Sweeping turns, what am I doing wrong?

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Hey all, looking for some pointers to help with my technique. Any advice would be appreciated.

Here’s the deal… Its D class, Bernese Alps Festival (my favorite course, by far), and I’m driving a Mini. I’m currently ranked 1,169, so I’m not horrible, but there has to be a way to improve what I’m doing. I’ve been trying to beat a rival and we’re neck and neck throughout almost all of the race. I can’t beat him though. My best time is .004 slower than his. Its so frustrating to lose by that incredibly close of a margin. We are both driving Minis so its a pretty fair comparison. That’s what’s frustrating, I would get it if it were a different car that was just better on the course (Celicas are, I know, but I’m worse in them). His technique is just very good and mine is obviously lacking. What’s happening is I must have more power in my tune than he does. Its Foot’s open source tune from the forum that I have tweaked to better suit my driving ability. I am a good bit faster up and the down the somewhat straight hills. However, he is killing me on the sweeping turns.

The first long one at the start of the race, he gets inside and gets the lead. Coming around that easy corner (the 2nd turn) and then up the first hill , I catch him right at the apex. I then pass him going down the hill. I am clearly faster through the stretch leading up to the next turn. Then that uphill turn with the leaves on the right shoulder is my Achilles heel. I am ALWAYS in front at the start of that hill. I can’t seem to get my car to stay inside on that turn though. That’s really the turn that is causing me to lose the most. I’m out to the right and he is all the way to the left. My car just keeps being forced out wide. It even is when I do seem to get it inside for a portion of the turn, but the end of the turn forces me out again. I must lose 1.5 seconds of ground to him every stinking time on that turn. If I slow down enough to keep my car all the way inside like he does, the race is over. He just blows past me and I don’t even get close to him again.

He catches me right before the tunnel entrance because I’m fighting as hard as I can to get my car to stay away from the guard rail on the left because I am wide there again. He takes a slight lead through the tunnel and up the hill. I actually do pretty well with the sharp downhill turn right after the tunnel. I take that turn more inside than he does and either pull even with him or pass him slightly. We’re neck and neck at the bottom of that hill usually and I always have more momentum. I take the lead going up the last steep hill and then through the quick turns leading up to the last sweeping turn. He catches me at the very end of that last long turn though, has more momentum coming out of it, and passes me going downhill toward the finish line. I start to catch him again right before the line, but always fall short. I’ve tried everything I can think of, but can’t duplicate what he is doing. He takes the very inside on all 3 sweeping turns that are giving me fits, but doesn’t seem to lose a bit of speed, in fact, he picks up speed. Me, well inertia keeps forcing me out wide so I’m forced to cover more ground. If I follow his exact path, I lose so much speed that he blows my doors off.

Just seems that no matter what I do, my car won’t turn in. I assume its technique on my part, but wondering if it could be something I could adjust in the tune that would help. Almost seems as if I could get the car to turn in just the slightest bit more, I’d get him. I’ve tried adjusting for more handling, but that makes me fall even further behind so I keep going back to a flaw in my technique. I’m about 95% sure its my technique. If I could take the same path as him, yet not lose all of my speed, I’d beat him by 3 or 4 seconds easily. Probably put me in the top 200 or so too. I swear, every lap is almost a carbon copy of the one before it and I have run a ton of them. The only way I finish ahead of him is if I run a dirty lap by taking one or two of those 3 turns too far wide and keep all of my speed. Obviously, that doesn’t count though.

The above is all D class. In C class, I use a Mercedes and I’m in the top 1,000 (If I remember correctly). I seem to handle the turns ever so slightly better in that car, so that is the only thing making me doubt the car and not my technique. My personal best is three seconds faster with a C class Mercedes compared to a C class Mini. Still think its my technique though and that’s why I’m asking here.

Any thoughts?

2

I only read the first 2 paragraphs… but its your build. Your build is not suited for the track the way his is. Its quite obvious that if you are losing that much time in the sweepers than grip is important.

Are you sure it has nothing to do with technique? Maybe he is just taking those corners better… holding the correct amount of throttle through the corner whereas you may be hamfisting gas brake and not as smooth. That track requires smooth inputs or u just wont make the grade.

3

I’m almost positive that its my technique, that’s why I’m asking. Like I said, If I feather the controls and follow his EXACT line, I can’t compete with him. I’m not dreadful and do know how to play the game some. I’m just at a point where I am finding it really hard to advance to the next level.

I was using Foot’s tune that gives you a 5.6 or 5.7 handling rating (forget which) and got to around 2500 with it and ran into a wall for my skillset. I altered it for more speed and jumped up a little over 1,300 spots. What I’m using now is still a 5.4 handling rating, so its not like the car is all over the track. Its just the sweepers that are getting me, I’m pretty sure I’m going about them wrong, and I’m asking for advice.

4

First thing to do - in my opinion - is compare apples-to-apples: you need to see how you stack up against someone using the exact same setup / tune, not just “same car, about the same stats.”

