In the real world, wider tyres, as an isolated change, do actually make a car slower. The reason why this seems not to match real world experience is because softer compounds have more grip, and the tyre has to be wider to permit a softer compound to be used, the physics of it is explained here:
I have found wider tyres in some situations to make a car slower in FH4, as would be expected from the real world physics (more rotating mass for no grip benefit).
When you do an AWD swap, it resets all the drivetrain upgrades to base level, giving a misleading impression if some elements were upgraded before the swap. Also, the PI difference depends on other build elements, so if you change from RWD to AWD as the first thing you do, it sometimes looks like you haven’t changed the PI much, but if you upgrade the engine first, you can then see a much bigger PI change when you switch to AWD, reflecting the fact that it gives more benefit when you have more power. It may depend on other elements as well, such as the weight distribution, but from what I’ve seen, the PI change is variable and in some way seems to be related to other elements. There is definitely potential for getting better performance in some situations if you’re able to handle RWD.
If upgrade everything else and then change car drivetrain there is then huge difference few example hdt commandore all power s900 tune with awd but when swapping rwd pi goes down to 792 and after upgrades all drivetrain parts pi800. Another example ford fpv ute drift build pi with rwd 880 after awd swap pi 947 and after upgrades all drivetrain parts pi 948.
I saw a great example of this yesterday when playing with the Alfa 33S. You reach a point where adding more power doesn’t change the PI at all, because the game knows the tyres can’t transmit it to the road. I tried driving it after adding something like 200bhp for no PI change, and it was totally undriveable. If you swap from RWD to AWD when it’s in that state, it adds over 100 PI, because the game knows that’s how much difference it will make in terms of power being transferred to the road.
I was starting to build bmw 2002 before i read this so i first swap 4,0l v8 and install all upgrades (camshaft just lower pi in that point) so totally stock bmw 2002 with fully upgraded v8 pi 584, awd swap raise pi on to 767, or if just install street tires while it’s still rwd pi 707 and after installing those tires and then make awd swap pi raise in 822. And it was really terrible to drive when pi was 584.
Bring exceptions to the table doesnt change the fact most AWD swaps are better and cheaper … with most of my RWD tunes … swap to AWD power the pi enough to bring back the power ratio with either upgrade or weight reducition … and even if its not back to where it was … the grip and launch advantage is Big enough to make the cars faster in most situations
AWD shouldnt grip this much and have these crasy launch with almost no wheel spin … it feel almost as flat as TC2 physic … even AWD need launch control to get something like that IRL
But i want to say … why shouldnt care that much about realism and its about balance in an arcade game … i want remind u that X cars take corners faster than F1 cars
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Mo_p_1NdDI Do really powerfull awd cars looks that they spin wheels a lot when launcing? We dont have f1 in horizon but in fm7 we have and f1 car is best cornering car that there is and cars like sesto or mc12 fe dont corner that well than f1 car. And forza series is not arcade game just by forza’s semi realistic drive models make it that forza dont count as arcade racing game. I check 15 normal tunes that i have made, biggest pi difference was 15 nissan 370z pi drops at 900 to 885 biggest diffrence in different way was 8, ferrari 599 gto pi raises at 900 to 908, so nothing big differences. You mention grip and launch advantage but you forgot mention that rwd have speed advantage in straights. And awd is easier to driver than rwd in real life so why should in game rwd be macigaly as easy to drive.
Edit: I have long time think to getting second tvr cerbera, so i get one and build it in s900 with rwd and drive it around bamburgh that i have drive most, im really bad rwd driver and i really suprise when my best time with tvr was only 0,4s slower than my track record. Then i think im gonna build it on awd at s900, and i really suprised when i awd swapped it pi raises at 930 with same parts that rwd tune use. Well i reset tune and awd swapped it first pi 908 all cheating (wing/tires/heavier rims) to get pi lower and lowest than can get is 904 well i drive it anyway and it was 0,5s slower than rwd tune.
