My experience with the state of the game and the new Alfa Performace Championship

Okay, here we go. I thought about it for a while and even though I’m sure not much will be done with this post, I started it anyway.

Why do I think not much can be done with it?

  • I think that the structure of programming and continually building on what was already there can only lead at a certain point to something that no longer works and will eventually have to be "built from the ground up…
  • No one cares enough to actually do it right. It’s just work, right?

First a little about me. I am Dutch and will apologize in advance for my grammar and sentence structure. But I do my best. Also apologies for my sarcasm, but that’s probably due to my age.
I have been an adult for a long time and have a job that requires a lot of waiting, but I am unable to leave my home office. This allows me to use my XBox series X during the day.
Cars and motorsport are my hobby and a major part of my life. So after playing a lot of car games for over 25 years, I think I can speak from experience about what works and what doesn’t.

Let me take everyone through how I experience the game, in this condition and with the Alfa Performance racing series that was released today.

I always drive at level 8 with the strict rules. I don’t think winning is the biggest challenge of racing, but getting the most out of the car you have at your disposal.

So, first the car.
Later scanned forza model, someone will probably see something that is wrong but it looks fine.

Then the first race.
Standard 300 points so what should I do? Oh, a sports exhaust is possible, so we can also do the intake. Always a nice and varied start. Not that the car needed more power, but yes, doing nothing with it is also inconvenient.

Free Practice

Hockenheim ring mini edition.

Nice, I don’t drive here often. Heavy car and no good racing tires or setup.

So I drive my first laps and what stands out:

Cars left and right in the gravel pit. When approaching the pit entrance, there are 3 cars against the guard rails that apparently could not make the turn into the pits. Those heavy cars in combination with the narrow circuit are not a success for the AI.
Something about good programming and, above all: check carefully what you are doing and whether something actually works before you release or apply it. I think this is the basis of anyone who enjoys their work and takes it seriously.

In addition, I see Mercedes and Cadillacs everywhere with widebody kits and bizarre alignment problems. The wheel gaps are really terrible and I think that I personally find this a bigger problem than the super old scanned cars.
Again I wonder, who tests this and who then thinks: Fine, don’t change or adjust anything anymore. We’ll move on and we’ll see. Did you really think that no one plays the game? That’s strange, why did they do that while Horizon is already so far along that we can even use the spacers?

Then the target time in the practice session. Not possible with a standard car. I also found it funny to see that when I adjusted my fuel for the race, the system also indicated that with minimal fuel I would still be more than a second short.
Again, I know this doesn’t happen, but who tests and checks this?

Also special: why can the AI competition already have racing tires and do I have to make do with a standard car?

Next thing we can talk about. Make the race classes more exciting by certain things such as restriction:

  1. Tires all the same. This is how competition and racing classes are made.
  2. Limit weight and power. This is how competition and racing classes are created.
  3. drivetrain

This is also something I don’t understand. With everything that’s already there from previous Forzas, why not tweak the worst working things properly? Now it’s too late, it’s already in the structure and DNA of the game so it can no longer be adjusted.

I may have been thinking about this too simply, but wouldn’t the entire car and points system be better if it only looked at:

  • weight
  • weight distribution
  • power torque and horsepower and where on the powerband
  • wheelbase
  • drag and downforce
  • width and roll height
  • tire width
  • tire compound

From this basis a time over a circuit will probably be determined. If there is too big a gap between cars, make sure they carry ballast. Ballast that we can place ourselves, where we want in the car. So that we can choose what we consider a good weight distribution. I really don’t need a Porsche with 50/50 weight distribution and 245 tires at the front and 315 at the rear.

But we go further. I now have less desire to finish it properly, so the pace is picking up.

The race wasn’t that good. Due to the small circuit, the 1st car, which was 10 seconds ahead on its medium racing tires, had to overtake the stragglers… Yes, the cars that continuously drive off the track at level 8.
But then overtaking the cars that are going to be put on a lap. So that doesn’t work for the AI. Something about flags and the AI continuing to race even if it is a lap behind.

Okay, next race.

Didn’t get enough points for better tires, so adjust the width.

We’re going to the Nurburgring. Rain.

When starting the practice session, the top of my dashboard is suddenly gone. That’s not possible, a car that they themselves reintroduce as new, let’s play this with them, that has a non-existent dashboard. A bit strange, who checks that? And I play on an XBox, a closed system with hardware they know.

The race was okay, there were far fewer cars outside the circuit than the previous race.

So we’ll continue upgrading after the race. I think the new rear bumpers that create a kind of diffuser and generate positive downforce are a good addition. Too bad it’s not possible on every car. But it gives me the opportunity where available to make a more stable car. I personally never use the forza rear wing. I’d rather come last than have to drive that thing around. But that’s something I won’t go into further.

But then that rear bumper and hood. They are indeed missing.

So I’m wondering again who tests…

Oh nevermind.

Sorry for the long winded nonsense… I’m going back to work, maybe I’ll do another race later, maybe not… Don’t think anyone will worry about that

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It says a lot when people prefer writing to playing.

