Really really hardcore simulation?

Forza Motorsport Legacy Motorsport
41

I’m using a pad, but come to think of it, in Pcars defence I know a couple of people who are crazy about Pcars with a steering wheel, and one was a pad user to begin with and since getting a wheel we don’t see him anymore on Forza as he’s forever on Pcars.

So I can only go by pad experience, and I just find the steering on the pad far too senesitive like the car has no weight to it at all and slight touchers causes the cars to twitch too much. Some car classes handle better than others, but some drive me nuts.

I no doubt came across as a Pcars hater, which I’m not, I just feel it gets too much hype than it deserves, yes it’s got better since its buggy launch, but for pad users the handling could be better and gfx could also be so much better. As my post says though, I do really like it’s MP host options, 4 weather types that can be merged along with various time scale for day and night, that to me is it’s best part. Also having prac sessions blend into qual and warm up and race, it makes an ideal hosting set up. A few sequals down the line I think this will become an excellent racing game, but right now (for me anyway) it’s at the start of it’s life so it’s bound to take time to get better. We’re on the 6th version of Forza spanning over 10yrs and we still find many things we want included, so it’s hard to compare a game on it’s 6th release to a game that is on it’s first.

I feel Assetto Corsa when it launches on Xbox One will also be at the start of its journey and will no doubt have plenty of bugs in it too like Pcars did at launch, so again I’m not expecting too much straight away from that title.

42

I would not call FM6 a hard-core simulator. I would call it a simulator. I would also call an arcade game. It is both. However, I think the wrong question is being asked. The correct question is “Do you have fun when playing FM6?” For me the answer is yes. It is a good balance between simulator and arcade.

43

Hey Jim thanks for your post but I was confused with Dans comments and thought I would seek input from the community.
I don’t believe the question is wrong and asking your question in another topic may be an idea, then you can ask your own question and answer it also.

44

I didn’t mean to hijack your thread. I just think people get a little too hung up on calling FM 6 a simulator. I look at it as game that is based in reality that is fun to play.

I see your point about what Dan said. To answer your original question. I’d give it around a 5.

There are all sorts of issues with calling it a hardcore simulator. I started making a list but I’d been typing for hours.

45

Exactly it’s a game that can be incredibly fun to play but I certainly would consider it a really hardcore sim. After hearing Dans comments I thought perhaps I was missing something. I play bonnet view and use abs (to help me avoid unexpected online incidents ,if it helps or not is debatable) I try to get immersed with no pointy arrows changing Color on the track.
The lack of any enforced Motorsport rules in the racing aspect of this game is dissapointing to say the least and removes it from any where near a sim and also removes considerable enjoyment.
I’m down to mostly running around the track by myself and trying different cars and builds.
There are more rules in grid auto sport which is totally arcade.

46

Would a hardcore sim include 24 cars running around the Top Gear track ? Would it include rain conditions that would be hazardous for normal commuting ? Would it “simulate” 4 lap races with no rules at all ? Would a simulation racing game neglect to mention anywhere IN the game , the idea that contact with other cars should be avoided ? I would like to know what racing game Dan Greenwalt plays in his spare time .

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47

Exactly, does Dan play his game is probably another topic…

48

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a game being arcady, or along the range towards arcady. I personally don’t want a hardcore sim at 9 or 10 on the imaginary scale. If I did I’d play iRacing. I want something more immediate and accessible.

The problem Forza has, I reckon, isn’t where it is on the scale, but that it’s a bit schizophrenic - it’s a 7 or 8 in terms of look and feel but a 1 or 2 in terms of structure, and T10 want to position it both as mass-market casual racer and a more serious eSports-friendly competitive experience. In the end it’s just a bit of a mess and manages to be neither rather than both.

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49

Not to sound too snooty here but i think unless you are on a wheel its hard to jusge if something is sim or not.

7-8 in terms of feel? Every car can be tuned to feel the same and are required to in order for good times. And hard to say feel on a wheel when the ffb is a 1 or 2 at best…

50

That’s not snooty, it’s just missing the point. “Feel” is not the same as mechanical accuracy or authenticity. It’s about how your brain interprets inputs, not what form the inputs take. Anyone who has driven real cars is capable of judging how a driving game feels whether it’s on a wheel, an analogue stick or a digital d-pad, and Forza feels like it was intended to be simmy rather than arcady - to feel realistic (which isn’t the same as “be” realistic) rather than feel exaggerated or simplistic.

Of course an actual sim that’s designed for a wheel is inherently more simmy than a game designed for a console controller but that’s comparing apples with oranges. Console games, especially 1st-party console games, are not designed for wheels or any other input devices that 99.9% of players neither own nor want to own, so by judging the feel using one you’re really only judging the extent to which the developer could be bothered when tacking that functionality on at the end. It’s like concluding that iRacing is an arcade game because simulators on hyrdaulic platforms are more realistic and iRacing doesn’t support those. It’s just silly.