And like rayne se say allready in second post that fh4 is mutch more balanced than fh3 was, too bad that great balancing is ruined in current online system.
yep you re probably right … im more an racer than a time trial driver … so i might be blinded by the online mess … but still u note the inconstancy of the AWD swap … and most OP S1 and A class cars are AWD swap (08 viper, McLaren F1, bone shaker, shelby daytona etc)
and about the F1 comparison … it was an hyperbola … yes forza is sim cade … and as an sim racer … aside speed difference … FM and FH feel very much the same …
and i still thing that is not the PI that been balance … its just the tracks layout that force us to build more balance cars … i tried my old FH3 tune in FH4 and they feel the same … just not made for FH4 races layouts
Yeah i wouldnt pick in online any other cars than awd, freeroam rush, all the ramming, wet roads etc. Bone shaker is absolutly op (1,5 second faster around bamburgh than my second best a800, what is old bentley btw)
And that’s weird because few rare times i have been able to port fh3 tune it’s have feel terrible, like ariel nomad that was top 10 rivals car in fh3 feels bad and was mutch slower than fh4 tune. And some of those fh3 tunes wouldnt work fh4 at all like b700 holden torana.
And to ae100 sprinter have some good points but some things i dont agree.
Race transmisson show that acceleration goes down a lot but when looks forza estimate time to acclerate those are pretty mutch same.
The dagz allready say that supsensions are different.
v8 is swap is not that op (like it was in fh3) espicialy in s1 class when you can get even racing v12 swap some cars.
Which is the class where cars cant be competive on their own engine? Actualy i think it’s not lower classes it’s s2 class where almost every car is with f50 gt engine.
If i remember right regera wasnt use that many tracks in fh3 rivals. But sadly we dont have real rivals mode so we could see how good rwd cars would do in time attack mode. Online is just ramming offroad fiesta so there is no use in rwd cars.
you re used to FH4 cars now … but because im going back and forth between games … i can tell they feel the almost same … but im playing with a wheel … its may be that …
They are almost the same if you tune same car using same parts its almost the same game but now all cars have less front grip what make us need more grip and more grip=easier to drive
This is Horizon and EVERY race is offroad. Street races still include some off road - and thats not including getting pushed off. Then of course the 2 Free Roam are also off road for at least some extent.
As such - as much as it pains me - All my online builds are AWD.
Until they create some sort of actual road only races - the AWD PI Balance is the least of their problems.
In FH3, even most of my off-road rigs where RWD and I still won races. FH3 had a much less skilled player base though, but I still think AWD is even more OP in FH4 and it’s not because of the tracks.
Devs are lazy to correct this issue, it’s a glitch/bug in the game which makes cars better and provides more grip but in real life, AWD cars are good only for offroad.
AWD Provides more traction, means better handling ( this is related to only Horizon series)
AWD increases Acceleration(At a cost of top speed) and in Horizon, Acceleration is more important than top speed.
Installing an AWD means you will get a launch control, no matter it’s a Peel P50 or a Nissan GTR. You will see that Launch goes up.
Because you sacrifice top speed in the process. A good chunk of speed will be cut down, i.e installing an AWD in Pagani Huyayra BC will reduce your top speed by ~100mph.
Wider REAR wheel = more weight = less handling
on the contrary
Wider FRONT wheel = better handling
In case of AWD cars, this is just Forza Horizon logic lmao
Rear wings lowers the PI because installing rear wings will increase downforce, and a higher downforce means lower top speed. Which eventually reduces the PI. On the contrary, installing tunable front lip kit will increase the PI because Forza Logic
Also somethings I’d like to add to your post which is purely Forza logic:
Cars in lower class are not competitive with their own engine.
A V8 swap means a competitive car, actually a V8 swap increases your cars statistics. A car with no V8 engine cannot be a competitive in A/B Class, sometimes even S1
Rally cars made for rallying is not competitive unless you install a 1.6L Turbo Rally engine.
Increasing front rim size will increase your cars PI but your stats will go down.
Increasing rear rim size will not increase your car’s PI but will decrease also your stats will go down ( Y THO?)
People who use metric system(like me who’s in Asia), will have a hard time tuning the car because the tuning bar is different than Imperial. In Imperial system the tuning is accurate, i.e for tire pressure i can choose 28.5 PSI but in Metric the values doesnt show accurate numbers (seriously, what the hell is wrong with you people? )
Installing a race transmission will lower your acceleration ( this started from horizon 4, it was not like this in Horizon 3 though)
Despite it says there are race, street and offroad springs, you can actually install race/drift springs and raise the car height to make it offroad springs. There’s no difference.
