Anybody ever build up a car to replicate past cars?

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I would think that you could go up a notch with tires than just stock. Like maybe one upgrade??? I thought that the stock tires on the cars replicated stock tires of that car. And since it’s older… And when they raced they definitely up graded their tires.

So you’re saying the older cars broke more when you had a spec race? Because you can’t upgrade to todays levels? And yeah, that’s more like it was in the real days. But can you pit in this game and replace things in a longer race?

I notice that on some cars when I race the shifter comes up as having damage. I don’t really understand that. Is it just the shifter or is it the tranny too? Because the tranny doesn’t light up, just the shifter. Weird. On the newer race cars I feel like I’m beating the heck out of my shifts by trying to shift faster and all that and they don’t show any wear at all.

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Also, where did you get the specs on the cars and do you still have them?

I was looking up some info about the 1987 Sierra Cosworth the other day and I was surprised to see that one race version had 300 HP. I was like, wow.

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@ Retro Nice list you have there if you have them on your sf I’d like to check some of them out.

@ Avanti you have 5 star paints they look great I’m just about done with the #23 Camaro (Duane Winkel) I should have been done along time ago but I’m easily distracted.
I’m going to start a thread and post mine soon.

@ GroovierWolf Nice thread you started here

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Thank you.

So, Avanti, are you still running those races? Or should we get some more started? I have no clue how to do that. And I’m still trying to wrap my head around the specs. I wish I knew the specs on the real cars, how they were built up and what was required. For example, I’m assuming a full roll cage was required, right? Maybe that’s why Juggernaut left the tires stock because by the time you do a roll cage and if you did the race weight savings you’re throwing on a lot of points. Eh? And maybe upgrade the tranny to street so you can adjust the final drive???

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I will try put them up a lot of them haven’t really been tuned to brilliantly but will go grab a few, some cars I took liberties on for example the cars could have the suspensions adjusted even though they where leaf so have run race springs which Le mans they are now on coils which in period they weren’t but they are fun.

As for Sierras up until the point most championships banned or stopped Group A touring cars Eggenbergers cars where easily hitting 500bhp in qualifying setup by race day they turned it down to reduce wear. most information comes from touringcaracing.net, Ultimate car page and from being a regular goer to historic racing in the UK. Have spoke to many guys about there cars and preparation, sadly a lot of it is difficult to do in this game as as soon as you change a part it’s all ready a brand new design, as opposed to parts designed to work and look like period but with subtle improvements. Oh and reading way too many books.

with some stuff though be careful for example I have seen silly HP of 570 quoted for a pantera the best evidence I have found would suggest around 480 but even that is estimated. Some cars weights are also difficult to reach to, had many issues with E-types and Alfa GTA’s from memories. What makes it more difficult is privately built and developed cars like Kremer Porsches, Schnitzer CSL’s, Greenwood Corvettes, NARTs various Ferrari projects info is very sketchy. Generally sticking I go off the facts and what it realistic for example decided 580ish hp for the 7.0L camaros and Corvetes made sense but the 650 some people quoted seemed a little far fetched.

for Porsches check pbase.com theres one for 934’s, one for 911RSRs and one for 914GTs. chassis specs and all sorts.

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Well that’s just it. You know what they say history is, “His Story”. Plus I was reading something the other day that around this time, I think, at least in our country, I think, they changed the way they rated horsepower. Somewhere, at some point. I forget what the explanation was. Whether it was because they started rating it at the wheels in comparison to somewhere else, I know not. Maybe you can shed some light on that. Or someone else can. I think I was reading it on wiki when looking up Corvettes. And of course we all know that wiki is flawless. But whatever. It’s at least a guide and I think I remember reading it somewhere else at some point in my life. But I don’t have a handle on all that to any degree to speak with authority. I guess my main point is that there is always going to be a degree of speculation on the specs. LOL. Clear as mud.

I also remember reading at some point or another that really, even though there were specs, some teams or maybe all, had a degree of things they would do that they would try to get away with, without getting caught, to gain an edge. Here again, it’s some kind of distant memory of something I read but it kind of soured me on the whole deal about racing. Personally, I can’t stand that way of thinking. I try to teach my kids that you’re not really winning if you’re having to cheat, lie, steal, do some back door deal, under the radar, etc etc. First off, God knows. Secondly, you’re taking the blessing away from the person who is capable of winning fair and square. We can’t all win everything. For me it’s far more important to be a good sport and do your best and leave the rest up to God. Out of my hands. Do your best and caulk the rest. But don’t cheat. That’s just dumb. And even if you don’t believe in God, it’s still just selfishness that drives that kind of attitude which is good for nobody. Not even the person doing the manipulating. Because even if one wins like that, they know deep in their heart they didn’t really win. I suppose some might not have a conflicted conscious, but those people scare me.

