Context, they say, is everything. Or in this case, it’s ‘five.’ Five of the Mustangs are from 2018 alone, and shockingly/not shockingly (go ahead and feign shock) they are largely all the same car, or in the words of another, ‘only a minute’s adjustment’ from each other. That alone qualifies as ‘too many Mustangs.’ In fact, just going by your own minute/adjustment metric, nearly all of BMW and it’s myriad of M-something’s would be wiped out (which is fine by me, but I digress…). I took a quick peek at Porsche’s 911’s and counted a very scientific tally of ‘a bunch’ from 2012 to present.
But to what end is all this fuzzy math, you ask? Well, I will bet you dollars to donuts that most players would be totally a-ok if we saw a reduction of differant 2018 Ford Mustang variants and in their stead received more models from underrepresented brands just like you already suggested in unwitting support of the point GALNET was trying to make.
It’s funny this even arose here to begin with as I was about to post a tongue-in-cheek/not really/actually kind of serious Horizon 4 Car Wish-U-Wouldn’t List for ManteoMax, and literally my first two items were No More Mustangs and BMW’s.
I was pretty fine with how it used to be in, like we have certain definite models from certain era, like '87 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am GTA from '80s era 3rd. generation Firebirds. '95 Chevrolet Corvette ZR-1 is pinnacle C4 generation, and so on. While it’s not perfect solution, for example '92 Ferrari 512 TR, while having similar looks, it’s actually redesigned version of '80s Testarossa, famous supercar from Miami Vice and featured in arcade game Outrun and PC game Test Drive game in the 80’s. While '80s Testarossa is cultural icon, I don’t really have a problem that not being in the game, as we have sort of definitive version. And that Fiat might not be easily persuaded to licence '80’s Testarossa.
I would gladly trade few of those new Mustangs with minimal differences to '50’s era Ford Thunderbird, which might not be competitive against 'Vette, but there’s Plymouth Fury, Hudson Hornet and Chevy Bell Air, and Ford Pickup Truck from the era. So sometimes adding a new car might add something to how races blueprinted for that era of cars would look and feel.
We have many Nissan Skyline’s in game. Many because they are classics, but do we really need that many? '87 Nissan Skyline GTS-R (R31) is great to have in game. It’s definite model of beginning of design phase in Nissan and in game it also gives option to race it against other '80’s legends, while remaining in C-class (stock).
Skyline GT-R V-Spec (1993) and Skyline GT-R V-Spec (1997) is a bit different matter. In stock they have 13 points difference in PI. This might be a bigger car culture thing related to Japan, but I would probably be fine with just '97 for '90’s era and so on.
What I hope could be taken to developers from this, is that I hope that mile long car request lists would go mostly ignored. I have spent quite a lot of time with Horizon 4, have over 1000 races, tens of millions of credits, have almost every car, most via Wheelspins and rewards, and I haven’t yet tried most of cars I have. I find it difficult to believe that all people wishing 20-40 more cars to Horizon 4, would actually even try them all in game. Horizon IMO, doesn’t need every possible car ever built, but right cars and right amount from different decades.
Having the latest and best poses a problem sometimes. The 512 TR and E30 M3 are icons of the 80s but can’t be used in an 80s championship because the actual MY in the game for those cars is from the 90s. Besides… The 512 TR isn’t even the final version of the Testarossa, lol. That honor goes to the 512 M, which people tend to hate on because it lacks the pop-up headlights and the square taillights of the earlier models.
You are right about 512 M and it’s indeed hated because it doesn’t look enough like older icon. But I’m still comfortable with decision PG made with their selection, I think it’s the best compromise there is.
While it takes a bit of extra effort, you can create custom lineup (with more or less success) via Blueprints. For example I have upgraded '82 911 3.3 Turbo for this sort of races to compete against '92 Ferrari 512 TR and whatever there is and that’s been 80’s esque enough for me. For '70s theme '69 Ferrari Dino 246 GT covers the base up to '74 (production end) and '84 Ferrari 288 GTO taking the place also of Ferrari 308 (1975 - 1985) creates a bit iffy situation, but well, you can take '82 Porsche 911 (930) in this custom '70’s esque lineup too, as production of 930 series started in '75 and with 3.3 engine in '78.
I prefer older cars in single player but there is this whole trend which is actually driving some '80s cars, I mean real ones, upwards at least in where I live. There are new icons like like second generation Mazda RX-7’s (in game '90 RX-7 Savanna, which I think might actually be GTU produced in '89-'90), '94 Nissan Fairlady Z we have in game is Z32 generation introduced in '89, Nissan 240SX SE in game is pinnacle of first generation Silvia’s introduced in '89 and '92 Club K is from generation introduced in '88 and yeah, '80s Nissan Skyline is one of those new icons too. Mitsubishi have models with similar following and if you followed car request thread there were quite few requests older Toyota Supra models. I don’t recall the third generation Supra’s was initially well received back in the day, but lineup has following for aesthetics value or something even today and so on, and those are just Nippon cars.
