It is Street AND Racing Technology right???
tada problem solved
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but this is really sad. on all seriousness (I’m thinking about one of those FIAT annoying commercials)
It’s not even about being a fan of corvette over viper. They should race each other and BMW and Ferrari and Porsche and more. What makes it even worse is that IMSA basically gifted SRT the championship through balance of performance changes. Oh well, I figure the Joke That is SRT Part III will be about the Viper’s cancellation…or the Hellpig.
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You know, some of us on here are fans of SRT. While everyone everyone has a right to their opinion, jumping on here and straight up calling SRT garbage is uncalled for.
Fiat is still in the process of reorganizing Chrysler, and they recently decided that SRT would go back to being under Dodge instead of its own brand. My bet is that SRT is pulling out of TUDOR because they’ll come back as Dodge next year. I personally don’t like the change because I thought SRT was doing great as their own brand, and it was awesome seeing someone as cool as Ralph in charge of everything, but whatever Fiat feels is best…
The Viper is going to be around for quite awhile. Hate on it all you want, but without the Viper there’d be nothing to push the Corvette to improve. And at the end of the day the Viper and Vette are America’s two supercars. It’s my firm belief that if you hate one of them just because you’re a fanboy of the other, you don’t deserve to be called a car enthusiast. Appreciate them both or get out; I can’t stand blind, close-minded fanboys…
The Hellcat was Dodge’s answer (finally) to the Camaro ZL1 and Shelby GT500. The thing people forget is that the entire point of a muscle car is to get as much power for as little money as possible. In that sense, the Hellcat is currently the best muscle car out there. The ZL1 is a beast around a track, but it really isn’t much of a muscle car anymore, more so a sports car. The GT500 is an awesome muscle car, but its major selling point was its big power advantage over the Challenger and Camaro, and the Hellcat has pretty much evened that up. The Hellcat may be heavy, but it’s not nearly as bad as a lot of people think. The ZL1 weighs about 4,100lbs, the GT500 weighs about 3,900, and the Hellcat weighs about 4,400. 300lbs more than a ZL1 balances out when you have 127+ more HP. Is it heavy? Yes, but it isn’t as detrimental as people make it out to be. Oh, and the Hellcat is also far more liveable than the Camaro and Mustang, so there’s another positive for it. They’re all great cars, don’t be hating on one of them just because you fail to appreciate them individually for what they are.
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…But I didn’t call them “garbage.” As I explained in The Joke That is SRT Part I (on the old forum), I don’t consider SRT as living up to its potential. So on the contrary I don’t “HATE” SRT, I’m disappointed in SRT.
We shall see
Once again, we shall see. But the facts are that the car did not sell to expectations. SRT priced the car to play with the entry level exotics and got their tail handed to them in the market. Frankly, I think a large part of that is due to not having an automatic transmission available and having a reputation for being “rough” and difficult to drive. Now, after a price reduction, the viper will compete basically head to head with corvette Z06 while offering less performance, usability, and technology. …It will have better paint, though.
…I don’t hate the Viper. Why would I be mad that the Viper isn’t racing if I hated the Viper?
The corvette team has publically stated multiple times that they don’t consider Viper as competition, they target Porsche. Viper is like the old corvette Shelby Cobra rivalry that really wasn’t. The Viper, like the Cobra, is rawer than the corvette, fast, and more expensive. There is nothing wrong with that, but it really only can capture a small niche of the market. The corvette (like the 911) is designed for broader appeal.
I’d respond to this if it applied to me.
I’ll address the Hellpig at some possible future time, considering how it performs in actual owner’s hands. But suffice to say that the Hellpig arrives to the party the same way it arrives at a corner; late, with a bunch of noise, and without the skillset to compete in a market that’s rapidly evolving.
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Say it one more time I swear. It is without a doubt the best muscle car currently available. The dollar to power ratio is unreal and have you ever driven a Challenger? Their ability to corner, while not the world standard, would surprise you. The Challenger is the biggest muscle car. The Challenger is for the Death-Proof types, the people that want to go careening down the road in a huge metal beast looking to scare the crap out of anything in it’s path. There is a reason why Mopar’s in general are used for more TV and Movies than any other brand. Might I just point you in the direction of Nightcrawler, which could have just as easily used a Camaro or Mustang.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lEdwqwOttg
Now as far as the '15 styling vs the '08-'14. I like the 1970 Challenger better than the 1971 so it’s only natural that I like the older generation than the newer version. Both are really nice though and I do like the 2015 a lot.
I say Fatmaro’s Revenge vastly more than I say Hellpig. I could call it the “Lead Sled” after the Vietnam era F-105, which was very fast but not maneuverable. More creative names are possible if you prefer.
If all you want is a car that is very fast in a straight line, has a lot of attitude, and makes a lot of noise then, yes, Tree Hugger’s Bane is an excellent car. I’ve never denied that. But, if you tried to take a corner with it as well as its peers it would go plowing through those same trees like a deranged beaver.
Yet, the density approaches granite.
I would love to, but I’d never buy one, personally. For my money I’d rather have the SRT392. Once again I’m not “into” drag racing and the Hellbeaver is too much performance for the street to really use. If I had choice, I’d still go with a Boss 302.
They actually CAN corner well, all things considered. SRT actually did a pretty good job with the platform taken as a whole. However, the focus is in a performance direction that I don’t really care for, nor the market really seems to respond (so far). If/when they make an SRT Dart that rivals a Focus ST they’ll pique my interest. For now, though, using the old chassis they have and strapping more and more horsepower on it is a band aid to stay relevant.
I’ve said many times in this thread that SRT is very good at making their cars ooze attitude. Unfortunately they don’t wish to back that up on the racetrack, which is the point of this Joke That is SRT.
