Anti-dive and anti-squat are killing the cars' handling in this game. Get rid of it

For a couple of days now, I’d been noticing across some other forums and Discord that some Motorsport 2023 players were recommending to zero out the anti-dive and anti-squat settings on cars to greatly reduce, if not outright eliminate understeer in cars. With that in mind, I got back on and gave it a shot.

First car I tried out was the Mercedes-AMG GT Black Series. I reset my entire setup back to stock and then adjusted nothing else but setting the tire pressures to 31 psi and setting the anti-dive and anti-squat numbers as close to zero as possible (note: you won’t always be able to zero out the settings completely - just get as close as you can). Then I ran two laps at Road America. Immediately, there was a much noticeable difference in car feel; the car took corners much more confidently than it had completely stock and braking also seemed to be improved. By the end of the second lap, I’d knocked more than a second and a half off of my lap time.

I then took the Black Series to Mid-Ohio, where I had first noticed how badly the car seemed to handle stock. Same settings, two more laps. Again, a very noticeable improvement, and by the time I completed my two laps, I had shaved off nearly two seconds.

On a lark, I did the same thing to the Porsche 919 Hybrid (minus the tire pressure) and ran a couple of laps at Le Mans. The effect was less noticeable, as that car’s issues deal with oversteer, but there was still increased confidence in the car’s turn-in ability.

Then, on an even bigger lark, I got into a car I knew handled like a pig no matter what I did- the 2018 Ford Mustang GT. Back to Mid-Ohio I went. It took just two turns to notice the improvement. I didn’t even finish the lap.

I chose that last car for a reason, because it illustrates just how bad the stock setups are in this game. If you want these cars to feel anything close to what they should in reality, then the very first thing you are going to have to do is get a race suspension and zero-out anti-dive and anti-squat. They really shouldn’t even be a thing, let alone be set to the numbers that they are. Whatever their reasoning is for including these settings, Turn 10 needs to make it a priority to go across every single one of these cars and setting those numbers to zero stock, just like toe is. I would go so far as to suggest that it needs to be removed from the game completely.

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Interesting find. Thanks, I’ll see how it feels. BTW, are you a controller or wheel user?

I use controller currently.

And the physics exploits begin hey…

Haven’t been paying much attention though so I’m sure there are already a bunch.

Imperfections in physics models are always discovered eventually and exploited. ACC seems to finally be getting to some sort of maturity in this respect but there’s still plenty of settings like this, and that’s been a very long ride.

Problem is though, I seriously don’t expect Turn10 to implement any changes to the physics model. Just bugs, cars and tracks, maybe tweaks to Race Regs and AI.

Look, I really have close to zero knowledge about how to tune a car properly, but I’ve tested quite a few tunes provided by the best players this game has to offer (like mars, harmonic, forza europa etc) and never ever have I seen a tune with both anti-dive and anti-squat being set close to zero.

I’m not saying that there are cars where settings like these might make sense, but I don’t think this works as a general advice. Maybe @JSR_Chronic or @Rayne_SE can enlighten us :slight_smile:

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Do you use Normal or Simulation steering?

Because I’m on controller, I’m using Normal steering right now. Supposedly Simulation is better for controllers now, but I have yet to try it.

I’ve tried it on several cars now, and have not driven one yet that has been negatively affected by doing it. Those are my findings. Like toe, it seems like a setting that should be set to zero at first opportunity and then adjusted in very fine increments if one really has to. It certainly shouldn’t be at the crazy levels that they usually default to and it should be taken off the board for all cars lacking an adjustable suspension.

I just tried it myself, C3 Corvette grip build around Lime Rock. Fanatec CSL DD wheel. Going from the default anti-dive of around +23 to 0 made a huge difference. The steering feels much more responsive and natural. It’s definitely faster as well but I only did a handful of laps, I’ll have to jump into rivals and see how much it effects my time.

I think you’re on to something, this could be a big reason why a lot of cars feel like they just don’t want to turn on the stock suspension. This should probably be right around zero by default. I know the game defaults to “more stable” setups but having the anti-dive jacked up doesn’t really affect stability as far as I can tell.

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Squat sometimes 0/0 squat sometimes 7.8/9.8

Dive is never 0 tho sometimes rear will be like -5 on older fwd cars but on most rwd grip cars I’m over -20 on both values

Depends on engine placement and drivetrain but this new setting has made a massive difference in how cars drive in fm23

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There are still other factors that I feel like can contribute to the stock setups being so bad, like the tires, but I’m starting to feel like the anti-dive and anti-squat numbers play a much larger part in that than was originally evident. Before today, I was of the mindset that the physics model itself was flawed. This makes me think that some of the people who disputed that were right in saying that the physics might actually be OK, and it’s just the setups that are trash.