So those cars aren’t in the game just because of Generation X nostalgia, but there are other very good reasons too. Same goes for car selection for decades before. Now the question is if Playground Games are aware of this anymore? Or if they are in Horizon 4 just because they were in earlier games in series and so easily ported to H4? I mean game studio is in the just another workplace, people come, people go.
We have got quite similar cars like couple of Mustangs and then it looks like every quite recent BMW model that company decided to slap with M sticker. I also think car makers don’t mind the publicity, but not every model is going to be a classic in the future. They are going to be forgotten like say certain Mazda 323 Sports Saloons, which were actually quite good cars for performance, comfort and price. Despite that 323’s aren’t in the game and frankly Horizon 4 doesn’t need them.
What would help the situation IMO would be if custom line ups for races could be saved for future use on other routes, existing or custom. Then using Festival angle, allow players easily create custom championships and bring back custom Bucket lists and allow players to add them into mix, then allow sharing these challenges to other players. In practice this would allow layers create their own Forza festival events with their own theme, be that Classic Racers from the '50s and '60s or mixed decade event with practically '80s cars or with recent A class RWD vehicles, just for example.
There is quite a lot they could do. Of course interface needs to support synergy and all that.
Yeah, I wasn’t necessarily trying to “counter-point” his post. I just never thought of it in that way. Licensing for cars has always been a mixed bag (Toyota anyone?). And I get why sometimes car manufacturers get “prickly” when it comes to allowing cars in these type of games. I wish there was a way to allow for more transparency on the “whys” and “hows”. I’m a huge fan of the slightly off-beat cars and would love to see more.
I will always view a large number of cars in game as Playground/Turn10 working their butts off to get said licenses. That’s never a bad thing.
Look at it this way, it could always be worse…There are more Mustangs in Motorsport than there are in Horizon
PG have told me I am forbidden from communicating anything at all.
The NDA that I signed states that any contents, verbal, text, visual or otherwise cannot be shared to the broader community in any capacity.
This is disappointing as well as being shortsighted, as some of the stuff I heard yesterday would have definitely helped clarify some popular issues and misconceptions.
What I can say is that, based on the feedback I have received so far (here and r/forza), there is something of a disconnect between the developers and users, in terms of what is and what isn’t an issue.
Together, I believe we may be able to bridge this gap, perhaps in the form of an official user group, that in order to join, drivers must sign up to be legally bound to a certain level of confidentiality Whatever it takes for PG to trust us enough to talk to each other openly.
If anyone thinks this is a good idea, and something they might be interested in getting involved with, please let me know.
This is pretty normal. Companies pay people a lot of money to be their public voice, and the message from the company needs to be their message alone. If you were employed in that role you wouldn’t want random people undermining your message.
You disagree with the message these people are choosing to convey, but the solution to that is for the company to employ people who will make a better choice of message, not to open up the conveying of that message to random people.
That’s not universal. There are countries where parties such as businesses cannot force NDA (or similar agreement) with private citizens based on private citizens constitutional rights.
We are all random people here and if PG cannot plan ahead contents of this sort of visits (which whole point is sorta questionable if everything is under NDA) that’s on them. I also think hired staff for communicating with customers and fans are doing their jobs within possibilities they have. If you have information indicating that this isn’t the case, please do share it here and instead of conveying that hired community management isn’t performing in their job within parameters set by PG.
Just the bit I quoted: “some of the stuff I heard yesterday would have definitely helped clarify some popular issues and misconceptions”.
So someone has gone and talked to them and feels there is information that would help if made public. The people employed by the company have a different view, otherwise they would have shared this information with the public already. I don’t know who is right and who is wrong, but there is a difference of opinion. But IF the people paid by the company to do this job are the ones with the wrong ideas, then the answer isn’t to open up the company’s message to being communicated in an uncontrolled manner, it’s to employ people who have the right idea about what should be communicated.
There’s not enough information to make that conclusion. Misconceptions regarding what? Leagues? bugs? PI system? Ultimately I can guess it all comes down to if developers perceived customer needs match the actual customer needs. For what I have seen people gathering the data are actively doing that in these forums and in Forza Reddit.
But no matter. How this stuff actually works is that company or subsidiary like PG, has information strategy regarding what goes in and what goes out. Operative level executes that strategy, they don’t make the policy of Microsoft, much less handle NDA’s. See, NDA’s are instruments, they are not good, not bad, just tools. Community managers don’t handle matters like NDA’s. Those matters are for legal reasons reserved only for those whom right to procuration, specifically NDA’s signed by personnel without procuration rights, isn’t a valid agreement in legal sense. Procuration rights are typically granted only to senior management and there are very good reasons why it’s that way.