Anyways… I think for the game sake the Class ratings are good enough but you could probably take it a little further either requiring things like roll cages to meet a more realistic spec and not new parts like someone mentioned. Don’t go crazy with tires and maybe newer rims out, I don’t know. What do you guys think?

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For Deeps,
Thank you. A lot of those paints are from maxximillion though I helped him in a few areas, worked on a collaboration with him, and have a few of my own (not posted anywhere).

For Groovier,
Real Trans-Am cars came about because SCCA imposed an upper limit of 5L. Initially they had a weight limit of 2800 pounds though that changed to 3200 pounds as a way to keep teams from acid dipping their cars. Other than that the race cars didn’t differ too much from factory produced pony cars, except in the drivetrain areas obviously. Race teams were pulling 440 horsepower and 380 foot-pounds of torque out of naturally aspirated 5L engines, some of them spinning beyond 8,000 RPM.

I have one season I still must wrap-up (my Live subscription expired before we finished) though another could be started in the not-too-distant future.
In terms of how I build my cars in Forza, when it comes to hosting a race season I don’t follow Turn 10’s Performance Index numbers; I’ve shifted to a combination of weight to power ratio and similar upgrade parts. My thinking is, if every car is equipped with the same components, it’s not the components making the difference.

Taking my Trans-Am league for example, I have 17 cars spread from A532 to A569 and they’re competitive with each other. They used to be spread A521 to A580 though the bottom 3 and the top 3 needed to be drawn into the middle. I started by gutting every car and installing a roll cage. Presto! Instant race car. I then gave every car the exact same components: sport brakes, sport suspension, sport anti-roll bars, race carburetor, and race exhaust. I applied the same aftermarket wheel type and diameter to all cars and set a maximum tire width. Then I calculated where the car with the lowest weight:power ratio was and built the rest of the cars to meet it.

After the cars are built I test them. There are cars which are just really good everywhere. One easy fix for them is to drop the exhaust from race to sport because that adds weight and reduces power. If the car handles exceptionally well I can reduce tire width or make (a) step(s) down in anti-roll bars. When drivers select their cars and test in the preseason, I get a feeling how to further balance the builds. I’ve also used power reductions via the room controls. Since those controls only subtract power in 5% increments, I have sometimes added a little bit of power before putting someone in a bucket so the net result falls between the set increments.

Groovier, we need more people like you. Not everyone can win everything, it should be about spending time enjoying something with people who also enjoy the same thing, than where we place at the end of the day. I could win a race or I could DNF and I’d still enjoy the time spent with like-minded people.

The change between SAE gross and SAE net horsepower occurred in 1971.
SAE gross is flywheel power measured without engine-driven accessories (air conditioning, alternator, power steering, etc.) attached, breathing through an open exhaust system.
SAE net is flywheel power measured with engine-driven accessories attached, breathing through an “as sold” exhaust system.

In addition to that, insurance companies were cracking down on kids who could buy 400+ horsepower behemoths and were charging more. Well, the auto companies decided to fight back. Suppose a 1969 Road Runner made 460 horsepower and the same Road Runner a year later made 425 horsepower. What gives? Sometimes it’s just on paper wink wink nudge nudge. We know power ratings are paired with an RPM. How do you down rate an engine?

  1. Quote power made at a lesser RPM. If the 1969 Road Runner made its 460 horsepower at 5700 RPM chances are great the 1970 Road Runner also made 460 horsepower at 5700 RPM and 425 horsepower at 5400 RPM. Advertise the 5400 RPM figure.
  2. Don’t tell the whole truth and print 425 horsepower at peak RPM. They’re not exactly lying because the engine does produce 425 horsepower at peak RPM … it also happens to produce more.

This site tells more: Understanding Gross Versus Net Horsepower Ratings > Ate Up With Motor

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Thank you for the compliment. The subject comes up a lot because whenever my kids play with other kids, it’s an issue. My kids seem to be pretty good at this but I see a lot of kids so self centered about playing games. My sister’s kids are this way. Well I should say her youngest. He’s just a PITA and they know it. He just has that personality that he wants what he wants, when he wants, how he wants and if he doesn’t get it he throws a fit. And when my kids have tried to play a game with him he cheats, makes up his own rules as they go, etc etc. I probably sound like I’m saying my kids are perfect, which they aren’t. But they don’t usually have a big problem with this issue because of me hammering it home. My son doesn’t like to lose either, but hopefully he loses gracefully as I taught him. I haven’t heard any reports otherwise. Anyways… I just tell my kids not to play games with him because it’s just not going to work.

Which is the shame of it all. If people can’t play right, or at least to a degree, there’s no point in playing. Then it’s just chaos. And the world has enough chaos going on in it that we don’t need to act like it either.

