Simulation Damage in Leagues

[PTG_Baby_Cow]

@Vrruumm

You don’t even own the game, so I am going to conclude you have no clue what you are talking about. Your points are meaningless because you don’t even understand the concept of FM7’s Leagues. FM7 is based off of “winning and losing” (gaining and losing positions). You gain points for gaining and lose points for quits and losing positions this means you have to put effort into the Leagues to progress up the Bands. The more consistently you gain positions each race, the more you move up. Even if the top ranks get diluted, it weeds out most of the crashers and much slower players. It may at most take 50 races to level up right now from Beginner to Elite if you are half decent. Someone who is bad at the game will require them to put in much more time or they might just struggle to improve in general. You won’t magically become Pinnacle by doing 1 or even 10 races, so yes it does take participation, but you don’t participation points for just playing. That would demean the whole system.

Stop replying until you actually have the game. You are just looking like you have no clue what you are talking about.

I don’t need to own a game to understand a system. The system is based on a trueskill… a system which doesnt work and never has because it is not individualized by game its across xbox, which means if you are in the lobby with a great COD player and beat him/her than you will gain more points because you “upset” a higher ranked player. True skill is completely garbage and no game should use it. So the whole premise of your arguement is flawed because you don’t even understand true skill which is how leagues are ranked.

[Vrruumm]

@PTG_Baby_Cow

@Vrruumm

You don’t even own the game, so I am going to conclude you have no clue what you are talking about. Your points are meaningless because you don’t even understand the concept of FM7’s Leagues. FM7 is based off of “winning and losing” (gaining and losing positions). You gain points for gaining and lose points for quits and losing positions this means you have to put effort into the Leagues to progress up the Bands. The more consistently you gain positions each race, the more you move up. Even if the top ranks get diluted, it weeds out most of the crashers and much slower players. It may at most take 50 races to level up right now from Beginner to Elite if you are half decent. Someone who is bad at the game will require them to put in much more time or they might just struggle to improve in general. You won’t magically become Pinnacle by doing 1 or even 10 races, so yes it does take participation, but you don’t participation points for just playing. That would demean the whole system.

Stop replying until you actually have the game. You are just looking like you have no clue what you are talking about.

I don’t need to own a game to understand a system. The system is based on a trueskill… a system which doesnt work and never has because it is not individualized by game its across xbox, which means if you are in the lobby with a great COD player and beat him/her than you will gain more points because you “upset” a higher ranked player. True skill is completely garbage and no game should use it. So the whole premise of your arguement is flawed because you don’t even understand true skill which is how leagues are ranked.

LOL. Proof from Microsoft that what you are saying is true. Sounds like you just created a conspiracy.

[PTG_Baby_Cow]

@Vrruumm

@PTG_Baby_Cow

@Vrruumm

You don’t even own the game, so I am going to conclude you have no clue what you are talking about. Your points are meaningless because you don’t even understand the concept of FM7’s Leagues. FM7 is based off of “winning and losing” (gaining and losing positions). You gain points for gaining and lose points for quits and losing positions this means you have to put effort into the Leagues to progress up the Bands. The more consistently you gain positions each race, the more you move up. Even if the top ranks get diluted, it weeds out most of the crashers and much slower players. It may at most take 50 races to level up right now from Beginner to Elite if you are half decent. Someone who is bad at the game will require them to put in much more time or they might just struggle to improve in general. You won’t magically become Pinnacle by doing 1 or even 10 races, so yes it does take participation, but you don’t participation points for just playing. That would demean the whole system.

Stop replying until you actually have the game. You are just looking like you have no clue what you are talking about.

I don’t need to own a game to understand a system. The system is based on a trueskill… a system which doesnt work and never has because it is not individualized by game its across xbox, which means if you are in the lobby with a great COD player and beat him/her than you will gain more points because you “upset” a higher ranked player. True skill is completely garbage and no game should use it. So the whole premise of your arguement is flawed because you don’t even understand true skill which is how leagues are ranked.

LOL. Proof from Microsoft that what you are saying is true. Sounds like you just created a conspiracy.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/trueskill-ranking-system/

Go read all about how true skill works. It is designed for COD and the likes not a racing game.

