Anyone really compare the difference between sim/normal steering with the controller?
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I have to disagree a little bit with the idea the no assist drivers are better… they are just better video game players. I use TCS and ABS because I can’t physically manipulate a controller to near millimeter increments. I pretty much have off, part and full throttle and breaking because that’s as accurate as I can get. Same with steering too really. This is why I HATE playing shooter games, I can’t aim with pinpoint accuracy, I’m all over the place and end up getting slaughtered. I don’t feel any shame in using assists. I would never have any fun with this game without them.
I have and you get more accurate steering with SIM, but the snap back is over the top. I use it because it is more accurate to real world however T10 decided to make the snap back that of a straight wall tire, which no motorsport series uses any longer for that very reason. Normal is ridiculous because it makes every car driftable at ridiculous speeds and does not give you accurate steering angle.
While I can agree that you could make that argument, it really won’t hold up. You contradicted your statement there because we are speaking of “better” drivers as pertaining to this game, that’s it. So it would be factual to say that it does require one to have more skill than another to be better at this game, would it not? I have nothing against people that use assist other than I don’t care to play series are or really anything ranked without a level playing field. And I find it hilarious that the LB represent mediocrity and cheating edges rather than the actual fastest drivers.
I didn’t really contradict myself, I simply pointed out that physical manipulation of the video game controller can vary GREATLY from person to person and that ability (to use a handheld video game controller to very minute increments) is entirely different then being a good video game driver. I might know everything you know about race driving. I might have years and years of real world racing experience. I might be the greatest racer in the world! But put a controller in my hand and I might seem like a 15 year old behind the wheel for the first time.
Yes, the no assist drivers might be “better” drivers as pertaining to this game, but that’s not necessarily because they are better “drivers,” just that they are better controller manipulators.
A highly knowledgeable, highly experienced, highly skilled driver might be able to put the smack down on some of the “best” while using a few assists to help them operate in a video game environment… however, if the best video game drivers had the knowledge and skill of those drivers then they might literally make the leaderboards explode!
That said, there are plenty of FANTASTIC drivers with FANTASTIC controller skills who kill it in this game and scare the hell out of me. Sometimes I feel like a 5 year old on a Big Wheel racing Mario Andretti.
You have a good point. This is a video game and not reality or real life. I have been modifying and racing cars since the 1990s and most that play this game are teenage boys and girls that have no real life experiences on the track pushing a car to the limits… Most if used R compound tires would literally cause accident after accident.
(In Drag Racing only comparison)
Anyway I run no assists in drag racing and here is a comparison of the same vehicle:
Ruf Yellowbird
Automatic with stability control = 7.797 in the quarter mile.
No assists = 7.697 in the quarter mile.
Both are fast IMO but you can see the difference. I was the only P class Ruf to hit 7.6 in the quarter while Marble was the only R class Ruf to hit 7.6.
Lol at your last statement, I feel the same at times with some of the really good people I have run into online. I can see what you are saying about the controller, wasn’t fully awake when I responded earlier. It’s like watching a my fat fingers try to type really fast on my wife’s iphone, irritating;)
I will say I encourage everyone to drive without assists, but then again at the end of the day it is a video game not a SIM so it should be challenging and enjoyable. I seem to forget that at times, as the game basically holds me over for when I can’t drive in person or when the wife starts peaking into my racing budget;)
I totally agree with everything Macace21 is saying although its true that you simply cannot expect the average gamer to “play by your rules” so to speak which is why threads and forums like this are created. I’ll put in my .02 cents for the OP and anyone that’s wants to go 0 assists. I come from a racing background. TO ME, not a single game out there gives you the same palm sweating, heart pumping action that Forza gives you in a lobby full of fast, CLEAN, drivers that play the game as “road racers”. I run No ABS/TCS manual with clutch and the biggest one NO LINE. The usual excuse for driving with a brake line is “im going to run straight into someone if i dont have it on” heres what you do…grab the car your most familiar with, pick a track, and go out there and in the brake zones pick out some visual marker and always start to brake there…if you come up short and have to coast into your entry point, push your marker deeper into the brake zone. If you end up going In to hot and completely MISS your entry and go into the grass…guess what…you move your marker out of the brake zone. Its that simple! Takes a bit of time and effort but that will teach anyone how to make effective and clean passes throughout any race. For example in A class at Laguna seca (depending on how I want to go into T1) I’ll brake at the #3 board on the right side and that will make me take the turn nice and tight. (Perfect for the beginning of the race when every on runs it wide) T2 I brake and turn at the #2 board and T3 I let off the throttle at #2 turn in shortly after and get back on the throttle at the apex. And every time youre right next to someone going into a turn you already know when to brake and where you’ll end up when you brake and what kind of drive you’ll get out of corners. With Manual and clutch I upshift with X and downshift with B, clutch is A. For downshift I press A, B, and RT AT THE SAME TIME for a perfect “heel n toe” downshift every time. Im donw this took forever to type up on my cell LOL
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One last thing ill add, driving cockpit helps you judge speed and upcoming corners way better then anything else!