Same. I mean generally speaking I feel like you can make up just about any “rule of thumb” you like and eventually build a reasonably fast tune around it. But if a fair number of the best tuners in the series aren’t implementing it all, I have my doubts about it killing the game.

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No… not the slightest. But i start to learn where the critics comes from…

This game is so frustrating! So we might have a solution to the understeer problem, but I don’t like lowering the ride height of my stock road cars with racing springs. plus it affects the overall performance stats. But I’m going to try it tomorrow. Edit** I know I can adjust ride height with racing springs, but it doesn’t seem to be the exact same. Always a little higher or a little lower🤬

Can’t really say I like it either. But at this point, I’ll take anything to get the game handling better, and this, so far, has done the most to improve handling yet. It just sucks that, for most cars, you’re going to have to suffer for at least one race before you can do anything about it.

This is not killing anything. If anything, it just shows once again that the default tuning values are not appropriate for most cars.

Anti-dive is used mostly in regular passenger cars to avoid the nose from dipping down too much under braking. Regular cars have very soft springs and it’s not desirable for passenger cars to dive a lot when braking since it would be uncomfortable for the passengers.

In racing cars it’s used mostly to improve aerodynamic efficiency in cars that need to be very close to the ground to be fast. F1 cars use anti-dive to preserve the ground effect that they get from the low-pressure zone created under the floor of the car.

In most racing cars that aren’t as dependent on aerodynamics to be fast, you want the nose to dive to increase grip in the front tires when going through the corner entry phase. The car will be more responsive and it’ll be easier to properly attack the apex.

The main disadvantage of reducing anti-dive applies mostly to aero-dependent cars. If the car dives too much this could lead to reduced aero efficiency under heavy braking and even during cornering.

Another disadvantage of reducing anti-dive is that with more nose dive the camber will also will be impacted under heavy braking and perhaps could lead to a reduced contact patch with the ground, leading to understeer and/or higher tire degradation.

Anyways, the summary is that for most cars that do not use a lot of downforce having a high anti-dive value is detrimental for cornering. The reason you didn’t feel much of an advantage with the Porsche 919 hybrid is because that car actually requires anti-dive to work properly. On a stock Mazda MX5? You don’t need too much or any anti-dive at all. The car relies on mechanical grip to corner so the car should dive under braking to reduce understeer and increase cornering response.

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bEsT tUnErS In ThE sErIeS. The ones that put forza wing and 21 inch wheels on everything, making the game look like a clown show because they exploited lame meta and everyone followed? I’d argue they contribute to the game being trash.

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One other thing that’s also related to people seemingly having a harder time (understeer) with the new physics is it requires a lot more throttle control than previous games. This includes all drive trains and not just RWD.

In FM7, the physics are very loose and light compared to FM.

You can mash the throttle trigger down and cars won’t just rocket forward because of the physics being less weighty, having less downforce and grip (even after tuning). Gearing also plays a crucial role, but even after all the gears are dialed in, there is still less torque being simulated compared to FM.

This is why you get people on Reddit, and here saying, “I hate the understeer! Cars just want to plow through the outer corners even if I just tap the pedal (throttle trigger)”.

Well, what does that tell you?

It tells me, you may need to adjust your throttle deadzones, but more importantly, learn proper throttle control for the new physics as opposed to FM7, or FH5.

As the kids, say, “It’s a skill issue”, but they’re absolutely right when it comes to throttle control being a bigger part of the mechanics this time around, and it’s something everybody is going to have to get used to even after they tune the car(s) to their liking.

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Top times for the 90’s F1 cars are still a ways off from where they were in FM6 and 7. I just took an untuned MP4/4 from FM6 and set a 1:54.8 hardcore around Spa which is about 2 seconds off the number 1 hardcore time in FM ‘23. I’m sure there was 2 or more seconds left on the table too. In the replay the guy had to brake through Pouhon and take it in 4th gear as to where I just had to lift and take it in 5th.

I know I’m no where near being 2-4 seconds off of the top times at such a long track with a stock tuned car with seconds left on the table.

It may solve a little bit, but I don’t think it’s anti dive or anti squat.

I just tried it, and was about 3 seconds quicker than my FM ‘23 time which was a 2:04.8. There’s still a ton of understeer. I have to go through Eau Rouge Raidillion, and Blanchimont at full lock as opposed to using barley any lock in FM6.

There’s not enough slip angle in the game, it’s a fundamental thing. The rear grip dominates the front end.

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So, you gained confidence and shaved a good chunk of time off the settings by canceling anti-squat/dive. I’m glad you shared this with the community, but I am surprised you didn’t keep this info to yourself and use it as an advantage when racing.

I recently started playing with anti-squat and anti-dive and yes reducing the setting does give improvement on an untuned car…

But that is an untuned car.