[Vrruumm]

@PTG_Baby_Cow

@Vrruumm

@PTG_Baby_Cow

@Vrruumm

You don’t even own the game, so I am going to conclude you have no clue what you are talking about. Your points are meaningless because you don’t even understand the concept of FM7’s Leagues. FM7 is based off of “winning and losing” (gaining and losing positions). You gain points for gaining and lose points for quits and losing positions this means you have to put effort into the Leagues to progress up the Bands. The more consistently you gain positions each race, the more you move up. Even if the top ranks get diluted, it weeds out most of the crashers and much slower players. It may at most take 50 races to level up right now from Beginner to Elite if you are half decent. Someone who is bad at the game will require them to put in much more time or they might just struggle to improve in general. You won’t magically become Pinnacle by doing 1 or even 10 races, so yes it does take participation, but you don’t participation points for just playing. That would demean the whole system.

Stop replying until you actually have the game. You are just looking like you have no clue what you are talking about.

I don’t need to own a game to understand a system. The system is based on a trueskill… a system which doesnt work and never has because it is not individualized by game its across xbox, which means if you are in the lobby with a great COD player and beat him/her than you will gain more points because you “upset” a higher ranked player. True skill is completely garbage and no game should use it. So the whole premise of your arguement is flawed because you don’t even understand true skill which is how leagues are ranked.

LOL. Proof from Microsoft that what you are saying is true. Sounds like you just created a conspiracy.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/trueskill-ranking-system/

Go read all about how true skill works. It is designed for COD and the likes not a racing game.

Where does it exactly say it is for every game on Xbox? Or across different games?

[leetorts]

@Vrruumm

@PTG_Baby_Cow

Yes I am aware that F1 drivers have (some) etiquette on track. The problem with forza is they could force people to learn track etiquette by doing exactly the opposite of what they have done. “People are complaining about wreckers… lets make it so its impossible to wreck each other.” People dont like doing things that are difficult. Racing wheel to wheel is difficult as you are messing with small margins. People likely wont put in the effort to learn unless there is a benefit to them or they are forced. This is general to human nature. With that said if t10 didn’t have any option other than sim people would learn to race. The average and even many of the above average “racers” in forza is not good. Make the people learn to race and the whole community will improve. The game is already set up for this if it worked. Have the levels in leagues be an actual skill level and not a stupid point system that encourages participation and people will work to improve, as people improve they will move away from wreckers… wreckers will stay in the bottom tier by themselves with only noobs and other wreckers.

The point system theoretically is based around skill, so I don’t see how getting rid of it will benefit Leagues. Participation is already encouraged, but people give up at the first sign of failure. People want to rank up, rank up, rank up… without putting in any effort. Leagues basically is set up for those who put in the effort to get better, they progress. No reason to start giving participation trophies to people don’t put in effort. The current league system is far better than that of FM6. The only thing that needs changing is how starting positions are determined. They should be based off of rank and not previous race’s lap times.

If you sort by rank and I’m not sure what you exactly mean by that it would not make it more fair. If you mean collector Tier, what does that have to do with anything? It has zero to do with skill. I’m a 38, so I should start first every single time because of it and never make any points? How is that fair? The problem currently is that people who cut up the track end up with dirty laps so they will always start behind everyone and do well because of it. They win by cutting and get to start in like last the next time. Meanwhile me who comes in say 16th out 20 with a clean lap will start in 5th or something. So I’m punished for racing clean and given an impossible task of beating a bunch of people cutting the track on a system where finishing even 1 place under your starting position loses points. There are those how intentionally dirty every lap to get a far back start position. The cutting is just out of control, I saw 6 cars all at once extend the first turn on Hockenheim. Turn 10 as in Forza 6 just continues to reward bad behavior. This needs to stop and cutting needs to be minimized and punished. For the love of god put in some kind of penalties!!! TCS should not be allowed in the leagues above Enthusiast as well. The higher you get in the leagues the less assists you should be able to use. Lets see them try and cut with no assists and see how they do.

[Vrruumm]

@leetorts

@Vrruumm

@PTG_Baby_Cow

Yes I am aware that F1 drivers have (some) etiquette on track. The problem with forza is they could force people to learn track etiquette by doing exactly the opposite of what they have done. “People are complaining about wreckers… lets make it so its impossible to wreck each other.” People dont like doing things that are difficult. Racing wheel to wheel is difficult as you are messing with small margins. People likely wont put in the effort to learn unless there is a benefit to them or they are forced. This is general to human nature. With that said if t10 didn’t have any option other than sim people would learn to race. The average and even many of the above average “racers” in forza is not good. Make the people learn to race and the whole community will improve. The game is already set up for this if it worked. Have the levels in leagues be an actual skill level and not a stupid point system that encourages participation and people will work to improve, as people improve they will move away from wreckers… wreckers will stay in the bottom tier by themselves with only noobs and other wreckers.