51

Just reading in another post re. The wheel and funny thing is from a really well respected source is That T10 roll out the wheel and playseat wherever the opportunity presents to promote their games( recently at E3). If the game is not aimed at wheel users, using it to promote your game is just silly.

52

That’s just marketing. Wheel rigs look a lot cooler on a show floor than stand-up booths, and of course T10 want wheel users to buy the game too. T10 have also been known to use a 3-screen build of the game running on PC in certain demos, functionality that isn’t offered at all in the final product. But a 1st-party studio just isn’t going to design and balance a game around wheel use from inception, or create an experience where owners of a 3rd-party peripheral are at an advantage over players with the standard kit.

That’s besides the point though, the question was whether a game can “feel” simmy with a controller, and of course it can. Any attempt to reproduce a convincingly realistic experience is simulation by definition, regardless of the input device and also regardless of how successful it is, and the handling model in Forza is clearly intended to faithfully reproduce the feel of driving a car, as opposed to games like NFS or Burnout or Mariokart or even Horizon, which clearly aren’t.

My point was simply that this level of fidelity in the driving model is at odds with the pure-arcade 3-lap-with-no-rules structure of the game.

53

I would say 4.

While the cars are correctly modeled, some of them don’t even perform like they should. And this is a highly urgent issue that needs extreme attention and should be fixed immediately under the threat that I will quit FM6: the fact that the FXX K laps better than the P1 GTR despite real life and DRIVECLUB actually saying otherwise is not just completely unrealistic, but it’s also unrealistic to the point it actually angers me a lot. TURN 10, PLEASE NERF THE FXX K AND LAFERRARI BY MAKING THEM 464 LBS HEAVIER!!!

Even worse, contrary to popular belief, the P1 actually has 723 lb-ft (980 Nm) of torque, not 664(900). The official torque number was just the result of a math error.

As for weather, good as is. But for car sounds, there are sounds whose quality should be stepped up, especially the F40 and SLS AMG.

There are certain unrealistic things, especially the tuning and the fact that you can use a 2017 Ford GT or a Huracán against 23 Le Mans/Group C/Daytona prototypes. Hello? Is this the Asphalt series where a 2016 Camaro SS gets matched against a 5000 HP Devel Sixteen? No.

54

Yes some cars are either underpowered or overpowered like the fxxk. I can also see some problems with cars like the P1 GTR for example the car produces less amounts of front downforce in the game then the standard P1 and that’s wrong. And yes there are some errors in stats for some cars. Sounds are good but cars that you mentioned and a few others like the f-type for example need to be improved andvaldo the wind sound unfortunately was nerfed compared to F5 which was ashame.

55

Wow… you’re ONE person how finally agrees that cars like the SLS AMG and F40 dramatically need an improvement in their sound.

It was nearly perfect in F5, and especially 4, don’t know why they had to dumb it down and make it sound fake and Gran Turismo like. I’ve also been after them for months to improve the LaF’s sound from first-person views; needs to sound more ferocious and not whiny. Sound right from the exhaust view. Many of these cars sounded downright amazing and true-to-character in F5.

I don’t know what they’re doing with the sounds, but I sure hope NOT to see this hit-and-miss affair in F7. It kind of makes you mad how much attention and detail they gave to some cars while others just get a quick copy/paste job.

56

Forza 6 is kinda odd when it comes to sounds. Some of them sound perfect in forza 6 but there are a handful like you mentioned the f40, LaFerrari, SLS that are just not dramatic or beefy enough compared to there real life counterparts. Overall I do think forza 6 sounds better than forza 5 however I actually miss the echo you’d here of the walls and the wind noise when you pass under a bridge in F5, that’s what I miss the most.

57

Racing games are literally 99% of the games I’ve played and I’ve been playing games since I was 3 lol. Forza Motorsport 6’s physics are actually very nice and well put together. The actual car handling and feel itself is realistic and sim like. However there are some problems that I see.

  1. Aerodynamics

The aero on the game sort of works and sort of doesn’t… It’s kinda wierd. Yes forza does simulate aero, the more downforce you have the better cornering you will have but at low speeds aero should have less or no effect than it does in forza. Air brakes and active aero isn’t simulated it’s just there and again kinda works. The air brakes don’t work but the brakes seem to incorporate it instead, in short, in tuning if you put the braking pressure to 0% on something like a P1 the air brake won’t work but if the brakes do have pressure the car will stop as it would if the air brake did work. Cars in Forza 6 need to be less effective in slow corners when they have large amounts of downforce and the air brake needs to be simulated.