I’ve liked the styling of the Challenger and Charger since their debut. GM could take a lesson or two from them when it comes to the styling of the Chevy blandneSS.
essay inbound
You missed my point completely, way to go man.
So you call my reference to Dodge in NASCAR invalid on the basis that the NASCAR stock cars don’t have true street counterparts, yet you go a cite GM and their Indycar achievements? Oh yeah, because a car that weighs 1,550lb and is equipped with a 675HP twin-turbo V6 that redlines at over 12,000RPMs is so much more “street” than a Sprint Cup car…
I feel like Dodge views racing as a “hobby” and less of a “lifestyle,” so to speak. They’ll race when they want to race, let them think for themselves.
Well the fact that Viper sales are up more than %100 thanks to that $15K price drop obviously means things are looking bad for the Viper, right? As long as there’s people that want supercar performance and reasonable liveability at a far lower price point than similar cars in its class, the Viper will remain. Stop being a negative Nancy…
Notice how those companies that you listed have almost always been involved in racing? It’s who they are. Dodge doesn’t have to be like them just to make you happy.
Ever consider that maybe Dodge/SRT only race when they want to test or learn something with their cars, and that their pulling out is due to them having found what information they were looking for?
Gee, you really do hate at least one thing about every car company out there, don’t you?
According to you. Evidently, not according to Dodge themselves.
WOW! It does what a muscle car is SUPPOSED to do, but not what a track car is supposed to do. Shocker! It’s almost like they weren’t trying to make a track car at all! Oh wait…
Hey! Me too! Oh, you think I’m joking? Here, I originally wrote this up back in September…
No, I’ve said far more than that, but it appears that any point I make that you don’t have a comeback for you simply ignore. Oh well, trolls be trolling…
See my previous response: “…it appears that any point I make that you don’t have a comeback for you simply ignore. Oh well, trolls be trolling…” You made this thread solely to get a reaction from any SRT fans. Now you’ve got it, and you pretend it wasn’t what you wanted? You’re a funny man you… I hate it when people feel the need to talk trash about car companies just for the sake of talking trash. The way I see it, that’s exactly what you’ve been doing this entire time.
No, we don’t want to hear your “creative names,” we want you to knock it off. Nearly all of us are here because we love ALL cars. None of us care to hear someone negatively talk about any car in any way. I hear enough complaining elsewhere, I don’t want to also hear it on the Forza forums.
That is the ENTIRE POINT of a muscle car, why do you seem to not grasp that? SRT didn’t set out to make the fastest track car, they set out to make the most powerful muscle car. The Hellcat engine produces more than 707HP right off the lot, which means the Challenger Hellcat and Charger Hellcat are the most powerful mass-production muscle cars you can buy. Sure, you can go have Shelby build you a 1000, but that’s not a mass-produced car, that’s an upgrade package to an existing car. SRT more than accomplished what they set out to do, not what other people think they should’ve done.
Okay, so you’ve never driven a Challenger, yet you apparently know so much about how “badly” they handle… Please tell me more about your imaginary driving experience that you repeatedly choose to reference. If you’re gonna be pretending that you have personal experience with these cars and know how they all perform, then I’ve driven the Chevrolet ZL1, Challenger Hellcat, and Boss 302. In Forza Motorsport 4. You know what I found out? The ZL1, Hellcat, and Boss 302 all perform nearly identically. The ZL1 has more reasonable levels of power so it’s easier to drive, the Hellcat is extremely quick if you have any level of throttle control, and the Boss 302 is just happy to take you around the track. Surprise surprise, it just comes down to preference and personal driving style. Personally, I prefer the Hellcat because it has more potential than the ZL1 and Boss 302 when driven properly, whereas the ZL1 and Boss 302 run similar lap times whether or not you’re trying hard.
The Hellcat does have those 2 separate keys if you can’t handle all of the power. If the 500HP is still too much, why would you buy a muscle car to begin with?
So why do you think it’s funny to constantly refer to them as heavy, uncontrollable beasts? Why do you keep contradicting yourself by saying they handle poorly and then turn right around and say they handle well?
Uh, I don’t know if you noticed, but the Hellcat pre-orders are through the roof. Heck, the Challenger Hellcat VIN700001 fetched $825,000 at auction. Rick Hendrick bought it. A GM guy bought an SRT product. In comparison, at that same auction the Camaro Z/28 VIN #3 sold for $147,500, and the 2015 Mustang Limited Edition sold for $170,000. Yeah, the market hasn’t responded and Hellcat sales sure are bad, aren’t they?
A Dart SRT-4 is nearly a given, I have a feeling it’ll show up soon. But then again, why should they bother? I’m sure people like you will just have to find some little, irrelevant thing to complain about…
If the Hellcat’s a band aid, it’s a very good one. Actually, forget a band aid, it’s a freaking healing potion. Again, SRT set out to make the most-powerful production muscle car, NOT the fastest production track car. If GM and Ford wanna spend a bunch of time and resources on making track cars, go right ahead. Just because SRT hasn’t stripped everything useful out of a Challenger and put a boat load of engineering into it just to make it do something the average person probably won’t do with it, doesn’t mean it’s irrelevant. The Challenger and Charger are SRT’s muscle cars. The Viper T/A and Viper ACR are SRT’s track cars. Have you forgotten what kinds of lap times the Viper SRT-10 ACR ran? Let’s consult the phrase of the day, shall we… “Lap Record.” You know what SRT is bringing to SEMA? A Viper SRT ACR. I think you can imagine what’s going to happen once that thing hits production…
Are we really holding a measuring contest now? Very well… It’s longer and wider by a few of inches. (Oh, the innuendos!) And if I remember correctly, typically a larger wheelbase equals better handling, so how is that a negative thing?