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The thing is, not all of us come from racing backgrounds or jobs related to car repair/tuning. Some of us are just normal people, like me, who play forza just because they love cars and really enjoy motorsports. I don’t completely understand how a car works, nor am I completely knowledgeable of driving physics, but I do try to drive the best I can and have fun with everyone else. We’re not you, so don’t expect us to be.
I’ll chime in here with my thoughts and some reasoning behind them. I don’t consider myself to be a ‘top’ racer as I haven’t ever had a ‘top’ time, ie; 1st place. I have multiple top 20 times though, so pretty quick…
View first. I know some top guys use chase cams, some use cockpit. I use hood cam. I think view is just down to preference and what you are used to. No camera angle offers any significant advantage over the other. Chase cam doesn’t make your car faster for example! Personally I find hood the best as it is the most ‘uncompromised’ view in that there isn’t a bunch of scaffolding in my way like cockpit view often does, and it lets me see where my car is going to be in relation to a corner or kerb better than chase cam as it is closer.
Assists. Manual with clutch is faster. Period. If it wasn’t then the leaderboards would look a lot different than they do now. Map clutch to A button as mentioned before so you can mash both buttons at once. Using clutch does not necessarily mean your laps will be quicker though. Knowing when to shift is of paramount importance. You need to shift at the point that will lose least HP when accelerating. This has been discussed before, but basically if you are at 5000rpm producing 300HP, then shift to 3500rpm and produce 270HP, that is better than say shifting at 4800rpm, 295HP to 3200rpm, 255HP.
ABS off is quicker. ABS basically limits the amount of force to the brakes to prevent lockups. So if you pull the trigger 80%, but the car detects it will lock up at 70% pressure, it automatically reduces the pressure to the brakes to say 68%. But Forza ABS is very conservative and kicks in early. This means you are losing potential braking force due to over-cautious assists. In reality it might not lock until 75% pressure, so you are losing over 9% potential effective braking force.
STM - off. I don’t think I have ever even used STM! It basically brakes individual wheels to prevent the car getting out of control. Again it is a very conservative assist and will brake wheels mid turn as the game thinks you might lose it at any point, when in reality you wouldn’t.
TCS - This is the big one. High power cars (seemingly even B class is subject to this in FM5, as well as the usual Le Mans ‘rocket cars’) will benefit with TCS on as you don’t need to be so precise with the throttle. That said, if you can be precise with the throttle, TCS on is still quicker as it will limit wheelspin even if you think you are being super careful with throttle application, which it is likely you are not. Some cars have overly intrusive TCS though and will bog down quite a bit before letting rip. These cars still benefit from TCS, but you need to be super controlled with corner speed and throttle to get the best exit.
Steering - Normal is best for me. Sim steering will see you spinning out. A lot. Normal steering will help you recover quicker from a loss of traction on the front wheels when turning. For example if you clip a big kerb mid turn, and try to counter it, normal steering will assist you in getting straight again and compensate for any over-aggressive counter steering moves by yourself. Most useful with a controller for sure. Not saying sim steering will be slower, but it will be much harder to master and probably take more laps to set a fast time as you will undoubtedly make more mistakes.
Line - I use braking line. I often ignore it. Again it’s very conservative and will indicate you need to brake a lot earlier than you really need to. The line it shows is not always the fastest way round a corner either, but you learn that over time with practise and experimentation (and following faster ghosts). Really I use the line as an indicator, like real race drivers use the track side markers as an indication of braking points. Normally I know if I am about 5-10ft into the red, it’s time to start braking.
Damage - I like to use sim when racing as it adds an element of strategy to a race (if it’s a long enough race…!) But for hot lapping, if I think I may need to run 30, 40, 50 laps to beat a rival and set a new faster time I turn damage off. That way I can run for ages without worrying about tyre degradation, and if I make a mistake and faceplant a wall at 130mph I can just carry on. Pitting, or quitting and starting again because of damage can really break a good flow, and getting into the groove is quite important for leaderboard attacks.
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I use braking line and TCS on only. If you want faze out TCS though you can, just run it on with some serious practice focussing on throttle control for a few weeks then knock it off, there’ll be a small difference but your throttle control should be good enough to start practising without it on. Just like with ABS you can still feather the brake and not have the ABS actually activate at all. I literally used to have ABS on and it turned out I never needed it as I was braking appropriately for non ABS usage anyway so when I turned it off I didn’t notice the difference. ABS is similar to TCS but it’s feathering throttle not brake… Just harder to adjust to and there’s more variables to master.
TCS off as opposed to on doesn’t save you that much time and most fast drivers have the ability to drive without it anyway it’s just better for hotlapping. The benefits of it on outweigh the benefits of having it off. If you’re not hotlapping and racing online instead you may as well have it off if you can because it’s fun.
It is fascinating to me to read how you guys drive. Just to put my driving into perspective, I’m happy if I get a track time of a clean run below the 10K mark. My best time is in R class at San Marina Full. I think I’m about 3K there!