The point system theoretically is based around skill, so I don’t see how getting rid of it will benefit Leagues. Participation is already encouraged, but people give up at the first sign of failure. People want to rank up, rank up, rank up… without putting in any effort. Leagues basically is set up for those who put in the effort to get better, they progress. No reason to start giving participation trophies to people don’t put in effort. The current league system is far better than that of FM6. The only thing that needs changing is how starting positions are determined. They should be based off of rank and not previous race’s lap times.

If you sort by rank and I’m not sure what you exactly mean by that it would not make it more fair. If you mean collector Tier, what does that have to do with anything? It has zero to do with skill. I’m a 38, so I should start first every single time because of it and never make any points? How is that fair? The problem currently is that people who cut up the track end up with dirty laps so they will always start behind everyone and do well because of it. They win by cutting and get to start in like last the next time. Meanwhile me who comes in say 16th out 20 with a clean lap will start in 5th or something. So I’m punished for racing clean and given an impossible task of beating a bunch of people cutting the track on a system where finishing even 1 place under your starting position loses points. There are those how intentionally dirty every lap to get a far back start position. The cutting is just out of control, I saw 6 cars all at once extend the first turn on Hockenheim. Turn 10 as in Forza 6 just continues to reward bad behavior. This needs to stop and cutting needs to be minimized and punished. For the love of god put in some kind of penalties!!!

Sort by rank as in:
1st is Rank 1 in the Band with 500 points
2nd is Rank 1 in the Band with 480 points
3rd is Rank 2 in the band with 450 points
…
15th is Rank 5 in the band with 0 points.

Pretty simple concept.

It removes the importance of getting clean or dirty laps. It still isn’t great, but it will minimize the advantage people get from setting dirty laps to start farther back to boost their XP earned each race. Penalties won’t happen anytime soon. I’d be shocked if T10 actually did something. However solving the starting position problem will slightly improve the situation with starting position for people who run clean laps. People who don’t won’t be able to get even more advantage for starting in the back to gain more points. Eventually in the higher divisions, people who cut won’t find much success unless they only play on tracks that have massive advantages from cutting.

[PTG_Baby_Cow]

@Vrruumm

Well FM7 has a change in how points are awarded. You gain points for improving from your starting position and lose points by falling back. There is no “overall winning” a league this time around. No leaderboards or any of that. It is just you versus people of “similar” skill level, but everyone starts out at the bottom and you have to work your way up to higher bands. You can also go down in rank if you do poorly. If you start doing poorly consistently then you can end up back at the bottom again. The band doesn’t reset between each series. Not sure about each season yet, but I think T10 said that the Band won’t reset each season. So you work hard and get to band Elite or Pinnacle, you will be there until you start doing badly, then you drop down. It has nothing really to do with play time anymore. It is purely based off of how well you do and how often.

The biggest difference between organized leagues and the in game leagues is that many organized leagues have a set rule set and penalize people who crash, cut corners, and cause other issues, etc., and they also have basically tests you have to pass to be able to race in the leagues. These two things would go a long way to improve the league system, but overall wouldn’t mean everyone would have access to them like the in game leagues do.

This is another one of those things that doesnt really make sense. If i start first and keep winning how does it tell if I am where I should be or too low? I never improved my position?

@Vrruumm

The point system theoretically is based around skill, so I don’t see how getting rid of it will benefit Leagues. Participation is already encouraged, but people give up at the first sign of failure. People want to rank up, rank up, rank up… without putting in any effort. Leagues basically is set up for those who put in the effort to get better, they progress. No reason to start giving participation trophies to people don’t put in effort. The current league system is far better than that of FM6. The only thing that needs changing is how starting positions are determined. They should be based off of rank and not previous race’s lap times.

If you sort by rank and I’m not sure what you exactly mean by that it would not make it more fair. If you mean collector Tier, what does that have to do with anything? It has zero to do with skill. I’m a 38, so I should start first every single time because of it and never make any points? How is that fair? The problem currently is that people who cut up the track end up with dirty laps so they will always start behind everyone and do well because of it. They win by cutting and get to start in like last the next time. Meanwhile me who comes in say 16th out 20 with a clean lap will start in 5th or something. So I’m punished for racing clean and given an impossible task of beating a bunch of people cutting the track on a system where finishing even 1 place under your starting position loses points. There are those how intentionally dirty every lap to get a far back start position. The cutting is just out of control, I saw 6 cars all at once extend the first turn on Hockenheim. Turn 10 as in Forza 6 just continues to reward bad behavior. This needs to stop and cutting needs to be minimized and punished. For the love of god put in some kind of penalties!!!

