Drivatar difficulty and behavior discussion

Forza Horizon Forza Horizon 5 FH5 Discussion
1144

RE: Graphics over Functions/Features…

This is how console games have always been, and the Forza series is no exception. We know they’re also on PC, but unlike sim racers, their primary audience and platform of choice is the Xbox. That’s what they’re made to run on, and it’s one reason we don’t have more sophisticated AI because they have a budget of limited CPU cycles that go mostly toward rending prettier graphics with Ray Traced lighting effects at 4K.

RE: AI in General…

This is a huge topic on it’s own, but I think one aspect that pertains not only to the Forza series, but all racing games is developers need to ask themselves, What is the purpose of the AI they’ve created for this racing game?

If the main goal is for the AI to be the fastest (“win”) and set world records by any means necessary, then Playground Games and T10 have achieved this, regardless of whether we like it, or not.

The current AI in FH5 goes too fast and breaks the in-game physics to achieve the goal of “winning.” So, in this regard, it’s only doing what it’s programmed to do…

But that’s why huge threads like this exist, unfortunately. Just “winning” is not enough for most of us (humans) who want to play a racing game where the competition is fair, immersive and fun even when we lose. That’s the key difference between Forza AI and other racing game AI. Forza AI’s primary function is to just win even if that means breaking immersion, or fair competition.

To put this into context, I’ve been playing a lot of Assetto Corsa, and other sim racing games lately, and while the AI in many of them is nothing to write home about… At least, it’s fair.

When setting up a race and specifying the opponents use the same car as you do, you can feel confident they aren’t getting unfair advantages and boosts just to make them more “competitive.” In many sims, you can specify how aggressive they are and all this means is whether or not they take corners faster than you and try and maintain the lead within the physical limitations of the game. They’re forced to operate under the same laws of in-game physics you are because that’s how most games are designed… Unlike the recent Horizon and Motorsport, games.

So, even if you handily beat them, it’s still a fair race because humans are just better drivers than AI, and that probably isn’t going to change any time soon. However, this is a lot easier to concede compared to the opposite when the AI are programmed to win by any means necessary and this usually means blatantly cheating and breaking immersion and fair play in order to do it. Once again, the AI achieved its goal, but that alone does not provide a fun and even challenging experience for the human players racing against it.

3 Likes
1145

I hate to say it but I would honestly love to see them focus more on graphics in FH6, specifically with the new UE5. It would be amazing to see what they could come up with given all the new features and enhancements. They could truly blow us away with the realism.

1146

I hope the new tire model in the FM reboot makes it over to FH in some way. Visually improved graphics are fine, but I can have just as much fun with the same graphics and a physics engine that relays information to the driver better.

3 Likes
1147

And infinitely more adjustable (especially if you use content manager). Strength and Aggression are separate sliders and can be adjusted individually.

1 Like
1148

You seem to confuse good Ai with Ai that wins races. Ai simply means Artificial Intelligence so great Ai means more intelligent Ai. Ai that knows all the bends, that knows how to overtake properly, Ai that races each other, and not just you. Ai that uses similar physics to us. Ai that can drift like we do around bends. Ai that hits fences like we do, or has a speed reduction near fences at least, or has an overall speed reduction relating to how many fences are on a course. Ai that actually does copy players, copies your friends. Ai that has a personality as aggressive or passive.

Good Ai does not mean that it wins races.

1 Like
1149

I hope not, great graphics nowadays usually come at the cost of everything else taking a backseat.

People put far too much on it in my opinion, triple-A titles have been looking good since near the end of the 360 era.

When so many other things are being done poorly an improvement on 1 of the few things that’s already great is rather pointless, FH6 looking amazing won’t be much use to any long-term player if the content + general direction of the game is no different.

Games with good quality content hold up better over time than ones with the best possible graphics at their time of release.

8 Likes
1150

While I applaud the effort and invention required to implement a system that pushes the immersion and overall experience to new levels. It’s important to recognize when the system isn’t ready for live deployment and detrimental to user enjoyment.

Personally, I am perfectly fine with the single-player racing experience consisting of an AI being not much more than glorified timed obstructions. If I want to be rammed and cheated on, I’ll head online. :wink:

3 Likes
1151

Colossus
Colossus1920×1080 988 KB

Colossus2
Colossus21920×1080 989 KB

I’ve been testing Colossus Unbeatable, and all they are doing is staying up to 5 seconds ahead of me no matter how fast I go. My second time here is as perfect as you can drive the entire course. Every so often they let you win one.

3 Likes
1152

Tough but beatable. I ran 16.10 in the Exige and caught the lead AI at 90% - they did a 16.14 by the end.

Edit - I didn’t run this clean but it would be a top 200 time if I had for A class Colossus. Lead AI would be circa 220, so is a high standard to beat them in that car.

1 Like
1153

So you knocked nearly 50 seconds off my time, so what tune did you use?

1154

Nalak28 purist tune, with drift tyres.

2 Likes
1155

Must try it!

1156

Meanwhile i did won against unbeatable drivatars in Colossus with Exige S swapped to AWD and a run of 16:32 which is obviously not good, but it was first try and the swap slows down the car. I passed the top ai in 25% but it was almost stuck behind me for the rest of the race.

To be honest i’m still not sure how unbeatable difficulty works and what factors affect the how the ai will perform but i think that most of the times it’s really not that difficult to beat unbeatable drivatars.

1157

This, in a nutshell, is why you don’t play Rivals.

1158

I do play rivals, just not regularly. It’s a bit boring just going round a track. Plus you can’t tell if people are using rewinds to get a better time, the game is not always as it appears. For years someone posted about their times, and finally said that “I only used two rewinds”… which suddenly made me realise that they had been using rewinds all that time.

You also get people saying how the speed zones are easy, and find out that they used rewinds. The game is not an accurate depiction of skill, because of rewinds.

My rewinds have been turned off for 4 years.

1159

Times will not be clean if rewinds are used.

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1160

In rivals.

1161

Which is what you are talking about?

1162

No I’m just talking about the game in general not being easy to tell what people are doing. It’s the same in Open Racing, my crashes are not rewound so I lose more time than most other people.

1163

This just proves you don’t know what you’re talking about. Honestly just stop talking.

2 Likes