Anyways… I’m going on and on about it.

If you’re still running this series, I would love to join. I think I’m ready to play on line now. I think. And I really like your philosophy about the race. I think it’s a good idea to level the playing field as much as possible. I will say this though: Isn’t it possible that even in real life some of the cars might have handled better than the other, for whatever reason unknown??? Meaning is it fair to try to completely level the playing field??? I suppose it is because then the race becomes about who drives the best race instead of their equipment. But I do think that certain cars do have that certain something where others don’t.

My only little example of this is in the late 90’s before they got rid of the Camaro, I test drove one. I think it was an SS. I think it had the 5.7. And it just felt like I was driving a whale. It also seemed like the gears were so tall you got a lot of noise and it went nowhere. Not from burning rubber but just wound out and at low speeds. And it felt like I was trying to wrestle a sumo wrestler or something.

And then I drove a Cobra and it was like a night and day experience. I personally thought the thing drove easy, was very quick and was just a complete joy. In my opinion waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than the Camaro. And dare I say seemed to perform a whole lot better too. At least at the lower speeds. It might have been a different story if I was going around an oval, but going around corners and such, the Mustang just seemed to do a lot better.

Anyways… Just my thoughts on that but how do I participate in your league if you’re still running it?

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The differences between cars in Forza can be glaring at times, even when the cars shouldn’t be so different and some of the guys I race with came up with a theory. In regard to the 1970 Challenger and the 1971 'Cuda (because they’re both Mopar “E” bodies), it’s as if Turn 10 rendered a Challenger R/T someone bought to “cruise” and a Hemi 'Cuda with more performance-oriented parts installed. Until Turn 10 models different trim packages for each platform, the end users are at the whim of which car Turn 10 selects.

There are two Forza cars eligible for T/A which succumbed to coding catastrophes.
1969 Camaro SS was not coded to accept 15" wheels. The aftermarket sizes start at factory (14") and the first upgrade size is 16". It’s not the end of the world though I limited my builds to 15" wheels so this car gets stuck with fourteens.
1968 Shelby GT-500KR is prone to roll over, and here’s why. The engine z-axis height is equal to the roof line. Somebody typed the correct number in the wrong location or the wrong number in the correct location. People digging into Forza’s data file have found this error.

How do you join? You’re in. That was easy :smiley:

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that’s an interesting little bit of info, thanks!

A weekly(?) spec car series, not too unlike your own, that you might be interested it- not my series, and I hope you don’t mind me mentioning it, but I participated a week or so ago with these guys - Deadlight’s Nationwide Series - and had a good time! They run stock restricted NASCAR cars beforehand and then modern 'Mustangs, Camaros, and Challengers - each with well balanced setups by onelapmagic.

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Dang, I thought about getting that Shelby.

Oh, before I forget, thank you for the explanation on HP.

OK, I’m in??? I gotta get xbox live going.

My first car I want to race is a 70 Camaro. I have built it up somewhat but of course I need to build it to the right specs. Where do I find those for that car? Or is that how it works? I can use my own car, right? I started doing some silly paint stuff on it too. It’s my first real attempt at a race car with paints. Well, the first time I knew how to use the layer groups to make some decals.

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Avanti, I built my 70’s Camaro up to your specs. It’s a monster. I got to add some HP to it to get it to the 7/1 ratio. It’s louder, faster, and yowza. Does sound very unstock, maybe reminiscent of the real T/A cars. LOL. Yeeeeeehaw. Truth be told I’m not really a v-8 power junkie as I do like a good 4 or 6. But IMHO, cars were at their pinnacle by 1972 and then went pffffffffffffffftttttt. I don’t think it really started to recover in the states until much later. Anyways… I’m going on about nothing. I think I might try to set up my xbox live today.

But that brings me to another question, are you allowing the smaller displacement cars, like the Alfa GTV or the Cortina? And if so I’m assuming you’d use all the same criteria, but maybe not. Also if you are allowing those, are there any others that qualify? The Dino?

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I have some U2 chassis built and your presumption is correct, the components are exactly the same as in my O2 class. I built U2 cars to 10 pounds per 1 horsepower and in order to include the BMW 2002 they all have a turbocharger. Since I can’t remove the turbo from the BMW I leveled the field that way. Having said that, I decided not to include them in season one. Upon starting a second season I will include the U2 cars.
Those would be:
1965 Alfa Romeo Giulia
1966 Lotus Cortina
1966 MG MGB GT
1970 Datsun 510
1973 BMW 2002
It is possible to build other cars to meet the class though they have to be a 2+2 design (2 door, 4 seat).