Sort by rank as in:
1st is Rank 1 in the Band with 500 points
2nd is Rank 1 in the Band with 480 points
3rd is Rank 2 in the band with 450 points
…
15th is Rank 5 in the band with 0 points.

Pretty simple concept.

It removes the importance of getting clean or dirty laps. It still isn’t great, but it will minimize the advantage people get from setting dirty laps to start farther back to boost their XP earned each race. Penalties won’t happen anytime soon. I’d be shocked if T10 actually did something. However solving the starting position problem will slightly improve the situation with starting position for people who run clean laps. People who don’t won’t be able to get even more advantage for starting in the back to gain more points. Eventually in the higher divisions, people who cut won’t find much success unless they only play on tracks that have massive advantages from cutting.

^ which as i mentioned before awards participation as much/more than skill. You race 2 races a day and get 1st each time @ 500 points, I race 50 races a day and get 10th place @ say 100 points. I have made 50000 points from being merely mediocre, you have earned 1000 points from being great. This is where things get even more complicated. You are good friends with some of the best players in forza, you all privately organize to join the (forza organized) leagues race at 1 time so you actually can have a fun and competitive race. You beat 15 of the best forza players in the world in both of your races. I beat a hand full of children who have never played a racing game before in their life in my 50 races. I still end up with 49000 more points than you thus i move up to the elite and you continue in the lower levels. It awards participation over skill. Races need to be weighted not just on finishing position but on quality of the competition.

[Vrruumm]

@PTG_Baby_Cow

@Vrruumm

Well FM7 has a change in how points are awarded. You gain points for improving from your starting position and lose points by falling back. There is no “overall winning” a league this time around. No leaderboards or any of that. It is just you versus people of “similar” skill level, but everyone starts out at the bottom and you have to work your way up to higher bands. You can also go down in rank if you do poorly. If you start doing poorly consistently then you can end up back at the bottom again. The band doesn’t reset between each series. Not sure about each season yet, but I think T10 said that the Band won’t reset each season. So you work hard and get to band Elite or Pinnacle, you will be there until you start doing badly, then you drop down. It has nothing really to do with play time anymore. It is purely based off of how well you do and how often.

The biggest difference between organized leagues and the in game leagues is that many organized leagues have a set rule set and penalize people who crash, cut corners, and cause other issues, etc., and they also have basically tests you have to pass to be able to race in the leagues. These two things would go a long way to improve the league system, but overall wouldn’t mean everyone would have access to them like the in game leagues do.

This is another one of those things that doesnt really make sense. If i start first and keep winning how does it tell if I am where I should be or too low? I never improved my position?

@Vrruumm

The point system theoretically is based around skill, so I don’t see how getting rid of it will benefit Leagues. Participation is already encouraged, but people give up at the first sign of failure. People want to rank up, rank up, rank up… without putting in any effort. Leagues basically is set up for those who put in the effort to get better, they progress. No reason to start giving participation trophies to people don’t put in effort. The current league system is far better than that of FM6. The only thing that needs changing is how starting positions are determined. They should be based off of rank and not previous race’s lap times.

If you sort by rank and I’m not sure what you exactly mean by that it would not make it more fair. If you mean collector Tier, what does that have to do with anything? It has zero to do with skill. I’m a 38, so I should start first every single time because of it and never make any points? How is that fair? The problem currently is that people who cut up the track end up with dirty laps so they will always start behind everyone and do well because of it. They win by cutting and get to start in like last the next time. Meanwhile me who comes in say 16th out 20 with a clean lap will start in 5th or something. So I’m punished for racing clean and given an impossible task of beating a bunch of people cutting the track on a system where finishing even 1 place under your starting position loses points. There are those how intentionally dirty every lap to get a far back start position. The cutting is just out of control, I saw 6 cars all at once extend the first turn on Hockenheim. Turn 10 as in Forza 6 just continues to reward bad behavior. This needs to stop and cutting needs to be minimized and punished. For the love of god put in some kind of penalties!!!

