Perhaps you need to play it with the Thrustmaster TX 458 Iltalia Wheel. That’s what I play Forza 5 with. By far, the best Forza yet, in term of the physics. Maybe you should watch this review here buddy.
Inside Sim Racing
Look, take it or leave it. As expected most responses either make excuse because the people like the game anyways or sound like kids with no idea what they are talking about giving typical kid responses.
Do the game developers monitor any particular site or is there a good way to offer feedback? One hope is that this would be an easy parameter tweek that would really improve the game.
If you want real feedback from someone who actually races cars. Real cars. Real tracks. Pretty good at it. Done things like being a driving instructor for the Viper club when they go out and rent race tracks to drive around. Also a real life mechanical engineer. And someone who has played racing sims since i was young and just turned 40.
The game console is mostly for my kids. I picked up forza 5 after reading all the rave reviews about its realism. I am pointing out a very direct and fundamental problem that immediately leaves me very unimpressed despite all the good looks. I know there are mostly kids out there real quick to tell me all about things like energy and what it is really like to drive a car, which is just funny. Kids being kids.
People can do amazing things. If your thing is learning how to interact with this game to get good at it the way it is and you enjoy it then thats great, have fun, go be the best you can be.
I would only point out that there are people like me who feel all the pretty looks, sounds, number of cars, etc. are entirely lost if you cant offer decent car control, which means having some level of realism when it comes to steering. In real life it doesn’t take an eternity to go from lock to lock. In the game you go opposite with the stick and a spin out later you steering wheel is finally where it would have needed to be to save the spin. It is as maddening as hearing your own voice echo back through the telephone.
Like i said take it or leave it, but you are kidding yourselves or just being kids if you think real life steering input rates are anywhere near as slow as the game developers have made them. The question is why? Why place an unrealistic ‘speed limit’ on rate of steering? It has to be a simple parameter that someone somewhere decided to set. How and why did they get this parameter so wrong? It could totally transform the experience and increase the realism to simply let the player steer the car.
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Wait you are an engineer and a real live racer and you are basing this opinion on inputs with the hand controller? I have worked with a ton of engineers over the yrs and when they provide analysis it is much more factual and objective than your very subjective presentation.
What kind of engineer are you? Sanitation? And as long as we are talking simulation vs reality. I have been lucky enough to own a few well built cars. Currently I have my least capable which is a 2012 M5.
I have tried most of the racing sims and use a steering wheel. would you mind telling me which racing sim (aside from F1 driver training) is out there that REALLY emulates the steering and reality of a car enough that you’d decide your stick inputs were bad enough to mention?
I know this from many hours of learning and trying to understand forzas steering models. When i first got my fanatec gt2 on forza 3 it only took me about 30 minutes to realise there was something not right (forza 3 had the worst counterseering assist that made having 900 degrees of rotation completely moot, and it was never fixed, in fact I was the one who discovered the glitches in the wheels and game to allow true 900 degrees of rotation, but it had poor linearity, but was better than nothing) even when forza 4 was released it still had the same problem, and they only fixed it for simulation steering, normal steering still has the bug, and I assume forza 5 is the same (don’t know for sure because I have no wheel to test it). I have put alot of hours into understanding how the games have handled steering input, Ieven got into an argument with a modderator about it that got me in some hot water because he simply didnt believe me (there is a video on YouTube now that confirms what I was arguing by Dan himself).
And I wast trying to say it’s unrealistic, I’m trying to say it’s a large annoyance.
It’s called “Speed Sensitive Steering.”
Most, if not all, PC Sim Racers have this setting set as adjustable. You’ll notice that the speed in which the wheel turns is related to how fast you are going. Drive slower and the driver will turn the wheel faster. Drive faster, yank the joystick side to side and notice how you barely move. It’s a clever system, and it is essential if you use a joystick (Have you tried a Sim Racer with a joystick without Speed Sensitive Steering? The slightest movement in the stick causes havoc.)
What Forza needs is an adjustable setting. The Gran Turismo series suffers from a locked SSS setting, as well. The reasoning behind SSS is to try and map the full turning radius of a wheel into a joystick which only has a fraction of that radius. The game evaluates how fast you are going and keeps your steering within reason, regardless of how sharply you turn. Without SSS, you’d turn the stick just slightly and your wheel is already at a 90 degree angle. I’ve played around with very low SSS settings in GTR2 and rFactor, and I always end up flipping the car over, haha.
Speed Sensitive Steering is a must for a joystick. The only way around it is a proper wheel with 900 degree turning. Although, I would prefer an adjustable setting for the SSS, though…
Agree 100% with the op. The steering input is so slow it feels like there is a big lag in the steering which makes this game unenjoyable. Forza 4 was great and the Forza 5 demo was PERFECT so I was excited for the game and as soon as I started playing Forza 5 I immediated notice the difference. I played with a wheel and controller on 4 so I know the difference. All they need to do is give us more controller options to fix this. It feels like it was catered to the players who only turn with stick all the way or no stick at all (on or off) with the tapping method.
