Car XP Upgrade System & Private Multiplayer

Hello everyone, feel this deserves a topic.

Following the August Forza Monthly a lot of information about Multiplayer in Forza Motorsport was revealed.

One of the unknowns from before August is now known, and it’s regarding the use of the Car XP Upgrade System in Private (ie: Custom) Multiplayer Lobbies.

For context, here’s the text from the website:

UPGRADED CARS IN MULTIPLAYER

We want players to feel more of a sense of pride of ownership or accomplishment in Forza Motorsport when they show up for a race with a specific car. So that’s why we have our car upgrade system built into the entire game – you earn progression on your car when you play Builders Cup, Free Play, Rivals, and multiplayer. We also think this introduces an element that is like how real-life racing works – you spend time in research and development making your car better for the upcoming race.

We want you to have fun with this system, empower your fellow community members, and engage their creativity. For example, if your team is preparing for an upcoming league race organized by a community group, you can host a Private Meetup where everyone tries out specific cars and builds them together.

To assist with this, we’ve reduced the credit cost of acquiring cars – the most expensive car now is now in the hundreds of thousands instead of millions of credits as it was in Forza Motorsport 7.

We know this is a big change from how Forza Motorsport has been in the past, but we think it will bring more elements of real-world racing into the game experience overall and make it more impressive and noteworthy when someone shows up to a non-spec multiplayer race with a fully upgraded car.

From previous Forza Monthly shows, it is known that it’ll take roughly 2-3 hours to unlock all parts for a car, and this unlock time is on a per-car basis.

What do you think about this? Yay/nay?

Do you like the idea of the Car XP Upgrade System being used in Private Multiplayer?
  • Yes
  • No
0 voters
4 Likes

Dropping my opinions in a second post so that I don’t bias the OP.

The car XP system being tied to (private/custom) multiplayer severely limits player/community freedom. Even if cars are cheaper to buy with CR, you still need to level up each individual car in order to unlock upgrade parts.

In previous titles, you could buy any upgrades you want, which then allowed you to try out dozens of configurations in order to find the best builds, and you could begin this process from the second you buy a car.

Now, because upgrades are unlocked through a per-car levelling system, you first have to effectively grind XP on a car before you can buy various parts, and then begin the experimentation process.

This is fine for single player as well as curated Featured Multiplayer, but when you’re preparing for community leagues or running casual sessions with your friends, an evening session where you may try out 10 different cars (not uncommon, my club does it every week) now takes 20+ hours to unlock everything if you’re primarily using cars you’re driving for the first time.

If you’re making events that mirror Builders Cup or Featured Multiplayer classes, that reduces the barrier to entry (and I expect the curated groups to be well-balanced with no obvious meta, or else they’re not worth racing in).

However, there are many communities out there who will either come up with something beyond the scope of the curated races (for example, cars that are in different in-game groups but did race against one another in real life, or something like Muscle v Micro) or will host several events in a single evening. Additionally, whenever Turn 10 has poorly balanced cars in a class in the past (PI system has historically been open to metagaming), communities have built their own performance balancing build lists to even out the meta.

Also, Forza Motorsport’s own Private Multiplayer settings have filters that inherently break the scope of car builds, by limiting power/weight/year/country.

In the past it was dead easy: buy car, download community-made tune (and paint if you want), go race. Now it’s buy car, spend 2 hours unlocking all the parts if it’s a new car, download community-made tune, hope the session is still up and the host is still doing that kind of race.

Long-term, once peoples’ garages have matured to the point they have hundreds of fully upgraded cars it won’t be an issue, but for the first 6 months to a year it’s absolutely going to be a pain point for ad-hoc community racing, the kind that thrives in Forza Horizon 5.

It’s also going to be a pain-point for any new players who jump into “their favourite YouTuber’s” community nights and doesn’t have many cars to begin with, or the kinds of players who only have 1-2 hours a week of spare time and want to spend that in custom sessions with their friends.

I’m on board with almost everything else Forza Motorsport is aiming to do (because it’s taking all the good bits from GT Sport , something I’ve been asking them to do since 2017), but this lack of a separate sandbox area is a design decision I strongly disagree with.

Outside of multiplayer, it also messes with Time Attack and Rivals, where again it’s not uncommon for people to buy, build and hotlap 10-15 different cars an hour in order to find the fastest one.

Why not just use the preset themes and Spec Racing?

In this scenario, let’s say one of those specified classes in a Private Lobby has 5 cars. You want to find the one that’s fastest or best suits the way you drive. The event you’re doing requires fully upgraded cars (because upgrading cars allows more player freedom and meta variety).

To test those 5 cars, you initially need to play for 10 hours to explore them all. It’s a big upfront time investment that only gets diminished if your community decides to repeatedly do that event series.

If they want to swap to a different type of car, you have to repeat the process. If you’ve done all of that in Builders’ Cup or Featured Multiplayer, then great, but there’s always going to be some people who are playing a car class/type for the first time or are only partly through their journey.

Historically the most popular kinds of races in Forza (both Motorsport and Horizon) have been open-class events, as the lists of eligible cars for each are in the hundreds.