If you post your setup here - parts and tuning parms - or if you share it in the game, I’ll be glad to run some laps with it and see what’s what. I’m sure several other folks will be glad to do that as well.

  • Don Ente
5

Thanks for the comments. First, its not about my ranking on the leaderboards. I’m just using this as a way to improve. I just checked and I was actually ranked at 1123. Now, its 1133 at the moment, seems 10 people have passed me in the last 24 hours. Last I checked, the highest ranked Mini on the Leaderboard is only at 354 out of 177,863, so I’m very much aware that its not the right car for the track. I’m still new and trying to hone my skills in cars that I am comfortable with. Celicas dominate that leaderboard, but I just don’t do well in them. I watch this rival I am running against and my honest reaction is, WOW, this good is way better than me. His time says that he is only marginally better, but I can’t match his line. He’s beating me with a slower car because he can drive much better than I can.

I don’t honestly care where I rank. Its just that I know there is a good bit of room for improvement for me. My ignorance of how to accomplish that is showing though. I’m currently ranked ahead of 99.4% on that leaderboard. I would have been making this post if I had only been ahead of 29.4% on that leaderboard. Those three turns are driving me crazy, the rest of the track is either gun it and go, or I have my technique in good shape already.

Sounds good, I’m going to try and work on that and see where it gets me. Thank you, that’s exactly what I’m looking for.

Looks to me like my rival is running Foot’s tune. Which is a great tune, BTW. What I did was alter it by lessening the tires and trans, adding a supercharger and taking off weight with a race driveline and street flywheel. Otheriwse, its still Foot’s tune. I don’t have it all in front of me at the moment, so I will just share it in a little while. I haven’t done that because I don’t want to take credit for something that isn’t mine. The changes I made allow me to go a lot faster on that track without sacrificing grip. They really help on Catalunya and Spa too. The changes don’t help on Laguna though. I’m trying to experiment with changing tunes for different tracks and having some success at it.

6

D class and this track are all about maintaining momemtum. You need to be on the power almost constantly but at the right time. Your racing line is very important ,where your drifting wide at the sweeper is because your understeering. You have either took the wrong line into the corner, gone into the corner to fast or got back on the gas to earlly. Its a tricky corner and its downhill braking which makes it easier to lock up your brakes and run wide. Try watching some fast guys replays to see how they do it. I used a civic type r for this track with is better suited and placed in top 30 with the mini you are using(i have the same tune) Its a grip tune thats not really suited to this track, it does not have the speed but could still go top 100. Maybe

7

I haven’t seen the leaderboard for this so I don’t know how many people are ranked on there but it’s probably at least tens of thousands. I think I normally see at least 40,000 on a leaderboard, and usually quite a bit more; sometimes hundreds of thousands and I remember one had over a million. Even if it was just 40,000 or so, 1,000 or thereabouts would be roughly the top 2.5%, ahead of 97.5% of other players. I’m not sure who went around telling folks you need to get into the top 500 just to be above average because they’re full of it. You don’t have to be faster than 99.99% of players just to hit “above average.” Top-1,000 isn’t just decent or “not horrible” unless there’s only 2,000 people ranked on that board.

8

Mini = FWD.

It sounds to me that you are entering the corners as if the car was RWD. With FWD, one has to anticipate front end wash therefore the racing line must be adjusted to compensate for it.

For FWD, I would suggest entering the sweeping corners a little later (by about 2 ~3 car lengths) thereby taking a wide entry arc. Then take a late apex but you will be on throttle before you get to the apex.

Late entry + late apex SHOULD align the car more tightly for the exit which should allow you to stay full throttle AND stay on the track. This is a typical cornering technique that I use for FWD/AWD.

9

I have just checked out your replay and ran some laps of my own in the same car. Whats really killing your time is the automatic gearbox your lines not to bad at all. I ran the full aero tune from foot in 2.05.8 and no aero in 2.05.1 which would be top 250 and i went full beans all the way round. Even went flat through turn 5 right hander before tunnel where you said you struggled. It was’nt your driving there, it was because the auto gearbox had you bellow the torque band coming out of turn 4 and lost you a lot of time. I would seriously recomend you learn manual and clutch or at least manual only to start with and you would easily beat his time. Your lines are much better than your rivals he has a big advantage over you
with manual/clutch. Good luck

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Ah - I meant to follow-up with:

“and make sure you tell us what settings you’re using - ABS / TCS / STM / auto- manual- manual+clutch, etc”

Transmission can make a big difference… the other settings, not so much.

But again, when trying to figure out “what I am doing wrong,” always go for apples-to-apples comparison.

  • Don Ente
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I’m trying but arthritis is coming on in my hands and I really find that using the clutch is incredibly difficult for me from a dexterity standpoint. Ironically, in the real world, I’d much rather drive a manual and can drive them really well. Just can’t find a way to make it work in the game just yet. Certainly haven’t given up, just need to find that right combination that works for me. Glad to know that my lines aren’t as bad as I thought they were… That replay you watched is my best lap obviously. I can’t seem to quite duplicate what I did there, but I’m sure that’s true for all of us and our “best” laps, isn’t it?