If everyone is expecting Forza to be a hardcore simulation racer, it isn’t. They don’t even market it as one. They market it as a simulation racer for everyone. It has a lot of simulation about it and very realistic driving physics with the tires and suspension, but it isn’t specifically made for the hardcore racer. It appeals to everyone, hardcore or arcade. If you want a hardcore sim on the Xbox One you will need to wait until Project CARS releases this year some time.
I am looking forward to Project Cars. I would love to play Forza 5 with you guys but I went with the Wii U. Maybe I will see some of you this fall.
I’ve owned a lot of cars, some that are in the game, specifically the muscle cars. Currently I own a '71 big block stingray (nevada silver) and an '87 Grand National. Both have serious “steering input lag” in real life. So the game’s not that far off. And the '69 442 I used to own kind of thought about turning when you cut the wheel and even when it did finally turn the corner was over.
Absolutely no question that a steering wheel is far superior and almost certainly necessary for precise or high level control. I would never argue otherwise. And no, i havent tried forza with a wheel. A big question is whether or not the steering rate has the same limitation if you do get a wheel. Because if the steering rate is still so slow that the steering completely lags behind what you are doing with the wheel then there is no point, at least for me, buying he wheel as the game would still be so flawed as to be not worth playing in my opinion. On the other hand, if the game actually follows the steering it might completely transform the game and make it awesome.
Of course that still begs the question, why limit the rate on the regular controller in such a weird way?
I get that some of you will so passionately defend this thing you love that credentials or valid points are irrelevent. Fernando Alonso could be offering suggestions or comparing to the simulator at Maranello and some of you would still want to give him an earful about how awesome and perfect this game is. Well, i’m certainly not Fernando Alonso. But unlike virtually all of you i do have a lot of wheel to wheel competition experience in both production based and purpose build race cars. Discount it, tell me all about the other engineers and racers you know. You dont believe it or just cant accept it, who knows.
It has been a while but probably the best sim game ever, at least to me, was grand prix racing legends on the pc. Of course, it couldnt touch the graphics of forza and the pc back then had nowhere near the capabilities of these things that are ‘just consoles’. With a steering wheel and pedal set it was very challenging and felt amazing to drive, even though of course it isnt like virtual reality or something, it had plenty of flaws.
Dont miss that my biggest problem with forza is pretty specific to a particular parameter which, for the life of me, i cant imagine why they got so wrong and for no apparent reason. It is such a small and simple thing that potentially could change th experience from dismal to awesome.
You can make a game or competition out of anything. Throwing rocks at trees, shooting paper baskets, etc. As it is, forza is a game with cars and tracks and you can play it. But if you dont want driving skill to be a part of the game or vehicle dynamics then why not stick to mario kart, which is super fun although clearly not a driving simulation.
Put it this way, if i was Fermando Alonso you would hope that in some way my driving instincts would be applicable to the game just like they are to any form of real racing from karts to ice racing. You would hope that it might be fun to ‘race on’ just for kicks. Would i expect to beat the best gamers, no way, as the skill set to be very good is different and it isnt virtual reality or an actual simulator. But i would hope that the control would be inviting and make me want to play and try to do better. Sadly, like me, i would expect Fernando to quickly dismiss the game simply because the control is so artificially limited and bad.
To be clear, my problem isnt sensitivity, although i can see that being an issue without a wheel. The problem is that the maximum rate of steering, i.e. Change in steering angle per unit time, is very slow. So slow that the virtual steering inout are giving the car lags the actual input you are giving the controller, making the cars uncontrollable at least in a traditional sense.
From an engineering standpoint oversteer is a dynamically unstable condition where vehicle yaw rate is not proportional to steering input. Rather, a fixed steering input results in a yaw rate that will continue to grow, resulting in a ‘spin out’. Obviously a steering correction is needed to prevent a spin out. But there are time scales involved. A spin out doesnt take all week to happen. Unfortunately, in forza it takes all week for your controller input to translate into virtual steering in game. So even a great correction, or a move that should save the car still results in a stupid tank slapping spinout. If you are reacting to what is happening in the game you are already too late, because your controller input was needed 2 seconds ago. It is like you are calling the xbox one from your controller via satellite phone. Hi can you hear me?..1 sec…2sec…yes i can hear you.
Actually it is the rate being limited, not an actual time lag. Steer lock to lock quickly and watch how fast the virtual wheel moves. Sadly, the game physics behave according to what that virtual steering wheel is doing, not what you are doing on the controller.
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100% agree with that. Threading Ferrari 312 through Masta kink was the bomb! Played it with Non-FB wheel! And watched valves shoot out from the car in front as its engine over-rev’d! That was excitement and good racing. And more than 10 years ago . . .