Spec racing has its place and if Turn 10 balance each class well it’ll be a lot of fun, but a core appeal of the series has been to buy a bunch of cars, upgrade and customise them they way you like, and see how they do against your friends. It’s not uncommon for people to take a car 2 PI classes above stock and have what is essentially a production-based race car of their own making.

Locking the entire game to the Car XP progression system gets in the way of that, and it would have been nice to have at least one small part of the game where said system is not needed, and people can freely build/race with no restrictions.

I have no concerns with Turn 10 wanting to implement an effort-based progression system into the game (it’s overall a good thing), but to not have a single way to bypass said progression in a casual “I only have 30 minutes and want to whip up a car build for funsies” manner is going to be disappointing for some.

Related, there’s a suggestion thread on this for anyone incase anyone wants the throw a vote in: [Multiplayer] No upgrade parts locked behind XP. Every part should be unlocked instantly!

11 Likes

I wanna be able to buy build and tune cars the way i did in forza 7…i have 600 million credits and the freedom to do what I want…this system takes that alway. I dont have unlimited hrs per day to play …people haves other lives and family too…so this is really going to be a bummer.

5 Likes

Perfect example of when a developer doesn’t play their own game. After watching the last video im pretty shocked how restrictive this new game is turning out to be. Forza literally became popular because of its non-restrictive gameplay.
Forza 7 saw major backlash due to homolagation restrictions and forced them to redevelop the entire rivals system and they thought it was a good idea to go back down this path even more aggressively than before.
It sounds like they want people to stick to whatever cars or classes they decide should be used that week, imo this is a horrible mentality to have. Theyre going full live service model, which has made horizon worse imo and i cant see motorsport gaining any advantage from it.

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5 years ago, EA posted the most downvoted Reddit comment in history with their infamous line justifying a bad de$ign decision:
“The intent is to provide players with a sense of pride and accomplishment…”

…So I find it concerning now when Turn 10 says:
“We want players to feel more of a sense of pride of ownership or accomplishment…”

It seems terribly out-of-touch.
Was that statement generated by a poorly-trained chatbot, or a snarky intern?
Is that trolling?
Is that a sign of bad things to come?

I cannot imagine any benefit or fun from placing hours-long barriers between players & upgrading their cars in a game with hundreds of cars.

That sounds absolutely grind-tacular, like the game would be an intolerable slog, turning the excitement of acquiring new cars into dread of the impending drudgery from starting the grind all over again (& again, & again…).

It sounds like it would delay & prevent lots of players from participating in many limited-time events.

The concept also sounds like it would be terrible for multiplayer balance: if someone is a good racer but they have less time to play, they won’t be able to compete (outside of fixed-spec races) with worse drivers who can spend much more time slogging through the grind to upgrade their cars for better performance - which doesn’t sound skill-based, but rather like grind-to-win.

It sounds like such a monumentally awful idea that it could easily be mistaken for an attempt to intentionally sabotage the franchise - or like an underhanded way to introduce some pay-to-win add-on for skipping the artificially-created inconvenience (“because it’s all about giving/selling players options”).

After all these years of community feedback, feature requests, player data collected, & moves made by competing titles, I cannot even begin to fathom how anyone at the studio could have possibly believed this might be a good idea.

I can already envision the flood of rage-filled forum posts, refund requests, & highly unfavorable exposure on social media after people purchase the game without realizing this extra grind-fest was baked in.

I was optimistic until they announced this.
Removing this before launch, or quickly releasing some very convincing videos demonstrating the benefits of this approach should be a very high priority for the studio right now because this truly sounds like a total game-killer to me.

I sincerely hope to be proven wrong about this.

4 Likes

Seems like they’re going to be hated on no matter what they do.

People whined incessantly that there was no sense of pride or progression in previous games as they eventually had more credits than they knew what to do with, could instantly buy cars fully upgraded and had a huge garage of cars they never drove.

So now they answer those criticisms with a system that requires you to drive the car stock, upgrade and tune it and become attached to cars you really enjoy, and now it’s all too grindy apparently.

People jumping on here apparently convinced they’ve got the measure of the community and can speak for it, unable to understand how the studio could make design choices they personally can’t fathom.

There’s plenty of players who like the idea, or at least intrigued enough to try it before condemning it even though they’re yet to see it.

2 Likes

I made no claim to speak for anyone other than myself.
The opinions I express are solely my own.

I don’t need to eat a moldy sandwich to know beforehand that it sounds quite unappetizing to me.

1 Like

I agree with most of what you’re saying, I feel similar (maybe to a less degree) about this system.

But this point is you’re making is not correct:

Because in the limited time multiplayer events there will be Spec racing:

Spec racing is fully homologated to ensure an even playing field. That means all the cars racing are identical and have been tuned by us to provide the fairest and most competitive experience possible.
You can still earn CarXP from Spec Series events to level up your car later, however for these events you will not be at a disadvantage if your car is Level 1 and an opponent car is at Level 50 – if you’re playing in the Spec series, they will be set to a pre-defined build and tune to keep a completely even challenge.

