Drivatar aggression aka how to understand their inner workings

Forza Horizon Legacy Horizon FH3 Discussion
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I’ve been noticing Drivatars are quite aggressive on higher difficulties, going as far as crashing you out of the road in classes with large cars (such as Extreme Offroad), or when you’re running a featherweight car like the Giulia or the Fiat 124 Spider against big bruisers like the Challenger Hellcat. They also brake test you all the time, even when it costs them time relative to the guy in front of them.

This can be annoying but it’s not much of a concern to me in Horizon series because the game does allow a fair bit of rubbing and paint trading and even encourages it by giving bonuses for that. Furthermore, you can just fight back and in Forza the AI does not seem to be immune to impact (a major plus of the franchise if you ask me).

What I’m concerned about is the behavior of my own Drivatar when it runs against other people.

When I was learning the tracks and the physics I would be often aggressive, not least because they only give you 3 laps to reach the front in standard events (and sprints are quite short as well), so you kinda have to push your way through. Now I don’t require such strategies as much but obviously the earlier behavior stays recorded in my Drivatar persona.

I don’t really want the reputation of a wrecker, in fact one of the reasons I avoid online in racing games is that I don’t have the best judgment when it comes to avoiding contact, but if my Drivatar is running around pushing other people off the track then this is something I can’t run away from!

I would like some clarification on how the Drivatars work, would be really cool to see how exactly they depict your driving style and how much of standard AI there is in them compared to the customized Drivatar code. :slight_smile:

I also want to know how much difference there is between the difficulty levels. I’m running one step below Unbeatable and plan to eventually move upwards because more credits = more cars = more fun. :smiley:

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I’m pretty sure everyone’s drivatar is just an overaggressive mess at this point. The whole system might as well be scrapped or done over. Nobody believes another drivatar is reflecting that user’s driving.

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The “system” does work the way it is designed. There’s a pretty good explanation of the inner workings here: https://forums.forza.net/turn10_postsm741875_Everyone-is-driving-legally.aspx#post_741875

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I have just posted a detailed post in the above quoted thread in which I explained why I think the NAMES of the Drivatars are randomly assigned to the actual drivatars in any given race on Goliath in particular, based on a good number of races (probably close to 100) at Goliath.

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I have friends who say the opposite.

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And that’s a fair explanation of what it might or might not be back in Forza 5. But now we’ve had one…two…three…four Forza titles with Drivatars and it hasn’t felt like the drivers have evolved any kind of personality or individuality in those years. It’s definitely about time they took the stage and updated us on Drivatars from a 2017 perspective, rather than a 2013 one. Is it working? Is it evolving? I’m not convinced.

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I’m concerned about aggressive drivatars because of Skill challenges in Blizzard Mountian and Hot Wheels. I’ve lost many, many long skill chains due to a drivatar hitting me from behind or the side.

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It is the same system, evolved, and including even current FH3 drivers, too, in the Drivatar data base. But since you’re not so convinced send Turn 10 an email with all your list of things that are wrong with the Drivatars and ask them to fix it - according to you.

Continuing to argue without knowing the inner workings and ignoring facts is fruitless.

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Whoa, cowboy. Why so offended and condescending? Mommy, or Daddy working on the Drivatars at T10?

The fact of the matter is… Drivatars are in fact broken. Not just in FH3, but since FH2, and including FM6.

T10 even had to issue a fix (patch) in FM6 because of how broken they were.

Also, the real issue with Drivatars isn’t what they should be doing, it’s what they are doing (and shouldn’t be able to), right now.

Drivatars have 20% reduction in penalties (grip, weight, downforce, etc.) that apply to player cars. This is why they can do impossible things in the higher classes (S1, S2, X) like take sharp turns without breaking at 150MPH when even someone like Mario Andretti would have to slow down if driving in Forza.

The more pressing issue, however, is the AI (Drivatars) are more or less scripted and many of the outcomes to races are predetermined regardless, of tuning and / or actual driver skill.

This is no secret.

This has been documented in thread after thread since FH3 was even in open Beta, and persists to this day.

On higher difficulties, there will always be one, or two cars on your tail if you manage to break away from the pack. Always. Without fail. The game will sometimes spawn the cars out of nowhere (behind you), or have them cut across track sections to make sure this happens.

Why?

The developers at T10 want to create “tension and excitement” at the cost of a semi-real driving experience. It’s tired, lazy rubber banding AI taken to the extreme.

In other racing games, if a human can drive faster and better than the AI, they should be able to beat them fairly. However, T10 makes sure this is not possible on higher difficulties. It’s always a close race due to the penalty reductions and other cheats the Drivatars use (speed boots on straights, no penalties for missing checkpoints, etc). This is why a lot of races are “predetermined” even when a player wins. The scenario of the race itself will always be the same with no variation that is present in real racing (and other racing games).