Sort by rank as in:
1st is Rank 1 in the Band with 500 points
2nd is Rank 1 in the Band with 480 points
3rd is Rank 2 in the band with 450 points
…
15th is Rank 5 in the band with 0 points.

Pretty simple concept.

It removes the importance of getting clean or dirty laps. It still isn’t great, but it will minimize the advantage people get from setting dirty laps to start farther back to boost their XP earned each race. Penalties won’t happen anytime soon. I’d be shocked if T10 actually did something. However solving the starting position problem will slightly improve the situation with starting position for people who run clean laps. People who don’t won’t be able to get even more advantage for starting in the back to gain more points. Eventually in the higher divisions, people who cut won’t find much success unless they only play on tracks that have massive advantages from cutting.

^ which as i mentioned before awards participation as much/more than skill. You race 2 races a day and get 1st each time @ 500 points, I race 50 races a day and get 10th place @ say 100 points. I have made 50000 points from being merely mediocre, you have earned 1000 points from being great. This is where things get even more complicated. You are good friends with some of the best players in forza, you all privately organize to join the (forza organized) leagues race at 1 time so you actually can have a fun and competitive race. You beat 15 of the best forza players in the world in both of your races. I beat a hand full of children who have never played a racing game before in their life in my 50 races. I still end up with 49000 more points than you thus i move up to the elite and you continue in the lower levels. It awards participation over skill. Races need to be weighted not just on finishing position but on quality of the competition.

In FM7 you earn positive and negative points based on how you do. THIS IS NOT FORZA MOTORSPORT 6 LEAGUES.

[PTG_Baby_Cow]

I havent heard anything about the points system changing for leagues between 6 and 7. Unless there was a change to the scoring which i am unaware of it is much less about how well you do and much more about how often you do. I am unemployed and can be in leagues the entire time it is open i have a chance at winning the league. You work full time have children etc, you are only able to do a race or 2 a day in league… no chance at winning even if you beat me every time we race and never lose you can not win with the current league scoring. Yes it does account for how well you do to an extent but not nearly as much as others.

With that said I am not saying to remove the scoring system just a revamp to get you placed with your actual peers more often. Iracing has done this for ages, pcars has just begun doing this. Do i think it needs to be done like either system where it is displayed, no. Just have it noted that there is a sophisticated skill based matchmaking system that is always enforced which will make people much more reluctant to using poor behavior or making decisions that are likely to ruin theres or another persons race.

I can tell you from reviewing many accidents while with organized leagues and things i have seen on track, most people wanna be schumacher or senna and would rather both people wreck apposed to giving up the position and actually finishing the race. I understand not wanting to lose but i have always had much more fun finishing a race than being wrecked out due to over agression of others. A skilled racer can see these actions and usually knows how to counter them, but most people wouldn’t know good race craft if they saw it, so how can they try to emulate it, they only know the handful of famous over agressive drivers that win at all costs.

[Vrruumm]

@PTG_Baby_Cow

I havent heard anything about the points system changing for leagues between 6 and 7. Unless there was a change to the scoring which i am unaware of it is much less about how well you do and much more about how often you do. I am unemployed and can be in leagues the entire time it is open i have a chance at winning the league. You work full time have children etc, you are only able to do a race or 2 a day in league… no chance at winning even if you beat me every time we race and never lose you can not win with the current league scoring. Yes it does account for how well you do to an extent but not nearly as much as others.

With that said I am not saying to remove the scoring system just a revamp to get you placed with your actual peers more often. Iracing has done this for ages, pcars has just begun doing this. Do i think it needs to be done like either system where it is displayed, no. Just have it noted that there is a sophisticated skill based matchmaking system that is always enforced which will make people much more reluctant to using poor behavior or making decisions that are likely to ruin theres or another persons race.

I can tell you from reviewing many accidents while with organized leagues and things i have seen on track, most people wanna be schumacher or senna and would rather both people wreck apposed to giving up the position and actually finishing the race. I understand not wanting to lose but i have always had much more fun finishing a race than being wrecked out due to over agression of others. A skilled racer can see these actions and usually knows how to counter them, but most people wouldn’t know good race craft if they saw it, so how can they try to emulate it, they only know the handful of famous over agressive drivers that win at all costs.