It’s a matter of policies and community managers cannot discuss about that because they themselves are bound by NDA. Say if someone with procuration rights gets every possible angle of fan meeting covered with NDA just because, hey, cool tools, and happens to shoot himself and subsidiary in the foot in the process, there’s nothing community management can do about it, nor should. Not their position.
I wanted to give you a benefit of doubt, but I think you are just pointing your finger in a matter you really don’t have much of an idea. And I don’t see how this helps me as customer nor developers to address certain concerns. There’s old saying “Don’t shoot the messenger”, you know maybe that saying lives on for a reason?
You also seem also awfully trusting for a guy who haven’t even bothered to write back in this, his own topic on official forum. I want to give him a benefit of doubt too, but collecting email addresses and stuff via Reddit, maybe in the US and/or UK there are means to hold private citizen or some party (activity group) accountable based on forums posts without any sort of other legal agreement, but that’s not true for the entire world and Horizon customer base is global.
I’m not sure what it is you think I don’t have much idea about. My only observation has been that it is normal for a company to want to retain control of its corporate message. It would not be normal for a company to invite a member of the public to talk to them in private, give them information that the company has chosen to keep private, and let them go away and make it public for them.
I honestly don’t understand what your problem is with the bit you put in bold, as it seems fairly self evidently true to me, and not something I would have expected to be seen as in any way controversial. You’ve mentioned community liaison, shooting the messenger etc, but nowhere did I mention a specific role or shooting the messenger. I talked about the company employing people “who have the right idea about what should be communicated”. Clearly this relates to the role(s) in the company where people choose what should be communicated, so is not advocating shooting the messenger.
I can se how it may appear that way. The whole forum has been wonky for me for few days now. Even today when I checked my topics I get to posts from days past, not posts that are actually new. I use MS Edge without any extras on Windows 10 with latest updates. Unfortunate that this happens but how forum works is outside of my control, not my job and so, to be honest I really don’t give a damn.
That said, you could had addressed my questions anyway, you choose not to. Should I be impressed by that? Well, I’m not, like at all. But to be fair I suppose you referred to my questions in what is your latest post in topic while I’m writing this.
I don’t speak for anyone else in this, but what I have been looking for is transparency about how you are going to achieve your goal. If you are going to go through this sharing your methodology is IMO right move to do.
Trust is a psychological thing and it’s a bit not easy to get there when it’s difficult to imagine why would anyone put up all this effort for a game. I don’t mean to belittle you, I don’t wanna put you in bad light, but for all the possible causes in the world, an entertainment product, really?
Which sort of leads to next question, how do perceive us, customers? I don’t think I speak for the whole community here, but I don’t believe I speak only for myself here either if I say that as soon as some studio come up with something like Horizon 3 with physics from H4, I’m gone. It’s not about the brand, platform, or actually anything but the experience.
I tried to sum up how many times I have switched racing game series to other racing game series since the late '80’s and it started to look like an essay. So instead I just hope you are aware that while I’m sure there are many long timers who could be called fans of Forza franchise on these forums and in Reddit, not everyone cares what brand is put on (virtual) disc case.
It’s not hostility towards anything either but about life actually. There are many great things in life and maybe there’s bucket of gold somewhere at the end of (H4) rainbow, but some may think life is too short for chasing things like that.
There are three studios on forzamotorsport.net Turn 10 for Forza Motorsport series, Playground Games for Forza Horizon and Electric Square with their Forza Street. I haven’t visited Motorsports forums for ages and I don’t have any idea who actually manages Forza Street forum. Since this topic is on Horizon forums, I take it you mean Playground Games.
It’s not that PG isn’t listening. Features that were requested and implemented. I may have forgotten some
Route Creator feature was added
Garage was expanded
For multiplayer anti-ramming and anti-wallriding fixes
Drift-adventure was added
New lobbies / enhanced existing lobbies
Wheel spacers upgraded option added to many cars
Rivals mode was added
At the same time there’s been controversies. Censorship of music, and you can BTW email ESBR and ask how much they had to do with it, Weekly playlist, I’m personally pretty fine with it except for dailies, not everyone wants to use Boneshaker, LEGO expansion and I’m curious if Trac-tor actually dominates B-class lobbies. This two steps forward one step back may make people who got this for multiplayer worry if this game has staying power, maintain enough player base to keep leagues worth playing.
Maybe it isn’t exactly what you think, yet maybe you aren’t entirely wrong. You appear to come from industrial side of things and while entertainment business is also industry there may be things that work differently there.
Hope you have everyone’s personal wishlist written down
I know this wasnt what you intended with your initial post but it’s the way it always becomes
Good intentions but people take advantage of that