I’d like to see what study you’ve pulled that information from…
I’ll agree with you there. But I’d also like add something; maybe it’s because people like Mopars, they’re affordable to the average person, they’re well-built, they have good performance, and they’re just straight up awesome vehicles?
That’s their freaking choice. A car company doesn’t absolutely have to race just to build street cars. How many Jeeps do you see in motorsport? Probably not very many. Yet, they’re a very successful car company, and they’re very good at what they do. But keep pretending your own want to see cars race should be the number one priority of Dodge/SRT…
Hey hey, keep on topic! This is an SRT-hate thread, not an “I hate every car company out there and I wanna anger everybody” thread!
Keep 'em coming, I’m not quitting until a mod asks me to.
Then explain it to me again if I missed it. In a defacto spec series, which NASCAR is, it’s hard to tell if the on track performance of the car is do to the car itself or how it was built. Well run big budget teams generally have greater reliability even running identical cars.
Hey, you brought up NASCAR. I simply said that on track performance of a stock car has nothing to do with the engineering skill of the manufacturer but instead the team and the driver. You have yet to disprove this. And in a topic dealing with the inconsistent effort of SRT in racing referencing a championship win by Dodge in NASCAR back in 2012 doesn’t really do you any favors. With regards to Indy car I simply mentioned them to cover the breadth of a rival manufacturer (in this case GM) in motorsports. I did not say that Indy car was production based.
That would be nice with they weren’t trying to sell people their products. A company that brands itself Street and Racing Technology should, by logic anyway, actually race their products.
A 200% increase of 1 is 2, numbers have a fun way of working like that.
And I said before, the Viper is hampered in the market by not having a automatic transmission. Love manuals or hate them, the people willing to put up with them is a relatively small niche. Several manufacturers don’t even make cars with a manual transmission anymore. So the Viper is not “reasonable livable” for a large numbers of buyers. Considering the Viper had its price cut while Porsche, Corvette, Ferrari, and GTR are raising their prices it’s pretty safe to say the Viper doesn’t have a very strong position in the market.
But it would certainly help me and people like me to consider buying one of their products in the future. Reputation is built by having consistent performance against one’s rivals.
Ever consider that the market is always evolving and that to stay stagnant in product improvement is suicide?
Nah, can’t complain about Mazda. They know who they are and do what they do.
Yes, that’s why we are having this discussion, because I think racing should be at the heart of a company that calls itself Street and Racing technology.
And considering that the Challenger has never come close to the sales of Camaro or Mustang, its street cred as a high horsepower muscle car doesn’t seem to be overcoming its other deficiencies in the market.
Umm, there are only 79 pages there.
What are these points? List them and I’ll respond to each one.
I made the thread title, such as it is, to provoke enough interest to start a discussion, which we are in now. SRT fans could have agreed with me that they are upset that the Viper is no longer racing. You don’t agree with me, so we are talking it out.
I don’t appear to fit the context you want to shoehorn me into (hating SRT, trolling, whatever). Just because I don’t fit an easily attackable position doesn’t mean I’m changing my mind. It DOES mean that I’m either not conveying my ideas very well or you don’t understand them.
Thanks, it’s not very easy 
I simply said SRT (and by extension Dodge) is inconsistent in their racing efforts. That is a fact, one you actually agree with. How is that trash talking?
I thought you said I was funny?
…How do you know why everyone else is here? Personally, I think the forums, in all sections, are quite dead. This is currently the most active thread in “General Automotive.”
I’ve said several times that it is an excellent car for what it set out to do, however, it’s nothing else. Other performance cars in the market aren’t as one dimensional.
Yes, all they cared about is meeting their horsepower target. That has never been in dispute. But when other performance car makers say they could match or beat the Hellbeaver’s hp number, but saw diminishing returns in total performance for doing so, it makes SRT seem…“immature.”
I’ve never spoken of the Hellbeaver’s…or by extension, Challenger’s driving experience because I have never driven them. I did, however, say that it is the heaviest car in its class…because it is. The Hellbeaver also has less tire than the ZL1 or GT500. The entire Hellbeaver media campaign has consisted of smoky burnouts and drag strip runs. Initial media reviews have claimed that it handles similarly to “everyday” Challengers, which are not know for their good handling (as compared to Camaro and Mustang). So by physics and first hand accounts (albeit not my own) it is pretty safe to say that the Hellbeaver approaches a corner with the same care as a landing 747 (hyperbole).
How in the world did I miss the Hellbeaver DLC add on for Forza 4?
How well Forza 4 replicates the performance of cars with each other is beyond the point of this thread. Personally I think it does a pretty good job. But since I don’t base my opinions of cars on videogames any further discussion on that is superfluous.
I don’t really see the point of two keys since the throttle is not an on off switch. And I don’t want (just) a muscle car, which is why I’ve never been interested in buying one. To more elaborately answer that question, as I’ve said before, I’ve love to drive a Hellbeaver, but I have no interest in owning one. Just like there are scores of women I’d love to have sex with, but very few I’d like to actually live with. Owning a car has many more parameters and issues than just driving one for fun. One of those issues is where you live. I currently live in the North East US. And if there is one thing about that area of the country it is high population density. There is no stretch of road I can think of anywhere near where I live that I could “stretch the legs” of a 700hp car without either crashing into traffic or going to jail. There are a couple of drag strips near me, but as I’ve said many times drag racing doesn’t interest me for a number of reasons. The other option is doing some track driving (which I plan to do either next year or the year after, depending on circumstance), but a Challenger, really any Challenger, is not the best weapon for that. Also, due to winter, I’d need a beater anyway, so the extra size of the Challenger is wasted on me since I’d have a more practical car to fall back on.