Well FM7 has a change in how points are awarded. You gain points for improving from your starting position and lose points by falling back. There is no “overall winning” a league this time around. No leaderboards or any of that. It is just you versus people of “similar” skill level, but everyone starts out at the bottom and you have to work your way up to higher bands. You can also go down in rank if you do poorly. If you start doing poorly consistently then you can end up back at the bottom again. The band doesn’t reset between each series. Not sure about each season yet, but I think T10 said that the Band won’t reset each season. So you work hard and get to band Elite or Pinnacle, you will be there until you start doing badly, then you drop down. It has nothing really to do with play time anymore. It is purely based off of how well you do and how often.

The biggest difference between organized leagues and the in game leagues is that many organized leagues have a set rule set and penalize people who crash, cut corners, and cause other issues, etc., and they also have basically tests you have to pass to be able to race in the leagues. These two things would go a long way to improve the league system, but overall wouldn’t mean everyone would have access to them like the in game leagues do.

[leetorts]

Not going to work, why should the 5’s get the advantage every time. Again the 1-5 is not really a skill indicator since so many people have yet to move up. So you have 5’s that are far more skilled than some 1’s because they maybe just started in the leagues. Especially with all the cutting those ranks do not mean anything. If you do bad in race your next start position should reflect that. How does finishing in my example say 16th out of 20 get you into starting 5th or something. It’s not enough to just look at a clean lap when people are taking advantage of that by cutting or getting dirty ones, finishing position should also be taken into account. That is the problem. I needed 4 points to get back to Pro last night. It took me 4 hrs because of all the cutting and me constantly over and over and over being put in the first 6 no matter what it seemed. The track rotations are loaded up with short twisty tracks that can easily be cut especially with Track toys. It wasn’t until a Rio National came up that I did well because you cannot cut anything there. Suddenly I finish in 6th when I couldn’t on the other tracks. I’ve done league for a long time and I know when massive cutting is going on. Track Toys in 6 had the same cutting problem. I would go from doing pretty well in Elite to doing horrible when Track Toys came up. Those BAC’s are cutting machines. If someone becomes a 1 because they cut everything it does not mean they are skilled.

[Vrruumm]

@leetorts

Not going to work, why should the 5’s get the advantage every time. Again the 1-5 is not really a skill indicator since so many people have yet to move up. So you have 5’s that are far more skilled than some 1’s because they maybe just started in the leagues. Especially with all the cutting those ranks do not mean anything. If you do bad in race your next start position should reflect that. How does finishing in my example say 16th out of 20 get you into starting 5th or something. It’s not enough to just look at a clean lap when people are taking advantage of that by cutting or getting dirty ones, finishing position should also be taken into account. That is the problem. I needed 4 points to get back to Pro last night. It took me 4 hrs because of all the cutting and me constantly over and over and over being put in the first 6 no matter what it seemed. The track rotations are loaded up with short twisty tracks that can easily be cut especially with Track toys. It wasn’t until a Rio National came up that I did well because you cannot cut anything there. Suddenly I finish in 6th when I couldn’t on the other tracks. I’ve done league for a long time and I know when massive cutting is going on. Track Toys in 6 had the same cutting problem. I would go from doing pretty well in Elite to doing horrible when Track Toys came up. Those BAC’s are cutting machines.

Considering you can’t understand the simple concept of how skill based ranking works and having starting position based off of skill. I don’t think I can continue with this conversation with you.

[Vrruumm]

@leetorts

Not going to work, why should the 5’s get the advantage every time. Again the 1-5 is not really a skill indicator since so many people have yet to move up. So you have 5’s that are far more skilled than some 1’s because they maybe just started in the leagues. Especially with all the cutting those ranks do not mean anything. If you do bad in race your next start position should reflect that. How does finishing in my example say 16th out of 20 get you into starting 5th or something. It’s not enough to just look at a clean lap when people are taking advantage of that by cutting or getting dirty ones, finishing position should also be taken into account. That is the problem. I needed 4 points to get back to Pro last night. It took me 4 hrs because of all the cutting and me constantly over and over and over being put in the first 6 no matter what it seemed. The track rotations are loaded up with short twisty tracks that can easily be cut especially with Track toys. It wasn’t until a Rio National came up that I did well because you cannot cut anything there. Suddenly I finish in 6th when I couldn’t on the other tracks. I’ve done league for a long time and I know when massive cutting is going on. Track Toys in 6 had the same cutting problem. I would go from doing pretty well in Elite to doing horrible when Track Toys came up. Those BAC’s are cutting machines. If someone becomes a 1 because they cut everything it does not mean they are skilled.