Installing rollcage will lower the acceleration but will also lower the handling (DAFUk?)
There’s more, i can’t even remember now.
Also someone mentioned the Ultima 1020 is the goliath boss despite it’s rear wheel drive, well you see, while doing rivals you’re completely on your own, with no traffic and no disturbance. RWD cars competitive only on S2 Rivals mode. This is the only reason why, because Goliath has long roads where you need top speed more than handling/grip. You are not affected by any sorts of ramming or going offroad. This is where the RWD shines the best. And also In Horizon 3 the best car to do most rivals was Koenigsegg Regera, yes it’s also RWD. And that’s also the same reason, you dont need grip for longer races so that’s were the RWD cars shines the best because you already lost so much top speed when converting to AWD.
Maybe on the stats because the converted gearbox is poorly adjusted. Every swap comes with a “sport gearbox” with adjustable axle. So the Huayra BC won’t lose any top speed when converting to AWD. Just readjust the gearbox.
Not entirely true. There are AWD cars on which a rear wing increases PI. AWD cars with a lot of power, less grip or extremely rear-heavy weight distribution (Ariel Atom for example). Front lip spoiler/canards will increase the PI on AWD and FWD by a lot because these suffer from understeer and the spoiler helps a lot with that.
I have many cars on A/S1 that are extremely competitive without a V8 swap. Sure, most of the V8 swap-engines are great but not necessary for a good car. If you’re looking for a “make any car usable” engine in Horizon 4 take a look at the V12 F50 GT engine. This even turns cars like the Jaguar F-Type Project 7 into decent ones. The Rev-Banger V8-Subarus are gladly a thing of the past.
Increased front rim size will only increase the PI if the car’s tires can’t hold up with the rest of the car. On very balanced builds increasing front rim size will decrease PI because of the weight gain. Increased rear rim size can also increase PI if the car has poor tires. Can be seen on many old cars. The reason for the diffference between increasing front or rear rim size is because of the stability gain you get in those instances (PI increase with increased rim size) while turning.
Race transmission won’t lower the actual acceleration. It’s just that many race gearboxes are badly adjusted. Don’t trust the performance bars, look at the acceleration data. Same thing as the one above with the Pagani.
There is a difference in every spring setup. Off-road has the highest height and softest springs. Race has lower ride height and stiffer springs. Drift has the lowest ride height, same stiffness as race and a higher steering angle.
Installing rollcages can decrease the handling if the weight of the rollcage negates its stability improvement.
The general problem with AWD in Horizon 4 comes from a combination of things:
the nature of online racing (short, chaotic, Freeroam Rush)
3 out of 4 seasons providing RWD-unfriendly road conditions
PI tricks which result from the combination of rear tires and race diff(especially this). You can basically build a RWD-like car without downsides and better stats than the RWD build. Hello@A800 Bone Shaker.
On dry roads on a balanced track the PI system works. But every aberration from this benefits AWD. Goliath being the only exception.
Race transmission lowers your acceleration because of the gearing chagnes that occur with the transmission swap. You can tune it such that the acceleration is faster
Springs ARE different tunes. IE if you install drift springs your max height is much lower than Rally springs Default suspension tune stats are also different if you install say drift springs Vs race (stiffness / camber / etc).
Overall though I agree with you - lots of Forza Logic lol.
Its amazing how this AWD fanboys try everything(except race against you) to make people believe AWD is not overpowered, AWD ITS OVERPOWERED and its not a small diference the diference on start of the race is big enough for be impossible beat AWD (obviously im talking about 2 experienced players one on RWD and another on AWD) take a mid engine car AWD swap lower PI bigger rear(hey link especialist we run over 200 mph and with high HP not on 60 mph like on a race track big tyres will be more grip and AWD need to be based on RWD or FWD sport cars are based on RWD the front wheels are just helping 75%+ power to rear) the system of FH4 believe AWD are FWD that why lower Pi with spoiler, big rear tyre and AWD swap on mid engine cars it works like if AWD need the same or less handling than RWD but on forza AWD need less handling, take a mid engine car AWD swap race spoiler big rear tyre adjust gear ration to increase acceleration on start of race now how RWD will win? And you can install rally tyres to lower PI and keep grip if you know how to tune