Now if I lived on Florida or New Mexico a hellbeaver looks more appealing and could be my only car, but I’d probably get a GT500, since it appeals to me more (but that’s neither here nor there).
It handles well of a (relatively) narrow tired very heavy performance car. Lighter, better tired Mustangs and Camaros are superior. I’m quite certain that a Challenger could out handle a sport truck or SUV for instance.
The Challenger is a distant third in the market, and as I said before I wanted to wait a bit before addressing of the Hellbeaver moved the needle at all. Performance cars generally have very strong sales in their first year or two then drop off rapidly after that. It’s too early to say if the Hellbeaver will experience this drop off and to what degree.
I miss the Neon SRT as well as the Cobalt SS. Both SRT and GM should leave just Ford to show Europe and Japan how a hot hatch is supposed to be done.
So you agree with me SRT could or didn’t want to put a “boat load” of engineering into the Challenger platform and instead just gave it a lot of horsepower. What’s worse is that its not really any faster than the GT500 (driver’s race), and doesn’t have the 500’s solid rear axle for more strength and a better drag strip launch. SVT showed everyone how it was done years before the Hellbeaver was even conceived.
I look forward to the next ACR. I hope it shows up in more than SCCA competition this time.
You’re not quoting me, so I won’t answer. But I will say a larger wheelbase does not equal a better handling car. A short wheelbase lotus Elise will rip apart most cars on an autocross.
I don’t know, ask him. I didn’t say that.
Or SRT paid for the cars inclusion. Bumblebee isn’t a Camaro because it won a popularity contest.
I didn’t know Jeep marketed itself as a racing brand. News to me.
No their number one priority should be street cars that could and are raced successfully, hence Street and Race Technology. Now that I think about it, what new and unique technology does SRT even have?
Since when was the thread about that?
Only because you asked me nicely
Yes, having a bigger budget helps, but my point is success is not solely down to the team and driver. Hendrick has a giant budget, yet they still had mechanical issues that year. The manufacturer still plays a role, how ever small it may be. The 0 Dodge engine failures that year was thanks to both Penske’s building techniques and the part’s SRT Motorsports provided. Without Penske the engine can’t be built, and without SRT there’s no parts to build the engine. Again, thanks to assistance from SRT, Penske had a successful 2012 season.
If SRT hadn’t provided engine parts for Penske to use, Penske would’ve had to make everything from the ground up. SRT was a key part of Penske’s success 2012, it just wasn’t something that got brought up a lot. If Penske would’ve built their own engines using solely their own parts they would have still done very well, but there’s a chance they could’ve had more mechanical issues, which would have given them a much smaller chance at winning the championship that year.
I’m not out to prove that SRT is consistent with racing (because they’re aren’t, I’m not disagreeing with you there), I’m just saying that when they do race they typically have good results. Considering they’re in and out on a regular basis, they’re quite good at jumping right back into competing and succeeding. I’m not too sure that a ton of other companies could do the same thing and have similar results.
Fair enough. Still, I really don’t know how big of a role GM plays in building the Chevrolet Indycar other than the engine, which just so happens to be what Dodge/SRT were involved in with NASCAR. Chevrolet provided Indycar engines for successful Indycars, SRT provided NASCAR engines for successful NASCARs. In both series, the manufacturers still play a small role in building successful racecars.
Agreed. Although I’m not entirely sure Chrysler really thought the SRT name through very much. If I remember correctly, they were even using the SRT badge before they had determined what SRT even stood for. They choose Street and Racing Technology, and unfortunately, they haven’t been very interested in racing lately. Oh well, should they go and change their name just to fix some irony?
Cool, you can do basic math. Am I supposed to look at you in awe now or something? This past September 108 Vipers were sold, compared to 45 from the year before. Sales are up %140 as of September of 2014. While it’s still a long shot from the Corvette, sales are up. And what’s the fun of having a sports car if everyone and their mother has one? I can’t tell you how many Corvettes I’ve seen, yet I’ve only seen 3 Vipers in my entire life. No disrespect meant to the Corvette, but I personally see the Viper as a much more special car.
If the Viper is ever offered with an automatic transmission the purists will cry bloody murder. From what I’ve seen, the majority of the people that are looking to buy a Viper want a “basics” supercar. The average person can’t handle a Viper, yet a good driver will dominate with one, and that’s one of their main selling points. You even the playing field by making the Viper extremely accessible and suddenly you end up with a Corvette. They’re different cars for different people, there’s no reason to make them the same.
I’m aware of that, but the Viper is a driver’s car, not a rich person’s toy. It doesn’t need an automatic because that would take away the entire point of having a Viper, a back-to-the-basics enthusiast’s car.
What supercar really is? At least the Viper has a decent amount of trunk space for a supercar…
The sad fact of the matter is that a lot of people now days want computerized cars that handle the hard parts of driving for them, not a car that they actually have to put effort into driving.
Serious question: are you in a position to afford to buy a Viper right now?
The Viper’s main rival is the Corvette, and it does a pretty good job of competing with it in terms of performance. Further along you’ve got cars like the Ferrari 458, the McLaren MP4-12C, the Lamborghini Huracan, etc., all of which the Viper can more than hold its own against.
How are they not improving aside from not building track cars? Ever since the Fiat merger Chrysler has been making some very good changes and improvements. SRT may not be doing everything imaginable at this time, but where they do put their efforts they do well.
So you actually do like at least one car company? Wow, I never thought I’d see the day…
There’s also the Street part in there, and I’d say they’re doing a very nice job in that area at this time.
The current-gen Camaro gained a lot of new fans thanks to the Transformers movies, and the Mustang has always been a nice, affordable, accessible option for performance. Simply because Dodge hasn’t done a very good job of promoting the new Challenger (aside from nostalgia-based commercials) it’s going to have less sales. Regardless, there’s roughly a 2,000 unit difference from the Camaro to Mustang, and Mustang to Challenger sales figures. While the Challenger may be selling less than the Camaro and Mustang, it’s not by a massive margin.