I wanted to comeback to your post.

How is basing starting position off of rank, not going to work? A player with higher skill will be able to progress through the band just as easily as they are now. It will also cut out the focus on dirtying laps on purpose just to get a 8-15th starting position after finishing first, so players will actually have to beat higher ranked players to progress. This is essentially going to come down to the skill of the players to progress through the ranks. Corner cutting is very common in lesser skilled players. As I have progressed through the ranks, there have been only a handful of corner cutters.

Most people still run dirty lap times to get a farther back starting position to get the most points they can per race. Why keep getting clean laps and starting up front when you can start setting dirty laps and start at the back especially when starting at the back rewards more points? As for your experience, if it took you 4 hours, maybe you should have quit out and rejoined after a couple minutes, you might have gotten a farther back starting position and could have gained position to gain more points.

Either way there is not really anyway to get rid of corner cutting as players. It is up to T10. Right now I know most people are abusing the current system because it is flawed, especially starting position being based off of previous race’s lap times and people resetting their times by quitting and rejoining. By getting rid of this exploit, it will mean the only issue then will be corner cutting, and as of right now, I haven’t seen that many people excessively corner cutting. There has been maybe 1-2 guys in the past 20 races I have done that would do it constantly.

By setting the starting position based off of Band rank 1-5, players will have to beat higher ranked players to rank up, which is the point of a TrueSkill/Elo ranking system. Being Rank 1 and starting 15th isn’t right. Rank 1s should always start up front because they are the highest ranked in the lobby. Skill of the players will allow them to progress through the bands. If a player can’t progress, then their skill has hit the wall. If people complain about not being able to rank up, then it is all their fault for their lack of skill.

[leetorts]

The ranks is no indication of skill. It is meaningless when people cheat to get to a rank. That seems fairly obvious, so really it is not based on skill at all but rather cheating skills for at least 50% of people in there. Your system would work in a situation where people don’t cheat. But like Turn 10 you just dismiss that fact.

[Arizer]

@leetorts

The ranks is no indication of skill. It is meaningless when people cheat to get to a rank. That seems fairly obvious, so really it is not based on skill at all but rather cheating skills for at least 50% of people in there. Your system would work in a situation where people don’t cheat. But like Turn 10 you just dismiss that fact.

I’ve really not seen much of this cheating you are talking about? The track cutters soon end up in a tier above there level so really by track cutting they only cheat themselves in the long run.

[Vrruumm]

@Arizer

@leetorts

The ranks is no indication of skill. It is meaningless when people cheat to get to a rank. That seems fairly obvious, so really it is not based on skill at all but rather cheating skills for at least 50% of people in there. Your system would work in a situation where people don’t cheat. But like Turn 10 you just dismiss that fact.

I’ve really not seen much of this cheating you are talking about? The track cutters soon end up in a tier above there level so really by track cutting they only cheat themselves in the long run.

Most of the time it is usually just 1 person who really abuses corner cutting. When they get to a track that doesn’t give them the cutting advantage they either quit or lose points. They will have to keep cheating just to have a good rank otherwise they would drop down quite fast.

[Vrruumm]

@leetorts

The ranks is no indication of skill. It is meaningless when people cheat to get to a rank. That seems fairly obvious

Okay, so why does it even matter to you then? Leagues is just public hoppers to you then. Have fun.

[PTG_Baby_Cow]

Source please.

[Vrruumm]

@PTG_Baby_Cow

Source please.

Link to find sources for Forza Motorsport 7 League Rankings

[leetorts]

You don’t have to lol. You just don’t want to believe how much cutting goes on. Just because someone is a one you are giving them special treatment without knowing how they got there or if they belong there. If you leave and rejoin the same lobby it will remember your grid position. You have to leave and go to a different lobby which I did and yes that is an exploit but it still insisted on starting me ahead of people who just raced or that joined the lobby before I did over and over no matter how many times I switched lobbies. Also half the lobby quit every single time after the race. I didn’t have problems until I got dropped back to Enthusiast where the cheating is really bad. I get dropped back all the time and generally 1-2 races and promoted again but not this time with these track toys. If I was grid ordered from being a 1 I would never have gotten out of there. It would have started me top 3 every single time with a bunch of cutters, I’m sorry I get clean laps without even trying and no I will not dirty my laps on purpose. What kind of racer would do that? This system is turning good clean drivers into bad ones. It’s really sad honestly.