PI system and the new DLC

I think we know why the PI system is so skewed towards grip this time around. In terms of PI points that is. The actual PI system off course makes pocket rockets preferable as tyres and such boost the PI sometimes several classes. With snow and ice incoming this would be why. I mean they had to cook the whole PI system before release, they’re not gonna make two separate systems. That would be a nightmare.
So now we know why the grip upgrades give the PI A massive kick in the pants. Thus far i’d assumed it was because of the off-road sections, but even those didn’t explain the extent of bias with this game compared to the last. But with snow and ice that would make sense.

Also big downhill snowy sections? I’m up for some soapbox racing, anyone else? I used to love simulating soapbox races on ice in Forza 4 by adjusting grip handicap. It was great and now we can do it more properly!

Thankyou playground! Thankyou thankyou thankyou!

lol.

So what does everyone else think? I know the PI system this time around has been a topic of heated discussion. So do you guys think it makes more sense now, or do you still hate the V8 dragsters and little rocket mobiles?
Imagine how many classes your C class car is gonna jump with snow tyres! lol

No. I do not think it makes more sense. In fact i think it makes less sense.now.

It would make sense if grip was low cost, not high cost (pi).

Not if grip was the sole factor in a good tune. Like, with the snow having good grip will be important, so it would benefit a tune more. So tyres give a bigger PI boost as they will be more useful. Performance wise you want grip in snow not power. Or you’ll just be sliding all over and not getting anywhere. But with big fat sloppy tyres on your vehicle you’ll be better off on the snow.

That’s why I think the PI system hasn’t made much sense in the main game, as it’s been tuned taking the snow into account but we of course didn’t know that. That’s why we’re all building rockets that have little grip and just compensating for it with our driving style. Otherwise the Drivatars fly off and leave us struggling to keep up. But you put a big engine in your car and don’t even look at the tyres and it runs rings around them! lol

Grip is the main component in the PI system this time around for whatever reason, but we’ll see soon enough how much PI the system whacks on with the snow tyres. I’m expecting it to be very high jump with how it is now. I mean i can add 2-3 classes on some cars just with the tyres which is far too biased in the PI system. When you can upgrade the transmission and engine for half the cost of some tyres that’s biased. I just assumed it was because of the off-road and super car element. A hypercar in snow? That’s gonna be a fun experiment!

The pi system has encouraged us to build cars that will not work in the snow. Therefore I am saying i does not make sense.

I believe the pi system is the way it is not because of the snow expansion but so they could create 1000hp upgrade kits for a lot of the cars in the main game. I believe we already have evidence of why the pi system was tweaked - so it favours power over grip.

Grip is not the sole factor in a good tune. Grip is however the sole factor of bad tunes in sub-S1 classes.

Generally speaking, only morons would try to make sub-S1 tunes with good grip instead of barely-controllable S-class rockets with tire downgrades, because that means they would be driving painfully underpowered cars due to the massively-overpriced tires.

To be frank, I don’t see why people keep complaining about players generally only choosing S1 and S2 races, when the sub-S1 classes are such a mess to deal with. It’s not just about driving cars that are super-fast; it’s also about driving cars with tunes that aren’t intentionally stupid.

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I’m not so sure. You’re assuming that snow is going to be extremely slick. It should be. But dirt should be a lot slicker than it is in the game too. I have several of those C-class rockets, and the weird thing is that they handle a lot better on dirt than they do on dry asphalt. To put it another way, a car with grippy tires handles much better on asphalt than a 49 Mercury on stock rubber, but it only handles somewhat better on dirt than the Merc. If this carries over to snow, rubber can be dispensed with–again. We’ll have to wait and see. (At this point, we can only speculate.)

It makes sense for snow tires and offroad tires making a huge difference, and you could probably make a case for race tires as well, but a simple tire upgrade from stock tires to performance tires? That’s a bit of a stretch.

Exactly what I was about to say. Adding snow and ice does not excuse the broken PI system. Why not just add snow tires? The system is way too skewed when yo can have 1000hp B class. But one tire upgrade chances class multiple levels.


“Great tires usually leads to doing worse, because the AI cars are increasing power to get the same PI I got with tires, while they seem to have little/no problem holding as much grip as I can during race, regardless of my “way better” tires”

I am aware that its highly unlikely for PG to adjust the PI system, but shouldn’t it be a fairly easy job? I mean all cars are bound to one physics system, meaning that adjustments to how the PI judges grip, power and weight should change the numbers for every car in game.

The ONLY issue I see is for cars that don’t have that many tuning option like the FXX K and all the GTD/GTE racecars. Those ones might end up in S2 far away from 998 (or exceeding it), but as it is rather obvious that their tuning options are tailored in such a way that they end up close to or exactly at 998 in RWD and AWD guise, this could be done for the new PI system as well.

There are lots of people like me who enjoy racing in those arcade physics of the Horizon franchise and the way this game is right now…I don’t see it entertaining me until the next FH game, which FH2 did rather well despite dealing with similiar gameplay issue it shares with FH3 (cough proper Multiplayer racing mode cough) They need to adress this…

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Max I have to question whether that still applies to FH3. The PI system is so skewed here that something is radically different from the past.