I’d covered everything I’d wanted to cover in that wishlist. Regardless, it’s 79 more pages than you’ve shown out of your claimed 900.
No, I agree that I wish SRT had more involvement in racing. But does it bother me? No, that’s their own choice to make. What I don’t agree with are your inferred accusations that SRT makes inferior products. If you really don’t believe that SRT is a bad company, stop talking negatively about them. Most of your posts are so vague in terms of your opinion on something that I’m forced to assume what your point is, and then because you never really made a point you tell me that I misunderstood your posts. Hey, try being more clear and specific instead of skirting around what you’re trying to say so that people can start understanding what you’re trying to say.
I wouldn’t call pulling facts out of thin air to support your accusations a difficult to attack position.
Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!
You took a sarcastic comment as a compliment? Boy, things really are going well in this thread…
Please see: “Hellpig…” “Hellpig…” “Hellpig…” oh, and “Hellbeaver.” You’d think you’d recall your own posts…
I know you’re being sarcastic, but come on man…
Seeing as how a long-time forum member is also starting to talk bad about a car company just after he told us he didn’t like it when people hate on Ford, I’m apparently wrong on the assumption that most of us here love all cars. I guess it’s all just fanboys and haters here, no one willing to just have a plain ol’ positive conversation. I guess I may as well look into leaving this wonderful “community” if all anyone wants to ever do on here is complain… And yes, I know it’ll be ironic that I’ve said that when I eventually end up banned on here. Oh well, sorry I too call it like I see it and don’t put up with people that anger me and/or constantly talk negatively…
Does it need to be anything else? Yay, Chevrolet and Ford made some Camaros and Mustangs that can run track records all day long, good on them. It doesn’t mean Dodge has to follow.
Maybe one day SRT will choose to strip down a Hellcat, put bigger tires on it, and set it up as a track car. But for now, they’ve accomplished what they wanted to accomplish. They never said they were going to do anything more, and they never said they were going to do anything less.
Yes, I know it’s heavy. Still, only by a couple hundred pounds (compared to the ZL1). If the person driving the Challenger is any good, that extra weight is going to be negligible.
The smaller tires I actually view as a mistake on SRT’s part. Hopefully in the future they’ll give it a little bit more tread. Still, all things considered the 275s do their job surprisingly well.
It’s not a DLC, I just went ahead and made a replicar. Before you go and say “that doesn’t count,” I’ve also gone and done a ZL1 replicar using the SS that performs exactly the same as the real DLC ZL1 in-game. It’s quite likely my Hellcat replicar performs extremely close to the real thing, and in the hands of a good driver, it’s quick.
My reason for bringing it up is that neither of us have actually driven these cars. Neither of us truly know how they perform, aside from what we’ve heard from others. FM4 is a good way of getting a general idea of how they would drive in real life, and being as I’ve driven all 3 in-game I have to say they’re all pretty much equal. Is it a different story in real life? No idea, but it’s as close as I’m going to get to knowing.
The Camaros and Mustangs may have better handling, but it’s not as big as a difference as everyone makes it out to be. The ZL1, Boss 302, and GT500 can all still go sideways, but the Hellcat has bigger power numbers so it’s more noticeable if you drive without regard for it.
From what I’ve gathered, the Camaro sells roughly 9,000 units a month, the Mustang sells roughly 7,500 units a month, and the Challenger sells roughly 6,000 units a month. They all have similar differences in sales relative to the other. It’s not this massive divide like you keep making it out to be. I have nothing to base assumptions of future sales on, so there’s no point in me saying anything about it.
The Neon SRT-4 did a great job of showing up a lot of big time tuner cars. The Focus ST is an amazing car, I’d actually like to have one myself. The Colbat SS I never quite understood, but I have no real reason to dislike it. I don’t know what Chevrolet would come up with now to compete, but I’d like to think a Dart SRT-4 could give the Focus ST a good fight.
The GT500’s solid rear axle was known for being a pain with handling. In terms of a straight up race between the GT500 and the Hellcat, it’d be very close. The GT500 may weigh less, but it still has some handling quirks, and the Hellcat makes just enough power to balance out the weight difference. In a drag race, I wouldn’t be surprised to see a tie. The 2000 SVT Cobra R is one of my favorite cars, I’m well aware of how much of a beast it was in its day.
That’s about all that I’ve got responses for at this time. And I don’t have the time to go and re-read everything I wrote right now, so expect some minor errors…
And that can’t really be proven unless you took a statistically valid number of engines from each manufacturer and built them the exact same way and tested them for mean time between failures. As it turns out Robby Gordon Motorsports, with a Dodge, did have a engine failure.
BTW this is really just a NASCAR issue where the cars are meant to be identical by design. SRT DID have a reliability advantage in Tudor, where it can be assumed that was a combination of car and team.
Or they could have gone to Chevy, Toyota, or Ford like everyone else looking for an engine and stickers.
To the same extent as a saddle is for a triple crown winning jockey
I doubt NASCAR would let them build their own engines, and even if they did they wouldn’t have a performance advantage by the rules anyway.
Considering that’s the point of this thread I don’t see why what I say is such a bone of contention.
BMW, Corvette, Porsche are typically get very strong results when entering a new series.
But Indy does allow some small leeway for the engine builders to get a performance advantage (though they run a spec chassis and tire). In NASCAR manufactures only really get a performance advantage by getting with a powerhouse team, which is why I don’t give much credit to Chevy for win the manufacturers championship in NASCAR for the year in question.
Then that makes them even more of a joke.
