A car with a good suspension setup does not need aero parts to stick to the ground (look at Le Mans old or the other Le Mans long track No car has Aero parts, yet they all stick to the ground! In fact Down-Force is only putting some constant weight on the suspensions (Force). what makes the suspensions go up and down is Mass. In real life Aero is used to help the car attack the most difficult turn/turns easier and to get the most out of that car for that specific track. It’s VERY track specific and it’s based on physics. Forza 5 is based on real physics more that any other Forza ( I played them all since day 1) Again THIS IS MY OPINION! Same car/different tracks= different Aero setups That’s real…
I’m not gonna lie but this statement makes my head hurt. The only reason the cars don’t have aero is to achieve the highest possible top speed on the straight, and in turn the loss of aero will cause the car to be slower in the turns epically the high speed turns. If you could achieve the same top speed in a car with full aero then that’s what you would want to do. A car with aero will always be faster through corners at speed than a car without. Yes you still need a properly setup suspension on the car and the grippiest set of tires but to say a car really doesn’t need aero is rubbish. If you take all the aero and under trays off of a Formula 1 car or a LMP car and expect them to lap as quickly as they do with them then your just kidding yourself. Yes some tracks require less aero than others and some cars can make due with less aero help overall but it’s still needed. Ask any race car driver if they had a choice of running max aero on every track without loosing the speed on the straights and I would guarantee they would all say yes please.
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- I agree having aero makes cornering easier and faster.
- Given a car with same everything else, it is impossible to have max aero without loosing speed > therefore it is not an argument
- Adding aero in Forza is personal preference: aero may make the car corner faster but there are people preferring no aero for many reasons
One may ask why anyone would prefer non-aero. From non-aero drivers’ POV, they might ask why anyone would want to drive with aero . . .
That said,
IMO, the downforce setting in Forza is fudged = not accurately portrayed. My subjective reason/rationality is this: the car feels noticeably grippy even from standing start but it should only become noticeable at 50+mph. Say for eg. 100 lbf of downforce is set. At what speed does 100 lbf apply? Downforce increases squarely with speed therefore 25 lbf at 60mph would increase to 100 lbf at 120 mph. so is setting of 100 lbf at 60mph? 100mph? At top speed? It is UNKNOWN and UNSPECIFIED anywhere.
It is my opinion that 100 lbf of downforce is effective at ALL speeds (very very easy on the processor). The massless force/weight is added to the vehicle BUT not to the mass of the car therefore not taken into moment of inertia calculations.
What the downforce setting does affect is the amount of drag; higher the downforce setting the higher the drag force (also increasing squarely wrt speed) which drastically limits the top speed.
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I agree with everything here and we are working within the limits and physics of the game. How much real world physics are in the game is the question. As for the use of aero on the car I believe it all factors into the track layout and the skill level and comfort of each player. I have many cars with and without aero in my garage some choices based on handling and others on pure aesthetics. In C class on Old LeMans I choose to run a car with aero when racing in the lobbies because I’m not comfortable driving the Camaro without it. Yes I loose top speed but when we get into the corners I’m able to go much faster and make up the ground lost because others can’t handle the car through the corners. It’s always a gain vs loss scenario. The comment made about a properly set up suspension doesn’t need aero is what made me laugh and reminded me of something Enzo Ferrari said about how " Aerodynamics are for people who can’t build engine.". Well he sure could build a engine and oh look even Ferrari uses aero on all of their race-car’s and even street cars. Any cars that must take corners will always be a bit quicker around the track with a proper aero setup than the same car without.
+1. Aero on some cars are hideous while aero on cars such as 370Z enhances the look.
I prefer the clean look over faster lap times.
I also like the way no-aero cars slide through the corners.
Then there are Lotus 49 & Brabham where there are no aero options = fantastic drive.
Agree 100%
+1
Not sure how T10 analyzes/applies this within the game, yet, in RL the aero is a dynamic (non-linear) force and varies by the speed the car is traveling.
Someone asked this question and it never seemed to get answered, but why put more downforce on the already heavier part of the car. I feel like your math is backwards. Wouldn’t you want to hold down the lighter areas?
I did whatever works , if you want to know why it is like that, I dont know, ask someone that did the programming for the phiyics.
and inversing my data, you can (sort of) tune the aero of a car with no wings but looking and the weight % and adjusting the rest with tyre widths and ride height. The whole point of it is to make driving and tuning eaiser by having the balance the same from low to high speed.
Yes more downforce = more drag so I think I want to balance. You can tune your aero two ways with still using the guide, low downforce when one of the wings is at min (or if you want to be tricky one side of the car with no wing), or high downforce with one wing at max (generally its going to be the front wing that’s max).
How do you know if a car is 50 % or 50.9 % weight distribution?
One way is when in the upgrade car screen go to any specific part upgrade and then press up on the d-pad. This toggles the stats on the right hand side of the screen and one of the stats is weight distribution.
think you missed the decimal point
oops ok I know the question now.
I don’t believe it needs to be that scientific. I would say if in game it says 50 then use the 50% line from the table and test and also test aero values +/- a few % each side of that anyway. Final numbers should be arrived at via testing not from a table.
I read through this and quite honestly, my brain hurts. Anyway, I’m wondering if this formula could or should be added to the forzatune app, currently the app calculates arb, damp, bump etc off the figures u type in from tire size, weight, distribution and finally from the aero settings u apply yourself. It’d be nice to include optimum aero settings in the calculations if it were at all possible. Thoughts?
Just like any setting they may or may not work with the rest of the tune so personally I would not add these aero settings into the app unless it is proven they work with the other “pro forma” settings from the tune app.
All settings need to work together to get the correct feel for the car.
I can not use the aero settings in this thread without making quite radical changes elsewhere in my tune - unless I use these aero settings on fwd cars. They are the only cars where they seem to work for me. RWD and to a lesser extent AWD these settings produce high speed oversteer. This thread has resulted in me testing lower rear aero and in some cases using it but in others concluding that higher rear aero was needed.
If you are determined to continue using the Forzatune app the best thing to do would be to ask the author of Forzatune if they can test these settings alongside their other formulae and see if they work as a complete package.
Its for a base start, its not going to work so well adding it a balanced car because springs greatly affect aero, where as aero only works the mid to high speed and affects it greater the faster you go.
The better a tune is that harder its going to make it better.
I was looking into this for my base tunes and I had a question.
Using grgu’s formula (%FW / %RW) * Front Down Force Wanted I received numbers that the game cannot achieve. For example, with the Mazda RX-3 weighing 1,797 pounds, having a 53% front weight bias, and wanting to maintain the 75 pound front down force the equation yields 66 or 67 pounds (rounded) but the rear aero won’t go so low.
Using the other formula FDF + (258 - 485(%FW)) I got 75 or 76 (again, rounded) which is as low as the settings go.
I’m not doubting your math or what you have observed, I’m simply wondering what I should be doing in this situation. Obviously, I can’t put the FDF any lower otherwise the corresponding RDF will also drop and that cannot happen. At this point, what is the best course of action? Should I not use the aero, should I make changes elsewhere, should I just leave it where the game puts it and fine tune it once on the track from where it is?
If the car has a 53% if should be able to work, if you fdf is 75 then just 75*1.0095 and have that as your rear wing. So set your rear wing to 75.7 and your all good. If you rear wing has too much downforce for that just set at at max or min (as close as your can to get that number) and tune it or fine tune it with springs and such. Its a base guide just set at as close as you can.