I think this last paragraph is emblematic of the problem.

After a lengthy explanation of how they determine PI for STOCK cars, the whole issue of upgrading cars is handled in a 2 sentence paragraph that starts out with the word “lastly”. And then we get a game where 1000hp cars dominate C class. The entire statement shows evidence of thought being put into PI and class as it pertains to stock cars, but it shows no evidence to thought put into how upgrading effects PI and class, and offers no explanation as to they arrived at weighted costs of upgrade parts.

And I submit that their stated method of determining class limits … based on the PI of stock cars … begins to explain how they got the PI system so very, very, very wrong this time around. I’d say less than 5% of stock cars are at a class limit, and I can’t think of one that is and is a match for an optimally upgraded car of the same PI. Ugraded cars should set the class boundaries (even if a function of stock PIs), not the stock ones themselves. Again 1000 hp in C class and those paragraphs don’t contain evidence that it was considered.

I have always thought that the PI system applies to stock / upgraded cars alike.

In JonK’s quote he never mentions stock until that last paragraph.

My reading of it has always been as if the car in whatever form it is in is taken virtually around the test track and PI calculated.

All I know is the difference between upgraded builds for any given pi is much larger than it used to be.

Max I agree that there is no other official info so this is all we have to go by. I would love to know the devs thoughts on the current PI system and why it is the way it is.

I think it can inferred because he talked about how performance matches the real world, the context of how he mentioned the car list, comparing PI numbers between titles. He didn’t mention stock until the last paragraph, but he didn’t mention stock until after he brought up upgrades in the last paragraph. I was surprised by what I read and think the some upgrade results are too convenient for the munber (excellent misspelling of “number”) to have not been planned, but them basing class limits off stock numbers explains a lot and I’m pretty sure that’s what he described. A 800 and S1 900 stock cars do tend to get smoked by upgraded cars of the same PI.

And to base class limits on both stock and upgraded cars would take a lot more work, upgrading and driving so many cars? We know how much time that takes. Seems more reasonable to me they based classes on stock, made general decisions about upgrades (like tires on lower class cars bring it up to at least A), but then let the chips fall … and some of the general upgrade decisions led to more extreme results than were expected. 1000 hp in C seems more like a QC issue than a decision, and I think his statement unintentionally supports that.

I have faith in the observations of high level players who spend a lot of time racing, but until there’s more detail straight from the developer, that’s the best available info to answer solarrios’s question.

I haven’t seen a lot of criticism about the PI number for stock setups, which means their methodology could be fine, it’s just that the upgrade adjustments are skewed. I would think that’s an unavoidable problem with the system in any case - the stock PI relates to one track only. Adjusted PI has to relate to the various actual tracks used in the game.

I always assumed that the test track is flawed compared to the actual tracks. If test track is much more technical then game (where vast majority of it favors speed) the the PI would be skewed to higher cost toward grip when in actuality HP and accel is more desired so the skew and then add in a bit of a tweak to favor AWD and a bit of grip and walla, perfect recipe for 1000hp rockets ships to dominate. The pendulum swings back to FM3

not sure if cross country and automatic tranny have something to do with either. I.e. AI can’t handle high HP and cross country tracks but then that would fly in the face of some of the drivatar issues.

Again be nice if someone from the team spoke up.

Awd is a by product of what else is going on. Easier to get 1000hp through 4 stock tyres than 2.

Whatever has happened it should be seen as a failed experiment and head back 90% towards FH2/FM6 balance.

I still think though that it was deliberate because of the existence of the upgrade hero cars that have premade builds with 1000hp and race tyres.

Wait, if the PI is based on a test track that’s supposed to represent the kind of races in the games, then if the horizon series focuses on more open roads and higher speeds, then shouldn’t power upgrades be rated higher? Not handling? Because if power is more important to those faster races, then shouldn’t that be worth PI, not handling?
Something just doesn’t feel like it’s adding up

Whatever they did it definitely seems intended. What I don’t get is how they go from the AWD domination to remove it only to bring it back and never find a balance along the way in like 5 or 6 games. lol
The test track methodology needs scrapping for Horizon. In motorsport where you have regulated technical driving it’s more appropriate, though not foolproof. But in Horizon they should have a test track the includes everything from the main game. All courses, or at least a combination of all surface types and corners, elevation changes and use that. But i fear they’ve been using the same one for a fair while.

Because the one thing we can all agree on is that this game’s PI system is whack. I should not be beating modern day Ferrari’s in a 40 year old family car.

That is the exact reason why a PI system exists - to allow sub par cars to be upgraded to compete with the Ferraris.

If you win in a stock family car versus Ferrari then I agree.

But at say S1 900 you should be able to compete in any car and sometimes beat Ferraris and sometimes lose.

Also AWD being the winning formula is not like a tick box, it is a by product of choice of test track, physics engine, upgrade ratings etc

In this case it is a byproduct of the pi system leaning way towards power being cheap and grip being expensive. AWD gives grip without costing too much PI.

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