T10 also acknowledged this in not-so-many-words when asked recently if players will be able to flat out beat the AI with no more rubber banding in FM7.

So, at the present time, I would take the Drivatar label as pure marketing speak because the in-game AI behavior does not resemble real life driving at all given how many things are at work to deliver the kind of scripted (predetermined) T10 wants younger (teens) racers to experience… Compared to older, more experienced racers (who drive in real life) and who want variation & randomness real race experiences provide.

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Thanks for confirming my suspicions… I did notice that and immediately thought of rubberbanding.

I guess the only fix is to play on a lower difficulty then, which is probably not a bad thing to do when the big money in the game is not in the exhibitions or even the tournaments. Easier to make money in the wheelspins than when racing! :smiley:

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This is EXACTLY what I am seeing as well. The races are predetermined with the names of the Drivatars changed from one race to another. How else can it be explained that my friend, Joe, is so good he is on my tail the entire 6 laps of Goliath, never making a mistake, yet in the next Goliath race Joe is so terrible he has a hard time keeping his car on the road and I am passing him by lap 4/5, while Fred is now the nearly unbeatable driver who, just the race before was the terrible driver I had lapped?

I also think that it is part of all this kumbaya personalization they are going for. It is a lot more personal to race my friend, Joe, than to race MRossi, or whoever.

I know what I have seen. I have seen it time and time again on the long races, given the number of times I have raced these routes. It is not conjecture.

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In Goliath it’s quite easy to notice it because the Drivatars can magically take some corners at much higher speeds than you do, while they’re absolutely terrible at others.

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If you’re having so many problems with the Drivatar system, either report your issues here: https://forums.forza.net/turn10_topics100_Support.aspx

OR send Turn 10 detailed emails at forzafb@microsoft.com.

Arguing about things like this is fruitless in regular threads. Take it to where it is brought to the attention of the responsible parties.

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I believe the reason it’s designed this way is to give (younger) players more of a challenge because younger gamers have more time to play than older gamers?

They have the time to rewind a race 50+ times just because the AI can pit the player’s car with no penalty to their (AI) own momentum.

They don’t mind racing a track 10 times just to finally beat the cheating, rubber band AI when most gamers should be able to beat it in one session if the game was designed to be truly fair.

Some just are not aware the AI is cheating and think they need to “get gud” which takes time… and luck… Which further prolongs their playtime.

Those who are aware the AI is cheating are the same ones who like games like Dark Souls, and others where blatant, artificial difficulty is expected and beating it is a “badge of honor”… Because they have the free time to put into beating the unfair AI. There are players who love a challenge (Pro, Unbeatable) and that’s fine.

The problem is the majority of players (all ages) are casual and want a fair racing experience, not a predetermined, or rigged one.

T10 will never admit the Drivatars are broken because they have been a major bullet point for the Forza series over the last five years. Microsoft and T10 can’t afford to admit one of the main features they sold the game on doesn’t work, or… It works, but not the way a lot of people were lead to believe (no rubberbanding; no predetermined in-race scenarios; etc). This could negatively effect sales of future games which in turn effects investor & shareholder confidence which is what it’s all about at this level: Money, not the actual quality of games that make the money.

As a consumer, I am going to be watching FM7 very closely.

I am going to come to this and many other forums in the sim/arcade racing world to see if the Drivatars a.k.a. AI, have in fact been changed for the next installment.

If they have, I will buy it because I love the series.

However, if it’s the same, pre-scripted, cheating nonsense as in FH2, FH3, and FM6, then I will move on to other racing games because I want a fair playing field even against AI. I want to be challenged, but not in the artificial and flawed ways T10 has done it in the past.

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I ain’t young, I don’t rewind, I only had to replay a couple of races early on in FH3 before I worked out how to build cars (FH3 style).

But having said that below is a video on a speed track of me demolishing unbeatable without a speed build.

Now having recently raced online due to Forzathon I can say people do not tune their cars well for launch … or use assists which destroy launch … or are just very poor.

Against AI and online I seem to get to turn 1 in the lead most of the time. This is not skill ie just taking off in a straight line or maybe it is. This is why I find this so baffling - why am I getting to turn 1 in the lead most of the time?

I have spoken to friends who do not post on these forums. Helped them understand FH3 and its broken PI system and what works. Build for power and tune for turn. A couple of friends now find this game easy as a result. Most people still do not understand how broken the PI system is. Sure you may want to use your balanced builds or grip builds but they do not work in this game.

Switch to a power build that turns and understand that what the drivatars do is possible.

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20% reduction in penalties lol

What a load of tosh.