Considering that the company doesn’t even exist anymore, I don’t think that is necessary.
Nothing’s stopping you from stepping in line with everyone else.
Viper is not competing with Corvette nor is Corvette competing with Viper. Their market crosses over from time to time, but the companies themselves don’t really target each other…at least not to the extent that Ford, GM, and Ram trucks do.
I really don’t get the exclusivity argument. I really don’t care how many of the same car I see. Frankly, I rather enjoy waving at other corvettes when I drive mine. The feeling of camaraderie I get from corvette drivers of all creeds is greater than the ego stroking from knowing I have the only one.
As are Z06 drivers now that it will be offered with one, but guess what…sales will increase.
And the number of those people is relatively small in the market.
And if SRT plans to still make Vipers in the future they need to branch out from the super hardcore like everyone else…except Lotus, and Lotus isn’t exactly commanding the market either.
All of these cars are rich man’s toys. Don’t delude yourself otherwise. And most don’t want a “toy” that they think is constantly trying to kill them (I’m not saying it is, but that’s the perception).
Yet, has no prestige, no (consistent) racing history, and is overpriced (until recently) for what you get. Not every rich guy that could afford a (formerly) 150K Viper is a great driver, wants a car that is very aggressive all the time, or can even drive a stick. Most of those buyers, so it seems, can’t or won’t drive a stick, and want the ability to brag that they have such and such very expensive fast car, even though they never really drive fast with it.
Now, no, but that doesn’t mean that circumstance can’t change in the future. Supercar manufacturers work basically on brand equity. They hook potential buyers at a young age then bank on them being buyers when they have the means (which is why SRT wanted the Viper included in Forza 4). I’m a corvette guy at heart, though there are several cars that interest me (the new WRX is one such car). I was hooked by corvette when I was much younger playing Need For Speed III, of all things (I was more interested in Vipers before that). I have a used corvette now, and I’ll have a new corvette sometime in the future when it makes financial sense. That is why efforts like racing are important for a brand. People emotionally connect with a product for whatever reason, and then become buyers when they are able, even if the product at that point in time is garbage (see the late 3rd gen Corvette as an example). I am currently considering getting a 3rd gen Camaro solely because a neighbor had a blue IROC when I was a kid, and I thought it was the coolest car ever (it’s what got me into cars).
BTW I was talking about SRT as a whole when I said that. I could buy a Challenger or possibly Dart SRT if I wanted to.
I was talking more of the pony car wars with that point. But the battle between Ford and GM in the last generation was quite fun to watch, Challenger was more of an also ran.
I’m full of surprises.
The October numbers just came out. Year to date Camaro has sold about 75,000. Year to date Challenger has sold 42,500. The Camaro crushes the Challenger in the market, selling more than 50% better. It IS a massive margin, for peer cars at around the same price.
That’s 900 pages of fiction, not internet banter…and I’m not exaggerating. Since I’m not interest in putting one of my books on a public forum, you’ll just have to take my word for it. I don’t care if you do or do not.
I didn’t say SRT makes inferior products. I said that the Viper was delivered to Motortrend’s best driver’s car competition with pieces literally falling off of it, and was a disappointment because it couldn’t soundly defeat the Corvette ZR1. I also called the Hellcat the Hellpig and said it can’t corner as well as its peers due to its weight. Everything else is a product of your imagination.
As I’ve said many times, this topic is about SRT’s inconsistency with racing the products they sell. Any talk of the Hellbeaver is mainly people defending it when I said I wanted to see how the car performed in actually owners hands before I made any judgment. I mentioned the Viper when people asked what The Joke That is SRT Part 1 was about. This thread has truly only been about one thing.
Please list what these facts I’m making up are. What I’ve said, from top to bottom. It is a fact that SRT pulled out of Tudor with no mention of being back. It is a fact that the Hellbeaver is a heavy car. It is a generally considered fact that the Challenger doesn’t handle as well as its peers and there certainly is no track focused version of the car. It is a fact that NASCAR stock cars are basically identical on purpose by the rules. It is a fact that the driver and team in NASCAR is the biggest driver of results. It is a fact that Camaro and Mustang outsell the Challenger by a noticeably large margin.
Every piece of speculation on your part is met by me with, “well see,” or, “who knows,” or deductive logic.
Please let me know which of these facts are in dispute.
I see lots of, “I agree,” with your posts. My ideas seem to be coming across very well. From you it seems like I’m saying the Emperor has no clothes, and you’d wish I refrain from stating the obvious.
Wait that wasn’t a compliment? Were you trying to hurt my feelings? That’s mean.
Tomato tamoto, oh yeah you forgot Tree Hugger’s Bane. I recall I also indirectly called it a “Thunder Beast.” Please don’t take it to personally that the Hellwhale has to metaphorically buy two airline seats for every flight
So you really weren’t complimenting me.
Top Gear is the number one car show in the world and it spends most of its time “trash talking” various cars for light hearted fun. Performance car buyers are tribal by nature, much like sports teams. Talking bad about rivals is part of the game as long as everyone remembers in the end that we’re all car guys (or gals) and to each his own.
I consider the forum dead.
Make sure you go out on top, like SRT when you pick up your football and go home.
If they want to make up a 50% deficient in sales it might be a good idea.
They made a car barely faster than a GT500, several years after the fact. They won’t come out and say it, but that’s the reality of what they produced.
Even if it’s not felt it will burn up the (smaller) tires and brakes faster. Once again, owning a car verse driving a car. When you’re paying around $1,500 to retire your car, like I did my Vette, consumables do become a factor.
I have opinions on this, but it’s an entirely separate thread.
When a Z/28 has corner speeds as high as a Porsche 918 I think there is more difference than you’re letting on.
Read my previous with regards to sales.