Thanks for watching the replay and offering your thoughts, its much appreciated.

Yeah, I should have added it… I have TCS and STM off, but ABS and Auto are on. I haven’t driven a car without ABS since the late 80’s or early 90’s and that adjustment isn’t coming too quickly for me in the game. I keep locking them up with ABS off. I’m kind of like an old dog that doesn’t learn new tricks all that well. I don’t give up though, so I will eventually get all of the assists turned off.

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I wouldn’t worry too much about turning off ABS. You can learn how to break properly while still leaving the ABS on as a sort of safety net when you get the breaking wrong. Just focus on breaking as hard as you can without having the ABS come on, or only coming on a little.

As for the transmission, you’re definitely going to want to learn to drive manual. Don’t worry about the clutch, especially if it’s hard for your hands. Manual is really important for getting good laptimes though because you learn when to hold a gear and let the revs climb past redline, you learn when to short shift to get better traction, and you learn when staying in a higher gear is a better option than a downshift. In short, it allows you to tailor the power going through your drive wheels to the situation. An automatic just shifts at the same points no matter whether it makes any sense to do so.

13

OK…

Lou, to try and give you a decent apples-to-apples comparsion:

I grabbed the Tune / Setup that you shared, and ran some laps using ABS-ON / TCS-off / STM-off / Auto-trans.

Managed a 2:06.198 - and there is most definitely room for improvement.

Take a look at my replay, and maybe even try chasing my ghost. That way you don’t have to wonder if it’s the car-build / tune or the assists.

  • Don
14

Ok, I added you as a friend so it would just make you my rival. Only thing is, your ghost doesn’t appear. Don’t know if that’s a problem on my end, or with the Forza servers, but it happens a lot when my rival’s ghost doesn’t appear. I ran the course anyway and tried to keep in mind what everyone posted in this thread. Turned in later, feathered the throttle more around the turns, etc. I’ve been stuck at 2:08.5 for a while now and wouldn’t you know it, I ran three laps and my second and third were 2:08.375 and a 2:08.222. So I jumped up almost a hundred spots to 1048. I did watch your replay though. We run most of the course in very similar fashions. However, there are about three areas that you tackle very differently from me. This is exactly what I was hoping for when I created this thread. Now I’ve got a visual to work on things.

Thanks a lot Don.

BTW, shave about another .5 to .75 seconds off your time and you’ll be the fastest Mini on that leaderboard. You’re about 100 spots behind the best one as of right now. Though, I sense that racing D class isn’t your thing. Thanks for taking a walk through the park :slight_smile:

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Cool, appreciate that. Is your replay on the leaderboard? What number so I can find it? I’m not too good with finding my way around yet. I’m going to go take a look in a few minutes.

16

Good job Don, that is pretty cool of you to do.

17

This has really got me interested. If anyone can post a top 100 time with a mini on this track i will gift them 1,000,000 credits. I’m going to try make a build which will do. If it’s top 100 time but lower than your pb just share the replay and inform of it here.

18

Like I said earlier, the top Mini was like 354 or something like that when I looked last. Could be quite different already though. Seems like a lot of people are on there beating my times as my ranking keeps going down… Can’t a guy feel a little good about himself for a while??? :slight_smile: Just kidding

I seriously doubt many will break into the top 100 with Minis on this leaderboard. The car just isn’t the right car for it. The Mini totally dominates Catalunya, Le Mans Bugatti, and Laguna in D class, but it just doesn’t get it done on the Alps Festival. I assume its from all the uphill climbs. Celicas have like 95 of the top 100 times on that course in d class.

Can you gift credits? Seriously, how do you do that? I’ve got tons of them and would gladly share with others if I knew how to do it.

19

??? you do realize there is no gifting in forza 5 right? bet someone bragging rights or maybe say you’ll race in a pink car for a full day or something. also to do that they are going to have to practice alot…chances are they dont really need more credits. i consider myself above average but by no means a pro andd i already have every car, alot of parts for them, and a few million spare credits. and i’m not going to take that bet because i dont think i can do it. like i said above average but not pro.

20

Ok, I couldn’t be more frustrated. I got Don’s ghost to appear and I ran 25 laps against it. The best I could do is finish 3.5 seconds behind him. I literally tried everything I could think of to match his every move, but it was no use. I kept rewinding it over and over and over to try and duplicate what he was doing. Everytime I’d make a mistake, I’d back it up. I hadn’t used rewind much before tonight and I realized something incredibly annoying about it. When you screw up and then rewind, it brings you back to the point in which you started making the error and its too late to correct it. You always have to rewind it once more.

Anyway, on the 25th lap, after hitting a guard rail on the one turn for probably the 200th time, my Polish and Irish temper got the better of me and I snapped the controller in half. I have another one, but that might be all the Forza for me for tonight.