I think somebody wrote in this thread they cannot manipulate a controller to the exacting precision needed to be a top clean racer. I am in the same boat. In shooters I suck due to not being able to move precisely to target quick and accurate
.
I have done a bit of live races, I admit I bump, but believe me, it’s not intentional. It’s really just my level of competency. I have a LOT of fun driving these simulations and do it from the driver’s seat looking out the window because I like to see the dash boards of the cars I would LOVE to drive for real some day.
I do thank you guys for your words, because I am getting faster and reading how you approach it gives me new idea’s to apply to my driving. My biggest problem has been braking properly for a corner, in a real car; I get a sense of speed and depth perception with feeling the movements of the car through the seat. I like the idea of looking for a marker to begin my braking on in the game. I’ll apply that to my driving next while turning off ABS. I already have TCS off. I think learning to shift will take me to my next level.
Thanks All!
All this talk about racing and what to turn off.
How many use the steering wheel controller ??
That’s what the sim is for not normal controllers.
You are discussing racing games here. !! Lol
I understand the other view but let’s be honest about the facts, fast no assist driver being beat by fast assisted driver turns on assists and now beats said driver. So who is the better driver in the game? With these leagues, so many of you are scared to run legit assist setups and it unevens the field. Assists may make the game fun for you but it does not for me. Just to clarify, I can live with all the assists with the exception of driving line in multiplayer. The ability to use that is the biggest cheat ever, it is like T10 wants to make sure everyone gets a participation medal.
Plan and simple assisted runs should be docked on the LB and line assist in any capacity should be banned from MP.
I don’t see the big argument between assists and no assists. It seems that the general consensus is that all assists off are quicker, if that in fact is true what is the problem? Yes people running assists will have faster times than they would be posting without assists is that such a big deal? Driving with assists absolutely takes more concentration and skill but I wouldn’t go as far as saying it’s cheating.
Everything about the game is uneven, that’s the beauty of if! If you want it to be an even field everyone would be hot lapping the same car on the same track.
For the record I use full racing line and manual without clutch as assists and don’t plan on changing any time soon. I’ve found this is the most consistent way for ME to be fast. Blast away all you want but if you take away the racing line line you’re going to have A LOT more people trying to enter your back seat.
I try to push as much as I can out of the car and for me this is only possible with the racing line. I can’t memorize all the braking points from all the tracks in all the classes for all my cars. The Line is not the fastest way around the track anyway… Best used as a GUIDE for knowing when and how long to brake and also how much I can be on the throttle coming out of corner.
LB’s with full line shouldn’t be an issue as it’s not the fastest line! Also after 20+ laps same car same track in succession you’re not looking at it even if it’s there. A cars tune has way more influence on it’s time around the track then the drivers assists…
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The xx Tyrant I would love to agree with you but I can’t. If you don’t pay attention to the line then why even have it on, isn’t part of the skill to choose your own line, braking points, and amount of throttle? If assists don’t make that much of a difference then why are the majority of fast times on the LB have TC? There are a few with no assists, and mind you they are quick as hell, but they are ranked lower than someone with TC. There are certain cars that just don’t compare to others without a very skilled driver and assists make them competitive, the less skilled driver that is. I guess in all honesty that I have just gotten tired of getting crap talked to me because someone is 1-4 secs faster than me when I run no assists and cockpit view and they are running chase view with assists. I guess I just need to accept the fact that this is not a Sim and that the majority of people playing don’t care to run it as one either.
Not sure if I missed it in your previous posts, but I get the same frustration level when it’s someone running dirty laps. But that’s a whole different battle.
I keep the racing line on for those 1-2 corners a lap or even a race for when I’m really trying to push and would be late braking and running through a corner or accelerating too quickly out of one and going wide if it wasn’t there. I use it for the color change not the line itself. You would probably see it as more of an assist this way and I agree with you, as it allows me to save corner that would otherwise ruin my lap or race. You can’t win a race with 1 corner but it only takes 1 to ruin it.
I’ve also tried using clutch and it may be that I actually drive a standard that kinda messes with being able to hit a button for clutch. I really like using the bumpers to shift but I found when I shift with a controller I try to shift the same way I would in a real car. Off throttle hold clutch then shift then release clutch and creep back on throttle which is slower than just mashing a and b at the same time while keeping the throttle pinned… It might save some time mashing to shift with clutch then it would using one button and not clutch but I’m not totally sold. I did feel a bit dirty for the little while I tried running with the button mash shift system as I feel if your shifting that way its more to be able to say that your using manual with clutch than actually having to do anything different.
Not trying to be hypocritical, and I give props to people running without assists. I don’t think button mashing is a difficult enough task for someone to get credit for using a clutch.
As for getting trash talked I would just call them out on using training wheels. Yes my driving line is my security blanket and I’m sure eventually it will have to go.
Forza isn’t a SIM just a more realistic racing game. I kinda carried this on for longer than I thought I would.
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A - clutch
B - upshift
X - downshift
ABS off
TCS on in higher classes S,R,P,X
STM off
manual with clutch
third person
braking line
this is my setup.