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Something more fun than playing the game is watching it slowly shed all players and seeing the Steam review rating plummet after each update/sale (currently $56 and 32% positive ratings).

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Since I came to terms with the fact that my money was lost, it has been the joy of watching the demise of this contraption and those responsible for it.

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that’s not a great way to look at things. ultimately if this thing crashes and burns, the people who will feel the brunt of its failure won’t be the people in charge who led the project to ruin, it’ll be the on-the-ground devs who made the product they were told to make.

pretty much never do the people responsible for poorly-conceived or mismanaged products ever face any real consequences. they can just fail upwards forever. whether it’s gaming or any other industry, failure always screws over the little guy who had no say in things and was not responsible for the failure.

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Well, aren’t you mr. positive.

The whining of innocent people taking orders is just embarrassing. There is also a responsibility which troop you join

I think I understand what you’re saying, and I’d personally like some things differently/more like other simulators as well (ABS, ideally with telemetry output) and TC per car instead of globally) - I’m just not sure it’s something we can expect from Forza. The things you mentioned can be had in PC (and some console) simulators like iRacing, ACC, AC etc., at least to some extent, so maybe you’d be happier with playing something like this? It’s an honest suggestion, based on what you mentioned you’d like to be able to do in racing games.

It’s true what you say. I have to admit that I’m also really looking forward to AC2. The only problem is that I like to play with my controller on a couch or chair. A simulation setup is not something I can do. I think that if AC2 can be played well and competitively with a controller, there will be a lot of people who are disappointed with the new Forza there. In a way, I think that’s a shame because for many of us, maybe not rightfully anymore, Forza has a lot of happy memories.

For a majority of the complainers (and for the record - NOT haters) I think I speak for the lot when I say this. We don’t want the game to fail. The complaints have been offered as constructive criticism with a desire to improve the game. Ok, so sometimes it hasn’t always sounded so “constructive” and at times ventured into destructive and down right nasty. But T10 MUST bear some of the burden for pushing it into that realm due to their everlasting silence towards their community of players. A little communication would have gone a long way. T10 are you listening yet? Any one of the major complainers would have been more than glad to enter into a conversation with the developers and discuss changes within the game. There’s no desire from the development team to get the community any further involved than through the (very obscure and under utilized) suggestions hub.

The complainers (whinners, haters) call them what you may, love this game. And really want nothing more than for it to return to it’s true forza roots. Return to a Motorsport, racing tradition that started with FM1. Become a real racing game, not a grind fest test drive and track modeling adventure.

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Just chiming to say that people who complain a lot about the game do want it to succeed. I was one of them. I haven’t been this vocal because I couldn’t care less about things going forward. N-ring will come sooner? Cool, but I won’t bother installing the game just to drive on it. There are Alfa Romeo now? Alright, but again it’s too late for me.

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Unfortunately I cannot agree with that. T10/MS behaved badly towards paying customers. It would have been correct if we had been given the option to keep the game and wait for improvement or to get the money back. The game might get even better. But the ugly face of the MS/T10 consortium remains. I bought the PS5 and GT7. I don’t need FM anymore. But we still have a score to settle.

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this… i already said in multiple threadposts

the game stats are no where balanced , its worst i have seen in a racing game ever…

the game heavily heavily favours F1 style handling and gives it no speed penalty.
thats why all the cars in every class in top off the leaderboard are all cars with crazy high handling and low power.

in earlier forza’s (pre forza 7 cause thats garbage 2) you could build whatever you wanted and be competitive with it to a certain extend , but this game you cant do nothing with cars lower than 4.0 handling in A class

4.0 handling is like 6.1 handling fm6 wich is pretty high… in fm23 4.0 handling is low wich makes every class a lot slower ( A class in fm6 had like 380-450hp avarage , in fm23 its 370hp max avarage :man_facepalming:)

so this problem makes 90% off the cars in game useless… all the heavy german saloons ,muscle cars ,classics, EVs all cant reach 4.0 handling so they are all rubbish .

cause speed cars dont work in this game cause the speed difference on the straight isnt there… you need atleast 8-10 car lengths on the straight to make up with loss in the corners…
but in fm23 a speed build only creates a gap of 3-4 car lenghts and the speed difference in the corners are like F1 car agianst a semi truck…

in fm6 you could make a 8-10 car length gap on the straight and then you would be caught within around 3-4 corners wich is good and balanced. in fm23 you get a 3-4 car length gap and you get overtaken after 1 corner… really balanced.

to bad forza isnt gonna do anything about this cause i play forza for over 12 years and they never listen… so this is gonna die very slowely

whats the point off class racing if it only favours go karts with F1 handling and not your german sedan or american muscle? class racing SHOULD BE BALANCED with pros and cons of every build . in fm23 it looks like handling builds get all pros and no cons. and speed build get all the cons and no pros…

i dont care that much about the: sound , graphics ,penalty system, leveling system, skillrating etc etc

cause the essentails for a forza for me are class racing with all kinds off builds like they started with back in fm1. and the essentails arent there so i quite this game aslong this isnt fixed like my 15-17 other diehard forza buddies i used to race on fm6 . cause i am never ever gonna touch a formula mazda or exocet, i dont want to be that tryhard kid, never ever

@Stingray81nl, English is my primary language, and sometimes i don’t do as well with it as you did in your post.

