to counter this issue. Would suck though to have the brakes upgraded on all my cars mumble grumble
Yes SatNite, it does make sense - what doesn’t make sense is the fact that the front wheels refuse to turn any more once they do lose traction. I don’t remember this ever happening while actually driving. You can continue to go to as much lock as you want even if the front wheels break traction. Agreed? Forza’s steering model feels relatively linear on a pad and is too restrictive.
Ah, I failed to mention in my post: I only use SIM steering. Have been since FM4. If anything, normal steering lets you steer a bit more around corners as it doesn’t take into account the loss of grip in the front wheels. On one hand, it makes sense that the car understeers due to loss of grip in the front. What doesn’t make sense is why the game refuses to let me steer any more in the same direction should I break traction. There’s no way in heck you can save your car mid-corner if you loss traction in the front wheels - rather than having the freedom to steer more to correct your trajectory, you are forces to either brake harder or use throttle to powerslide out of the corner.
Yes, I know the front wheels break loose as a result of braking too hard into corners or understeering - what I find bizarre is that the game’s steering (cockpit view) just locks in place while this loss of traction occurs. If the front wheels are loose, I should be able to turn even more with ease to correct my direction. I find it annoying that you have to regain traction in the front wheels in order to get a sharper turn angle, if that makes sense.
Yes, I know the front wheels break loose as a result of braking too hard into corners or understeering - what I find bizarre is that the game’s steering (cockpit view) just locks in place while this loss of traction occurs. If the front wheels are loose, I should be able to turn even more with ease to correct my direction. I find it annoying that you have to regain traction in the front wheels in order to get a sharper turn angle, if that makes sense. [/quote]
I think what you’re experiencing is just Forzas controller assists man. It doesn’t matter if you’re on sim or normal steering it’ll make it more linear to help you out.
On a side note, if I am reading your post here correctly. The reason you don’t like this is because you want to turn deeper into the corner to correct your trajectory while understeering. This is a major no no in driving in Forza or IRL. It’s exactly why Forza has this assist.
If you’re understeering, your front tyre are already overwhelmed. Turning the steering more will make this worse. If you’re understeering what you want to do is back off on the steering till you find more grip will easing off on the throttle a little to give you a bit of weight on the front tyres and slow. This will slow you down to the appropriate speed for the corner as you have went in too hot if you’re understeering without power, then you can adjust your trajectory appropriately.
Forza just makes this process easier on a controller by taking away the ability to steer way too far.
I think what you’re experiencing is just Forzas controller assists man. It doesn’t matter if you’re on sim or normal steering it’ll make it more linear to help you out.
On a side note, if I am reading your post here correctly. The reason you don’t like this is because you want to turn deeper into the corner to correct your trajectory while understeering. This is a major no no in driving in Forza or IRL. It’s exactly why Forza has this assist.
If you’re understeering, your front tyre are already overwhelmed. Turning the steering more will make this worse. If you’re understeering what you want to do is back off on the steering till you find more grip will easing off on the throttle a little to give you a bit of weight on the front tyres and slow. This will slow you down to the appropriate speed for the corner as you have went in too hot if you’re understeering without power, then you can adjust your trajectory appropriately.
Forza just makes this process easier on a controller by taking away the ability to steer way too far.
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First of all it isn’t just an animation issue, the wheels actually stop turning.
And it is a problem because it suddenly pops when your speed or whatever triggers it goes back to normal causing loss of control.
It also for some reason triggers on carousel on the ring meaning you have to take it significantly slower than you could otherwise.
Typically a little understeer isn’t going to ruin your corner, but here it goes from loss of control to snap oversteer or if you keep pushing the stick the car will suddenly snap in the direction you are steering, which leads me to believe it kicks in way before loss of traction would even occur. And even when understeering you still have the ability to rotate your car in all but extreme conditions. So with this system a mistake can’t be corrected. It’s a bad system or a bug.
I want complete control of my car, this needs to be fixed. Nobody here needs a lesson in how to drive except the people who claim this system is correct or working properly.
First of all it isn’t just an animation issue, the wheels actually stop turning.
And it is a problem because it suddenly pops when your speed or whatever triggers it goes back to normal causing loss of control.
It also for some reason triggers on carousel on the ring meaning you have to take it significantly slower than you could otherwise.
Typically a little understeer isn’t going to ruin your corner, but here it goes from loss of control to snap oversteer or if you keep pushing the stick the car will suddenly snap in the direction you are steering, which leads me to believe it kicks in way before loss of traction would even occur. And even when understeering you still have the ability to rotate your car in all but extreme conditions. So with this system a mistake can’t be corrected. It’s a bad system or a bug.
I want complete control of my car, this needs to be fixed. Nobody here needs a lesson in how to drive except the people who claim this system is correct or working properly.