So you should always be able to join these events.

I would like to see some more on this too.

I do like the system in career/single player, but in multiplayer, especially private lobbies with friends I don’t like it.

2 Likes

I was referring to many types of potential limited-time events in general, like: temporary/rotating playlists/hoppers, or community-run events that take place on certain dates, or contests with deadlines, or ad-hoc lobbies with your buddies/club, etc.

I still agree with this, but…

For some of these there will still be Spec racing and most of the times community-run events are announced beforehand, so you’ll have time to prepare the car(s) you want to use beforehand (if you have the time). There are ways around this problem.

Yeah - longer, more grindy ways… which is exactly the point.

It appears now that they have implemented the system 67% of people weren’t interested in this system at all. So it appears it was a small subset of the community that screamed the loudest for a change most players didn’t want.

Including me, i hate this new system.

You’re replying to a post I made a month ago before we saw the demos and detail of what the upgrade mechanism is, noting I’ve shared concerns about the mechanism since?

Car XP upgrade system = good

Arbitrary part locking = bad

Don’t really have anything else to say on the subject till I get hands on and try it personally. All the endless speculation and supposition going on here I’m starting to find pretty nauseating.

4 Likes

Something changed recently after videos showing that the XP gain are not a reflection of player’s skill development. It is set in a way that requires meaningless extra grinding no matter how good you are.

The second thing is the order in which upgrades are unlocked.

As you may recall that the BuildersCup is what I pre-ordered the game for. I still like the progression idea in principle, but way in which its implemented is not as good as sounded since mid June.

1 Like

The only thing that’s changed since the June Monthly reveal of the Builder’s Cup is we saw actual previews and the whole upgrade process in detail, noting how all parts unlock in the same linear fashion for every car and the way they are locked is arbitrary. I agreed with Hoki’s perspective that this detracts from the progression/build/bond ethos the developer is targeting as it removes the freedom for players to upgrade/tune as per their personal feel.

But the whole upgrade process only lasts a couple hours which isn’t a big deal for me. I always drive my favourite cars and spend that kind of time with them, and it’s still a vast improvement over the prior iterations where you just buy fully upgraded and homologated cars and forget the whole thing.

And that’s really as far as my concerns go. Everything else in the game I consider is getting solid improvements and is a good iteration on the prior games (excepting old model cars, but I honestly don’t care much).

As for your forecasts and other comments, I think they’re seriously flawed. You speak way too definitively on matters you have little to no basis on and I see no point debating things which are so subjective and hypothetical and aren’t capable of being resolved.

“they’ve brought in a system that’s overcomplicated for no truly rational reason”

The all knowing Banjacked knows what their rationale was and can dismiss it as having no grounding at all.

“because they took the word of a small minority and worked from there”

“Small minority” is based on???

“Had they proposed this concept earlier and asked for opinions they would not only have been told “Nay, Nay, and thrice Nay” but would have had alternatives proposed which would have nullified the negativity.”

I doubt it. I bet they would have had overwhelming noise as everyone put their 2c in

“so the state of affairs by the time the drop the Nordschleife in could be the tipping point for the future”

Funny. Cyberpunk launched as a total disaster. A year later I’d call it a masterpiece and now they’re pre-selling expansions.

ACC has been an absolute rollercoaster. Launching poorly. Running terribly and every time they touch the game to “upgrade” it, they actually introduce game breaking bugs that make the game actually unplayable until they patch it again. Yet 3yrs on my league has its largest membership and the game is in the best state it’s ever been.

There are many shortfalls in analysis and I think you showcase many of them. In general people think they are fair-minded, rational and correct and thus that they have the measure of an issue and speak from the perspective of the majority or at least, the “correct” side.

This forum is littered with your lengthy responses to people where you labour your points of view endlessly until people give up, because you absolutely won’t stop until you have the last word on something as if it proves your perspective “right”, debating every possible line of inquiry down to petty minutia.

I didn’t respond to all your points because to be honest, I don’t read them anymore as I don’t want to engage you in yet another of these ridiculous threads you have.

We don’t have access to the information T10 and Microsoft does. We don’t have the technical knowledge of the issues encountered in designing and developing the game. All that can do is speculation and hypothesise on the basis of very little fact and a whole lot of personal perspective, but there’s nothing that can actually be proven or resolved here so I don’t see the point in engaging this stuff, especially these myopic forecasts the misery camp keeps producing.

I’m here because I’m looking forward to the game and engaging with other people who are also. I tried to positively and constructively engage with the sceptical members here but like myself, everyone knows where they stand and the “debate” really doesn’t resolve anything, hence I’ve not been engaging in that stuff much lately.

The game is out in less than 2 weeks so it really is pointless now. I’m just getting psyched to finally get to play and enjoy the game!

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Blah blah blah. Sorry mate, not reading anymore of this stuff.

Maybe I’ll see you on on track on the 10th? Maybe when they release the Nordschleife? Or whenever else you stop talking, buy the game and start racing.

I’ll be happy to see you on track and race with you. In fact, I hope so.

Cheers

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