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But the old way was just power builds, there wasnt a balance at all. V12 and awd swaps for every car wasnt good for the game nevermimd being extremely unrealistic. If you look at gt3 cars compared to their road car counterparts they have much less horsepower, but rely on weight reduction and aero to make them into a race car and not just a fast car. Handling makes the difference, not power.

Theres still tracks like daytona and le mans where power builds will work, but the majority of tracks in the game would certainly skew more towards requiring better handling.

Its certainly fun to drop a v8 into a miata, but it wouldnt be a good race car. Unfortunately most of the cars in this game are road cars so they inevitably dont always work as a race car even with upgrades. I do believe that tweaks should be made to the pi system as well as restrictions on open wheel cars in multiplayer lobbies, but i dont think either of those things will happen.

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Tell that to Carroll Shelby ok? Remember that thingy he did with the AC ace and 289 and the 427 Ford V8’s? Made some pretty fantastic and record setting race cars with those “Miata sized” cars and V8 engines.

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Let’s try to keep the Shelby thing in perspective.
The 289 FIA Cobra was one of the best balanced sports cars of it’s era.
The 427 was mostly brute force, understeered until you stabbed the throttle and sent the back end around.
There is a reason the Daytona coupe only had the small block in it.

On top of all that, the road courses of the day were mostly speed tracks with gradual turns and long braking zones. The 427 (if it came out today) wouldn’t do as well on the modern tight technical tracks we have now.

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Your assessment is basically spot on. However, on today’s tracks, in today’s classes. The Shelby 289 Cobra (upgraded brakes and tires) or a similar Miata or Fiat 124 with a V8 and modern high quality brakes and UHP shaved or modern racing tires would be as effective on the track today as the AC Cobra was in It’s day.

Of course now if you drop a HEMI or LS in one of the little giants just plan on sticking to the drag strip cause the only corner you’ll have to take is the slow one at the end of the quarter.

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go tell me wich car had a V12 swap with awd and on wich game and class ? ? you just make things up…

and forza is never been a sim game did you know?

but please tell me why are there cars like the dodge hellcat in the game if it makes no change ? why do we have the PI system and class racing if its not balanced and the dodge has no change eventough IT HAS THE SAME PI !!!

and on wich track v12 swapped awd cars where meta? you just make things up…

fm6 leaderboard car alfa 33 stradale A class high handling only like 300hp …
fm3-4 leaderboard cars honda nsx-r , lancia 037 ,lotus elise A class all high handling… i see no V12 SWAPPED AWD CAR … ALL CARS HAVE NOT VERY HIGH HP…

like stop making things up and stop saying ‘‘its unreleastic’’ like you ever gonna see a bmw isetta ( the bubble car) drive at a race track agianst a mercury cougar but in forza you can !!! like why would they add a car like a bmw isetta if you cant use it for racing ?
its like COD bringing out a gun you cant use…

or drive a pontiac aztek agianst a ferrari F50 . like if its not realistic … then tell me whats the point off adding them in the game wich is baised (since the beginning of forza the birth) on BALANCED CLASS RACING?
why do we have stat points (handling ,accel etc) why do we have PI index , why do we have classes ?

like in your eyes only the formula cars need to be fast around everything thing cause it makes sence , but your knowledge doesnt make sense, let me tell you…

in DTM , BTCC , WEC ,BLAINCPAIN ETC ETC they have something called SUCCESS BALLAST and BALANCE OF PERFORMANCE…
its to make it EVEN for all kinds off cars to have a chance EVENTOUGH some cars are a strange concept or have no chance IN THE BASICS .
like a subaru levorg (like in forza) is heavier and so slower , a honda civic (like in forza ) is lighter and faster …so after winning in championships like BTCC it got BALLAST WEIGHT to EVEN OUT the playing field and make it BALANCED hence the name (BOP = BALANCE OF PERFORMANCE…)

if this wouldnt be a thing car manufacters would drop out cause they have no chance …

on the 24h nurburgring the porsches of manthey racing kept winning over and over agian so they kept giving it ballast till eventoughly a ferrari won previous year…

like if we keep seeing the same OP car win and its even a bit boring and suspected (like a manthey porsche) people stop watching the sport , same in this game if people in CLASS racing keep using the same OP broken cars people gonna get bored and go away…

but please tell me please explain to me why do we then have cars like a heavy EV or powerfull luxury german sedan or a true american muscle in the game (forza) with a PI index and stats , if in your eyes only a glorified go kart needs to win everything ? then why dont they have car DIVISION racing instead ?

the point of forza is TO BUILD EVERY CAR TO A CERTAIN CLASS AND HAVE A CHANGE TO WIN OR COME CLOSE … like whats the point of 7 classes if a dodge charger hellcat with 707hp in A class on mugello is 5 seconds slower a lap than a 180hp go kart mazda ? shouldnt the mazda be in S class if its 5 seconds a lap faster on a BIG TRACK ?

Yep, that’s it. Report anything that doesn’t agree with you “viewpoint”…lol.