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Thanks mate! That resonates well with the point I’m trying to get across.
I should have full control over my front wheels irrespective of whether the front tyres break loose or not. I don’t want to invest in an expensive wheel as I don’t have proper space in my room to accommodate it. Due to this bug/steering assist/cap, the control can feel linear on a pad and this is why I go to PCARS from time to time - you have so much more control over your car, and YOU the driver, gets to dictate what turning angle to take around corners, not the game.
As one gentleman before you pointed out, you have to go slow into corners which makes perfect sense; however, if you want to brake mid corner, and sometimes a little harder than normal, the car just starts understeering, and THAT’s when the wheels literally lock in place and I’m trying hard to hit the apex but the front wheels refuse to turn even though my speed is correct!
Due to these hidden aids, it disappoints me how the game can feel a bit arcade in nature. The steering cap/hidden aids removed on controller along with more nuanced braking physics would make Forza a proper sim.
Anyway, I understand the game has to be accessible on one hand, but on the other, it should be have more customization for sim lovers like you and I.
They’ve improved the suspension physics quite a bit since FM4, and I’m really happy about that. Steering and brakes should be given priority next. Maybe outsource some of that to Brembo? lol
In normal situation you don’t break into corners. But I you use the trigger very very gentle then you can break and turn into corners. But not at high speed. Otherside is that the brakes in forza generic and they react like in sim. The breaks are a weak point in fm, but that’s one of the things that whe have to deal with it. Better you make the best out situation because turn 10 didn’t overwork the breaks. When you decrease the breakforce to 75 you’ll maybe get a better feeling.
Oversteer or understeer ? When front wheels loose traction in the corner and car goes straight, that’s understeer.
And it is correct. The steering doesn’t ‘lock’ as such, just if the front wheels have no traction, you can turn as much as you like, the car will still go straight, or will turn in ever so slightly at best.
I think it’s only a way to give you a visual indication that you’ve lost steering control at that moment. If the “drivers” actions were normal then for many players they’d have no idea why the car wasn’t responding as expected.
Yes, it all feels ‘fine’ in the non-cockpit views, because you don’t SEE the steering wheel locking up as a result of heavy braking or going into corners faster than usual. Have you also noticed how the wheel auto-corrects itself around turns according to acceleration/deceleration? No I’m not using assists and SIM is on with 0/100 deads
Anyway, I’m not going to repeat the same mantra again. The wheel and gear shift animation must be addressed at some point. I’ve driven a handful of fast and slow cars IRL, and the wheel is never as restrictive as they’ve depicted in Forza.
I think it might be termed ‘innovation’ on T10’s part if they ever give players the freedom to choose between levels of speed sensitive steering or steering rack ratio/speed/sensitivity. That, and remove all the hidden aids on a controller. Those are silly. The only reason I play Forza is because of the realism - the rest are all trash on consoles (minus PCARS - very pleased with its physics).
Maybe I’m failing to understand the problem here mate. If that’s the case I’m very sorry for possibly coming across stupid or Ill informed.
As I said before, turning the wheel more during understeer is a no go, you will not correct your trajectory, you’ll just understeer more. Pressing the brake shouldn’t really have to be done mid corner either as that usually means you’ve came in too hot and pressing the brake would upset balance. Easing back on the throttle would be a better, smoother approach.
I also feel you’re focusing too much on the animation. I’ve played Forza since the beginning and as you’ve stated, this assist has always been there. As I mostly race with normal steering on anything other than a hot lap I’ve had plenty experience with the assist. It does not in any way hinder your lap time.
At most it could be considered as hindering your immersion, but how much immersion you expect from a control I don’t know. All the assist does is let you get to a point of understeer but not so much as to make some lose sight of wheel position. It gives you more than enough movement to correct under/oversteer and definitely enough to take a corner at optimum speed and pull through an apex. In no way does it slow you down, it just prevents you messing up too bad.
Again, maybe I have misunderstood your problem and if so I apologise. If what I’ve said is true though then it sounds more like you maybe have to work on your driving a little. I’m far from a fast driver, you may very well be far faster than me, just remember the less you have to steer and brake, the faster you are. You have a finite amount of grip and this is shared between steering and braking. If you’re using 100% for braking which you are if you’ve locked up then you have zero for steering and vice versa.
It isn’t an animation bug, the steering freezes. You have zero control over steering input for a good 15 degrees or more of stick movement. So imagine a big dead space, you steering locks in position and as you come out the other side it pops 15 degrees or more instantly.
I honestly haven’t had the game long enough to drill down to whether or not this is where the lift oversteer exaggeration is coming from, but letting off the throttle does influence the dead space.