It was very fast, took up where the Neon left off in clobbering everyone in SCCA competition. I’d consider buying one if the drivetrain and handling wasn’t attached to a Cobalt.
I mentioned the solid rear with regards to strength and traction for a drag strip launch. The lighter, better tired, better suspended GT500 is the better drag car of the two, if that’s all that you want.
The Cobra R was a great car. As were the 2003 Mustang Cobras.
I was with Chrysler for over 25 years until 2006 and this smells exactly like something the “old” Chrysler would do. Just get their feet wet in something long enough then wimp out. Viper is your halo car and you race your halo car. It’s just what you do. I know Viper has really been struggling for retail sales and I don’t know if that has anything to do with the decision.
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I dont know if yakov was talking to me also or not but.
I bought the 2012 dodge charger in FH1 and in FM4( aka dlc that cost money 
)
so I am a fan of SRT, I like the SRT JEEP, the charger, and well when I saw the SRT VIPER dlc come out for FM4 I got it in 2 seconds (or when my xbox decided to load) And I was really sad when they stopped making the “Dodge” Viper (did not know in till a month after they re-badged it I was like WOOOOOO!
(although on the track I prefer corvette)
“everyone has a right to their opinion, jumping on here and straight up calling SRT garbage is uncalled for.”
And to some people, SRT being garbage is their opinion, and they have that right to it.
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Of course, but I wish they wouldn’t be so brash about it. I love SRT dearly, and it really gets to me when people will seemingly hate on them just for heck of it. Or even worse, simply because they’re blind fans of a rival company. Now according to Wolf and Ritzy themselves, they don’t necessarily hate SRT, but I still get the feeling that they’re overly satisfied with talking about SRT in a negative matter. I don’t understand why…
(Note: This is a defense of SRT in general, not necessarily a jab directed at Wolf or Ritzy.)
What is SRT supposed to do? Build a car with 1,500HP, that weighs 1,000lbs, and produces 3,000lbs of downforce and sell it at $20,995? One of their first tasks was to build a modern AC Cobra. You mean to tell me that the Viper wasn’t a good answer to that? Even today it’s still a great vehicle. Is it outmatched against some other (typically far more expensive, minus the Corvette) supercars? Possibly, but not to the extent that people make it out to be. And it’s an American car that has both power and handling, that’s something to really be proud of (if you’re an American). And in a world where nearly every performance car is aspirated, seeing the Viper utilize a N/A V10 that still manages to put out 645HP is a truly amazing thing. Even Lamborghini’s V10’s are only pushing 602HP.
The Neon SRT-4 was the next major step for SRT, and that also fulfilled its purpose extremely well. Affordable, quick, fun to drive, and easy to modify. Later on they’re putting out far better performing versions of the Charger and Challenger. Heck, even the Jeep Grand Cherokee. The Charger and Challenger are inherently heavy cars, but all things considered, SRT did a very good job of improving them all around. They didn’t just take the common route and strip out everything that made it a car, they managed to give them very respectable performance while also improving liveability (the interiors of SRTs are fantastic). The new Hellcats are more or less there just to close off the HP gap, not necessarily to set new track records. And looking at the typical definition of a musclecar (the most power for the least money possible), the Hellcats have served their purpose remarkably well. And in the event that they take the Camaro Z/28 route and strip out everything possible they’ll also be extremely good track cars.
The Grand Cherokee SRT-8 is, surprisingly, an extremely capable SUV. They managed to keep weight relatively low, give it a considerable amount of power, and were able to give it very nice handling. Oh, and like nearly every SRT out there, it’s still completely liveable. And if they ever decide to put the Hellcat engine in one…
When they choose to compete in organized races they often do very well. Dominate? Not necessarily, but they’re still competing. Oh, and how did they exit NASCAR? By winning the 2012 Sprint Cup championship. How did they exit TUDOR? By winning the 2014 driver’s and team’s championships (they even tied Porsche in manufacturer’s points). And while I am disappointed by their recent lack of motivation to race, it’s nice to see that when they do choose to do it they’re typically quite successful.
I can go on and on about what SRT has done right, but what have they done wrong? Personally, I see that SRT has done exactly what they’ve set out to do; make better performing versions of Chrysler vehicles without sacrificing liveability, not necessarily to destroy every other car on the planet. Okay, with that in mind, what have they failed at that? Seriously, give some examples. If they’re legitimate reasons and you’re willing to type them out, I’ll gladly read them and consider them.
Tl;dr: SRT isn’t a joke. The joke is the people that fail to appreciate what SRT’s accomplished. (Take that lightly guys, it’s just a play on the thread’s title.)
I’m not satisfied about talking about SRT in a negative manner. In the first Joke That is SRT I was quite annoyed that SRT delivered a Viper to Motortrend’s Best Driver’s Car competition that had mismatched tires and pieces literally falling off it it. I believe even the driver’s seat broke…or something to that effect. Sorry, but for a mainline manufacturer to deliver a car in that condition to a major member of the motoring press is a joke.
In the second Joke That is SRT I’m quite annoyed that they pulled out of the premier road racing series in the US with no statement that they plan to race the Viper anywhere else. If Ferrari pulled out of F1 because they haven’t won a manufacturer’s championship since the Schumacher era, trust me, I would make a Joke That is Ferrari thread too (I’d have more material as well, since I actually DON’T like that company…the cars are a different matter).
It’s not a bad car, but the market for AC Cobra type cars is very small. At launch the car was too expensive. It is also stylistically stagnant in its latest version (though I think it is very good looking). And couldn’t defeat a Corvette ZR1 without resorting to the TA model and even then only just. Ralph Gillies, in one of his more epically stupid moments, said the only reason the Viper lost was because pro race car driver Randy Probst was afraid of it. I mean come on.