- Anyone can claim to be anything on the internet. Claims on the internet are not credentials.
I now claim to be a former pilot for the space shuttle. I can quote you all kinds of scientific mumbo jumbo about the space shuttle (oddly enough I really can due to some formal aerospace training that I never put to use on anything, and a life long love for anything that flies), and it may even sound really convincing, but it’s not credentials. In reality, I am not a space shuttle pilot (surprise!), although I have been in in the same hangar, and indeed touched, the only known mock-up of “Shuttle C”. (Google it.)
The point of that last part is: I can swear on my mother’s life that I have told the total truth about the Shuttle C (the only true thing in that whole paragraph), but what reason does anyone here have to believe me? Where are my Credentials? What proof have I provided other than my word, and my mother’s life?
What’s more, I just admitted in the same sentence that my previous claim would have been a lie had I tried to stick with it. Does that little extra step lend itself to credibility? Probably not to those familiar with the internet, but it’s actually something I’ve seen people do many times when trying to bolster credibility without proof.
So now, all in all, I have now made two claims, and have yet to provide any actual proof of either. No credentials, just a swear on my mother. I have even gone the extra step of admitting that the first claim would have been a lie, has if to imply that I am now telling the truth. However, without actual credentials, I have no right to the expectation that people will take my word for either just on my say so.
Same goes for everyone. Claims are not credentials, and most are wary enough not to just take a persons word for it.
- Validity is often subjective, and often the victim of majority rule.
Pretty self explanatory. A point may very well be valid to the person making it, but it may not be valid to the larger community. It’s up to the person making the point to present their argument in a convincing manner, either towards gaining of support, or at least reasonable consideration from those who find themselves to disagree. Failure to do so is not the fault of the reader.
Sometimes, no matter how valid and well expressed the point, it will never be accepted by the majority. They may recognize it has valid to the individual, but they may never see it has applicable to themselves. That also is not their fault. That’s just the way it is, and everyone has to agree to disagree.
Now then, let me get this straight. Mainly the you find the steering unresponsive has it relates to your tastes, correct?
Assuming that is so, and that is indeed your point, I can entirely agree with you that for you the responsiveness is too slow. I can also agree that for you this is a very valid issue that effects your game play.
This is where we part however, because for me, steering is fine. I have no problems. I can drive my cars, and my gameplay is unaffected. If your reason for posting is to change my mind on this, sorry to say, you’re not going to be able to. But at the same time, I have no interest in defending this game, changing your mind, or otherwise really debating the matter in any way shape or form.
I will say though, if your issue can be fixed with some kind of slider or setting, then by all means, you have my support for that. Hope you get one (although that probably puts this thread dangerously close to wishlist thread territory, which typically results in a thread lock around here).
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I’m really glad that I’m not the only one who always though the steering was flawed and too slow…
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Op is absolutely right, but the speed sensitivity is necessary to make a fluid driving experience with a controller.
If you would have 0% speed sensitivity, it would give you full lock when you push the stick to left or right, at any given speed, which would result in massive understeer when turning into corners.
Because your car would be just sliding forward with the wheels turned in to the max. It would make correcting oversteer easier though. It should definitely be an option.
Why they decided not to animate the full 900° turning is beyond me. Gotta be a console thing.
i believe the the steering rate must be slowed for the controller to make the cars controllable, otherwise you would have center to full lock in half an inch of stick travel, would be way too over sensitive and also unrealistic as a person cannot spin a steering wheel that fast in real life.
with the analog stick i can go from center to full left in about 0.09 seconds, no human can do that in real life with a steering wheel in a car. so the slowed rate in the controller represents the time needed to spin a steering wheel with your hands.
The steering rate does not knee to be slowed to make it playable, I’ll try to explain this, the steering rate and speed sensitive steering are 2 separate thingd. Speed sensitive steering affects how much input is allowed to prevent mass amounts if understeer, it is fundimental to a controller to make the csr controllable. Steering rate however is not, the steering rate is the speed/how long it takes to go from lock to lock, mainly noticible when drifting or in a chicane were you need to change direction quickly but cant because the steering rate is too low. I can spin my wheel from lock to lock way faster than the game takes on a controller
well in that case they should increase the controller steering rate to the rate a person can physically do with a steering wheel. im thinking about 20% faster than it currently is?
i feel the rate is fine on the controller btw, and i use sim steering.
I think the best solution would be to add the option to adjust it in the advanced controller options, otherwise it may upset people that are happy with the way it is. That way the people that want to change it can really fine tune it to their liking.
How many people here play COD or battlefeild? And how many of you change to a higher look sensitivity? Now imaging if you were forced to play with the lowest sensitivity possible with no way to adjust it, would get annoying really fast
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I would love to know if the controller update, if it has been released yet, has had any effect on the issues being discussed.