So in other words, imagine the classic instructors mantra, your foot is tied to the wheel with a rope. The more you gas or brake the less you want to steer. Which is 95% well and good advice. But imagine the rule is strictly enforced. Anything that deviates from perfect input or speed puts you in a very dangerous situation.
Driving at the limit will require you constantly toeing the line. Nobody is perfect, not the stig, not shumacher, not Hamilton, and in fact if you watch their hot laps, they constantly push it over the edge and reel it back in. This isn’t possible with a massive dead zone at the edge of front wheel traction. It’s ridiculous, and no other forza game has had this.
It’s either an appeal to a the Need for speed crowd or it’s a bug, no two ways around it.
I personally can handle a dumbing down of physics or traction etc. After all it’s a game, a console one at that, but this is either straight up steering assistance or a bug.
If it is steering assistance, all I can say is it teaches bad habits and slow times, this is not something you actually want to impress on a driver that is going to hit the track. It would kill you or cause you to be uncompetitive at best. Excuse the game if you must, but good God don’t interpret this behavior as realistic. Momentum is always the fastest way around a track. The fastest laps will naturally be very close to that edge and often exceeding it, provided you can correct it. With a dead space you don’t have a chance.
In essence the fastest you can drive in forza is peak race pace, realistic hot Lap pace isn’t possible, because you have to leave that margin on the table or lose controller input. That’s fine as an option, but I have assistance off…
And on top of all this, it isn’t triggered by traction. Again hit the carousel on the ring with a controller, the system cannot properly interpret the added traction of the bank. It easily leaves 10 to 15 mph. on the table as you simply cannot add more throttle than if the turn was flat because even though the traction is there, the steering stops being responsive.
If this is the direction t10 thinks is best, well… fine and all, I’m not going to be a customer, but don’t claim this is true to life, it’s insulting.
The line between hoon, and records is a the slimmest of margins, if you put me in a car where the steering went dead at the edge of traction I’d hang up my helmet.
This controller assist has been in the game since forza 1. It has not changed!
As has previously been said. The controller does not allow you now or ever, to turn past the point of traction of the front wheels.
I think I know what you’re trying say & yes you’re right this is not realistic. However the reason why it’s there is because on a steering wheel this point of lack of traction is felt through the Ffb of the steering wheel. It’s a very fine line between grip & turning past it. This fine line would be near on impossible to find on a controller stick!
Now in real life & on this game. When the front wheels loose traction in a turn your turning angle will decrease from maximum front traction point. Now if you carry on with the throttle at this point yes you will understeer for a bit. Then as the engine revs it’s HP & torque will peak then start to fall. This is normally when the front tires gain grip again & as they’re still pointing too far inwards they catch the grip the cars weight gets thrown forward. The back tires loose grip & weight therefore the car pivots & you spin.
So the fact that it would be near impossible to feel with the controller stick & that if the assist was not there you would be slower & probably a lot more spins. I’m sure if there was an option to remove it then yourself & most others would do so but only for a moment. Then it would be put straight back on!
If it’s always been there it’s never been this pronounced. It’s a huge dead zone now, that’s visually very easy to see.
It’s also the only game that has it, horizons doesn’t even have it, so I find it hard to believe the training wheels are necessary when it’s not even in the casual game associated with t10.
And sorry but your explanation or excuse for why it’s necessary… it would only make sense if the steering and gas were controlled by buttons and not analogue controls. Even then not really because it happens off throttle. I’m not really sure you even understand the issue and why it’s so jarring, but remember your throttle doesn’t cut off when the rear wheels are at the edge of traction and could you imagine the dissatisfaction if that were the case?
At the point that the front wheels gain traction it won’t matter if you’re on or off the throttle you will still probably spin.
It is an explanation, as why would I make excuses for T10? This assist is in all forza’s including horizons!
I do understand the problem. However the throttle does cut when the rear wheels are on the edge of traction if you use traction control! Which is an assist that you are able to turn off. That’s why a lot of people turn it off because of the dissatisfaction over the feeling!
Now this is an assist that you cannot turn off! If you think it’s been enhanced on this game then that’s possible. For me and my feeling on the controller it’s the same!
The only way around your issue is to use a wheel on the game. If you manage to get a steering wheel or even try driving like what you want in RL. Then please make sure there is no one else around & buy insurance!
Ok, I think I am starting to understand what you and the original OP are experiencing. I can’t say that I have experienced this so perhaps it is a bug. The prior descriptions all came across as box standard understeer to me anyway.
Could you possibly post a video to youtube to show what you are describing and include the telemetry that gives steering angle and possibly a corner with the telemetry that shows the tyre’s contact patches and vectors please? This might help clarify what is going on and allow everyone (myself included) grasp the concept of what is going on much better.
The only way around it is to buy a wheel that has not got this assistance from forza. As the man says a no no anyways!