American cars have handled well for generations, it’s nothing new. Lest we forget the 911 handled so amazingly well into a ditch that Porsche was actually sued. The real test nowadays is bandwidth. Or in other words, the ability for a car to be docile at one moment and very aggressive in the next.
The Neon SRT is from SRT’s glory years. It’s great name doesn’t deserve to be tarnished by the joke its parent company has become.
And other than being large comfortable cars that have large amounts of power, they do nothing else as well as their direct competitors. I will give them that they have large amounts of “attitude.”
Fatmaro’s Revenge (also known as the Z/28) laughs at the ridiculousness of your statement. GM performance cars transformed from being excellent numbers generators (all the way back to the Corvette C2) to the well regarded total performance beasts that they are now when GM built the Milford road course (also known as the “Lutzring”) way back in around 2005. The ability to have a home race track to get that last 10% out of chassis goes a long way to explaining why each successive performance model has gotten better than the last. Lastest comparisons show that the Camaro 1LE humiliates an equivalent model 2015 Mustang GT around a race track. It takes more than just stripping weight and adding sticky tires.
NASCAR has nothing to do with SRT and has nothing to do with their road cars, despite what NASCAR wants Bubba Ray to think.
The Viper team was given every possible chance from IMSA to win a championship. That doesn’t bother me, as compared to the FrankenBMW that has a V8 though the road car does not, but it can’t be denied that racing, ALL of racing, is a political farce. But to put things in perspective the Corvette team, after early teething troubles, went on to win four races straight. Afterwhich, they were penalized by balance of performance to be the heaviest car in the field with the smallest restrictor. The Viper was not the best car in the field (the Ferrari 458 is, it just is run by a crap team), nor was SRT the best team in their class (that goes to either Corvette Racing or Rahal Letterman).
They obviously haven’t done well enough to remain a “stand alone” company, nor does even their flagship car (viper) command a price premium. Say what you will about Porsche, but people are lining up to pay top dollar for their products. Same thing with Ferrari and Mercedes. Not so much Lotus, Aston Martin, and SRT.
SRT tried to play in the Porsche world with the Viper and is now price cutting it to survive. The Charger/Challenger are old chassis that have to be given large amounts of horsepower to stay relevant in the market, and even so, still sell only at a fraction of their competitors (though I believe the SRT Charger outsells the Chevy SS). Real world the Hellpig is not much faster than the GT500 and has to resort to “NHRA Certified” quarter mile times on a drag strip with drag radials to seem impressive. Ford’s response when asked how they’ll deal with the Hellpig is that they, “Are taking Mustang in a different direction,” I imagine in more of a total performance sports car realm than a smoke generating thunderbeast. The hemi V8 is “heavily influenced” by the GM LSx small blocks, but not as sophisticated. When Corvette Racing was asked do they mind that SRT is allowed to run a 8L V10 by IMSA and they run a 5.5LV8 their response was basically, “their motor is very inefficient, we see no need to protest.” When asked about making the C7 Z06 more powerful, GM basically said, “the chassis can’t handle anymore (to go faster), so there’s no point.” SRT, by contrast, is happy with the Hellpig doing nothing other than producing large amounts of smoke. SRT seems to have missed the memo. The days of one dimensional “crude” performance cars are long gone. It’s unfortunate that they don’t seem to have the resources to produce anything other than that.
Side note: I consider this a “light” conversation. This is about opinion, not facts.
I could let it bother be every time someone bashes Ford, of which I love a lot myself, but in the end, it just isn’t worth it. I’m pretty direct with a lot of my own opinions, It’s just how and who I am. It’ll never change. Nor will others opinions or ways of expressing them change just because it upsets someone else. Just let it be water of a ducks back and move on. Because end of the day, their opinion should never affect you in such a manner. It’ll make your days go by a lot better.
Your Opinion, Their Opinion, they will always be different and expressed differently. Tis the way of the world.
I am so confused right now… Okay Wolf, so you don’t hate SRT, but you made a thread with a title that gives the impression you do… I want to try to reply, but I don’t even know what we’re talking about anymore.
Verruckt, I don’t like it when people bash any car company to be honest. I actually quite like Ford. Especially the GT, as well as the drastic changes they’ve made to their current lineup. Why people bash them is even more puzzling to me than why people bash SRT… Still, the entire point of forums is to discuss various topics. This thread originally seemed to be anti-SRT, so I came in full out pro-SRT, then everyone shifted to being neutral, and now I’m just confused…
Well guys, until I can figure out what this thread’s truly about I won’t be posting here again. Good day.
No I don’t hate SRT, never said it, never meant to imply it.
My thread title was meant to imply that SRT can’t be taken seriously.
In The Joke That is SRT Part II the main point is the laughable racing footprint of a brand that literally calls itself Street and Racing Technology. Most performance brands rightly realize that for performance credibility and product development, the car they produce MUST be raced somewhere. Porsche is by far the best brand at this. They make customer race cars to factory prototype Le Mans racers. Ferrari and McLaren compete in F1 and sports car racing. GM competes at all levels of sports car racing, they even have Cadillac in World Challenge. Even Ford, with just the Mustang as their performance car, makes a customer road racing chassis, and competes in World Challenge, SCCA, Continental Challenge, among others.
Where is SRT??? Does the Challenger even compete in NHRA? (I don’t follow drag racing). Even Kia, Kia of all people(!!!) has a racing program. I’m watching the SCCA runoffs, and there is a Audi S4, of all things, even an Acura TL, but no Challenger??? Yes, there were a couple of old ACR Vipers but that was it. Now they pull out of Tudor, the most visible sports car racing series in the US? I mean seriously, outside of the customer GT3 Vipers they build, they are no way approaching the kind of visibility a premier sports car brand should have.