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OK, so when is the second season? I’m not sure where you are in all your races. And are you doing 10/1 with just cars with turbo’s or all of the U2’s? I’d like to build my Alfa up and see how I like it. I sure like the specs and the way my Camaro has turned out. But truth be told I did a couple of different builds on that one and I feel like it’s one of those cars that just does well in a lot of different configs. At least when I drive it. For me.

I will be getting set up on live Gold soon and how do I know what your schedule are for the races? Also, my profile name in the game is different than my name here. It is: abinmyveins

Do I need to register on that site you have for the Trans Am racing to get your schedule and all that? I’m really interested in racing with more T/A cars. :slight_smile:

Also, why not two seaters? And wouldn’t the 71 Skyline fit in?

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I’m trying to get my online working now, but it’s not working. I’m using a free month they gave when we bought the xbox 360 and it appears that they might be having a problem with these. The last time I had a problem I found a place to call, but now I’m not finding it. FRUSTRATED. Grrrrr…

Cool to see that about the cars. Designingleek, thanks for posting the link to those races. Might have to check it out sometime.

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The Trans-Am cars of that era had a 310ci limit, and most motors were making around 400hp. I found that using the Pony cars with street tire upgrades, roll cage, race suspension, full weight reduction, and keeping them in B class is closest to the actual cars. Also, when the cars that are in the game were running in the T/A series, they had to have a factory rear spoiler, so we didn’t run with the Forza lip spoiler at all. The air dam on the front closely resembles the Forza front spoiler, so we allowed that.

They were great fun on the Street tires, as they still had enough torque to get loose, especially without any rear downforce. If you look at most pictures of the cars from that era of T/A, they have quite a bit of slip angle to them, as they were running bias-ply tires. Bias-ply tires like about 8 to 10 degrees of slip angle, whereas radial tires like far less, like 1 degree or less. The street tires help with the bias-ply tire feel.

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All of my U2 builds have a turbocharger equipped, that was how I could include the BMW 2002.
Why no two-seat cars? Those are considered sports cars and had their own series. The Trans-American Sedan Championship spawned from SCCA’s A Sedan (A/S) class. It was created for sport coupes.
The '71 Skyline is possibly legal for my U2 class. I’ll have to see if it can meet the 10:1 ratio with my build applied.
You don’t have to register yet to see the schedule as I have two races left in season one. You can always register once season two starts and I’ll keep you in that loop.

It’s impossible to make an accurate 1960s - 1970s Trans-Am series using FM4 so I took some liberties, just like in my BMW 2002 explanation above.
I allowed racing slicks and both aerodynamic pieces because we’re working with big blocks. Check Forza’s power numbers in cars legal for Trans-Am, the real race cars had those numbers flipped. They were producing circa 440 horsepower, 370 foot-pounds of torque, and were spinning those engines beyond 7,500 RPM.
I didn’t allow race suspension components because camber, caster, and toe weren’t tuned to the same degree as they are today; I opted for sport suspension components.

I’m splitting hairs but Trans-Am’s O2 class upper limit was initially set to 5 liters / litres (305 CID) and less.
5 liters × 61.02374 cubic inches per liter = 305.1187 cubic inches max.
Ford and Chevrolet created 301 CID (advertised at 302) engines by combining a 4" bore with a 3" stroke.
310 cubic inches was a popular size for Trans-Am cars circa 1996 though the cars were full tube frame and the engines were smaller displacement versions of a NASCAR (358 CID) engine by then.

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Great thread guys!! I love the realism stuff…that’s why I got this game b/c it allows me to feel like I’m racing! I’m not a gamer, and only got into this last year. I’m from the “old school” and used to go watch the Trans Am and Can Am at Riverside in CA. My favorite driver was Mark Donohue…anybody have any of his paint schemes? I wish there was someone at Turn 10 who was more of the “historical” type to build some of those old cars, especially the Can Am cars…that was where innovations in racing took off like a rocket!
I’d like to race with ya as well…how do I go about it? It’ll be my first time online/live. Do I need to join a club? And are the builds available to me or do I have to build 'em? Sorry for all of the questions, but I’m a newbie :smiley: I like the attitude of racing to have fun first (I’m sure we’d all like to win!) but we can’t all win! Cheers, the Count

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I have’nt done a Javelin yet, but I’d be happy to try and do his paint if someone does’nt already have one done.

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Wow, as I posted the above note, it’s the first time my profile has been shown…but it’s wrong. Maybe I’m misinterpreting it but my Gamer Score is 690, and I’ve only been on the system since February of '13!.. As I’ve said, I’m not (nor ever have been) a gamer, this is my first foray (at age 55) at something like this. So far, I’m havin a blast just runnin around the tracks, and tryin to better myself…I don’t care about Gamer Points, levels, etc… I’m just havin fun!!