  1. DRS and KERS

DRS and KERS are not simulated in Forza 6. DRS is animated but there is no effect not even the manual ability to activate it in the game. The ability to manually activate DRS and KERS would be a very nice touch that would make the game feel more sim like without it being overwhelming to non sim racers.

  1. Tuning

Tuning is a bit off. There’s still that magic camber that can make some cars ridiculously fast which is unrealistic. The tyre pressure doesn’t have a huge effect and it’s peak performance is at too high a PSI. Appart from these the tuning seems to be reasonably accurate but there’s still some irregular tendencies here and there on some cars. Overall the tuning is good but there needs to be more options and a little more accuracy on the tyre pressure and camber however from what I’ve heard forza horizon 3 has a more advaed tyre model so an even more simulated tyre model might come to FM7.

  1. Drafting

Drafting seems to take too long in my opinion. The amount of speed you can get from drafting seems to be right but it feels like your waiting in the draft a little too long before it really takes effect. After the nascar expansion this has gotten better, though it is still not perfect… I also feel like running in the dirty air of a car doesn’t seem to effect the downforce as much as it should either. Drafting is ok in the game but it’s a little slow to take effect and dirty air doesn’t have enough impact on the cars handling.

  1. Damage

The damage model is excellent up to it’s limit. If you damage your car its damaged and it feels how it should but you can’t fully total a car or loose a wheel or something like that. There’s no mechanical failures either or types punctures. Also when I was driving a mclaren P1 GTR last night around the ring I tapped a walk and my wing came off. I though “that’s really cool” but then I was like “where is the damage”. I checked the telemetry and there was no damage even though my wing had literally snapped off. One more thing is that tire walls seem to only damage your car at high speeds… if you got the wall dead on at low speed you just bounce right off. So overall the damage model is good but there’s only so far your car can get damaged too.

I’d rate the physics of Forza 6 an 8 out of 10. The way the cars handle, feel, respond, drive and break traction feels great. The rain is the best I’ve seen in any racing game and again feels great. Overall the physics of the game are sim like and pretty realistic howevee they are missing key driving features like DRS and KERS. The Aero and tires need to be a little more realistic and the tuning needs to be slightly more accurate. The damage also needs to be more extreem. Even though the damage is excellent at the moment, cars can only be damaged so far.

The features in the game however aren’t sim like. No FOV or POV isn’t realistic. There are no racing rules or consequences. No pit stop crew. The animation of the wheel only goes to 90 degrees either side. There’s no qualifying. The standard racing is too short. There’s no ability to set the amount of fuel you have in the car. No dynamic weather. No soft or hard tyre compounds. Some cars don’t have a division. The game is maily aimed towards controller uaers and not wheel users. I could go on but the post wouldn’t fit on the page lol.

So to sum forza 6 up… Forza 6 is a sim racer with arcade features and structure. The physics are realistic and sim like but the game is aimed to be a pick up and ready to play game for everyone no matter the skill. Forza could be a full on sim in the future of it wanted to be but I feel that’s not turn 10’s trajectory even though the series seems to be pushing that way.

58

Have to give T10 some credit; they’ve managed to accurately simulate just how pointless and awful GT racing would be if they only ran 3-lap races.

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59

I would give it a 5 or 6. It’s not a hardcore sim, but it’s closer to sim than arcade (after all, most arcade racers I’ve played require little or no braking around corners). However, these are some problems/suggestions:

  • Car stats - some of these are wrong. For instance, I’m pretty sure the Lotus E23 has far less than the 900+ it has in the game.
  • Collisions. Apparently crashing a Bugatti Veyron at 269mph into a wall will allow it to drive off at about 80mph.
  • Race length. More endurance races would be good. I’m not talking about REALLY long races - I think more of those 100-mile races would be nice.
  • Have some (or all) races where you need to do a qualifying lap to determine race positions. Or give you the option of either qualifying or starting in 12th position anyway.
  • F1 races are rather, well, bland. Add more cars like the Mercedes Wo6 hybrid.
  • In the Le Mans 250 event, my Audi R18 e-tron quattro seems to only last 4 laps between pits (due to fuel running out). Not terribly realistic.
60

3 at best. While it is so awful on a wheel, how it can be considered a sim is beyond me. The whole meaning of a simulation is to imitate a real world process, and I’ve never once driven a car with a control pad.

The game doesn’t enable proper racing. The tracks don’t evolve. The Super amazing 3d puddles don’t change, you can’t adjust seat position, tyre Temps are a joke, pits are so far from reality it’s absurd, fuel usage is laughable, the list could go on and on.

But, Forza is good at what it actually is. It’s a very casual game, that allows groups to paint, drift, drag, race etc their dream cars. If it were a sim, it wouldn’t be nearly as fun.

If anyone has spent any amount of time at all on Automobilista. R3e, rfactor, iRacing etc, I’m sure they’d agree that they are sims, and Forza is far, far from being one.

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