With Horizon 5 now available I finally found the time to update my in-depth Horizon 4 Tuning Guide with all the changes that I discovered so far in Horizon 5.
Contents
Part 1 - Horizon Tuning Basics
Understanding car types, body types and drive types.
Part 2 - Road Tuning
Setting up cars to work good for road and street racing.
Part 3 - Off-road Tuning
Setting up cars to work good for dirt and cross country racing.
Part 4 - Grip and Speed Tuning
Setting up cars to work better on grip or speed oriented tracks.
Part 5 - Season and Weather Tuning
Setting up cars to work best in specific seasons and weather conditions.
Fairly interesting read but your calculations are wrong(ish). The formula, which predates Forza Motorsports 3 is (MinSprRt-MaxSprRt)*WeightDistro+MinSprRt. This is also what my calculator runs off of that has been used quite a bit. The problem your formula will run into is the compression scale of it. So I will try to explain this, and no, I don’t take credit for coming up with the formula, but I take credit into making it easier for everyone to use.
The formula you are using means you take the entire spring rate and put it towards the weight ratio of the vehicle, which means you will have an X amount of compression needed that is not usable. Which throws off the entire care. And your numbers for your ARB or way low, causing everything to be a lot more loose than anything.
First, you get your changeable values, which is 1389.5 - 277.9 = 1111.6. Now, let’s say we want the front spring rate, we multiple 1111.6 * .54 (because 54% is .54 of 1) which makes it 600.264. Now, we re add the 277.9 back to the equation, which makes it 878.164. That is where the middle ground for the weight distribution is. The same formula can be used for the read, ARB, and the stiffness’ which means your car would be “zero” out for the entire car. No excess roll, no unsprung weight, just pure balance.
Thanks for your detailed comments. Always appreciate feedback from other tuners.
As for the supposedly wrong formulas: you may want to checkout my QuickTune H5 app, it’s free to try for the 3 starters cars and uses the same exact formulas as described in the tuning guide.
If you have tested the app and still think the formulas are wrong please report back.
I know the formula you are using, and it has been around for just as long as the other formula. The one main problem is there is none of the “preload” define in it. That’s why you subtract the minimum rate and add it back on. Another thing is a lot of the things suggested from your tuning is set a bit too soft. Nothing wrong with it, but it isn’t everyone’s cup of tea. So on my calculator, I built it to even everything out and it is up to the individual tuner to fine tune to themselves. For instance, people who like softer rides, or a more stiff, rugged rear set up.
Then we get to the bump stiffness. Your guide has it dead set at 63% which isn’t always the sweet spot. Generally the tuner has to figure that out for the individual car which is generally 50-75% of the rebound stiffness. This is also shown on my calculator which is based off of the old guide I provided. Each one of the formula’s we are using are from the olden days and are both pretty good and it has divided the community for several years throughout the lifespan of Forza, and of course everyone else looks at Forza’s tuning in a weird way since it only represents front and back and not all 4 corners, which may be changing from the news about the new Motorsports where they are overhauling suspension.
By no means am I “trashing” the website that you are apart of, but it uses a different formula method and can tend to feel twitchy to some people, or too soft. Also, I think some of the values need to be changed by looking at the Min/Max settings and adjusting to make it more accurate.
My new job barely has me playing anything lol. But I don’t really race, I am a pure drifter. I have always been that way and have set several high numbers just myself, and others have gotten more than I have in certain zones. And a race wouldn’t settle much because it could be argued about driver skill vs the actual tune. I have seen your site, several times and a lot of people enjoy using the app. That’s cool and other people have set fantastic racing lines and record laps. As for me, I have helped several people learn to drift and tune with mine.
Your app offers a full on set up. Tell me this, tell me and out pops a full tuning set up. Awesome, you did a great job getting all of that information into an easy to use app. But what gave those numbers? how did everything come together? That is what my calculator shows, the back ended things. Anyone can bicker about what’s better or the best, but it isn’t the best for everyone. This seems very eerily similar to another “Let’s settle this” moment almost 6 years ago with another user who tuned for real vehicles that they tuned for their real life drifter. That’s cool and all, but didn’t apply to Forza tuning or physics.
Your app also gives out for Downforce, braking force, differentials, ect. Even Camber and Toe adjustments. Mine, is just for a zero balanced suspension. Not for turning, not for straight line speed differences or anything else besides balancing the chasis all around. Building my own car for a comp would then be completely obsolete because I would tune all of those aspects to my taste and liking, which is beyond what the tuning calculator I have created is based on. Unless you are suggesting i leave everything else at stock settings, and tune the suspension, and just send it.
Not sure why you went defensive either. Especially after I said this tuning method was used in Forza Motorsports 3, and so was mine. It just means both methods have been extremely well ran and upkept to this moment for them to both be viable. Whichever the case, have fun with your app.
I went defensive just because you plain said my formulas are wrong, wouldn’t you do the same when someone tells you that about your calc?
I guess we have different meanings of wrong or right: my definition of right is when it gets you the fastest possible lap time (same driver of course) - and yes it needs to play well with the rest of the settings. So looking only on springs doesn’t make much sense from my point of view.
I constantly check my tunes against other top tunes because there is always something you can learn from others. I would not be able to come up with the app without learning and help from other tuners. In fact participating in tuning comps was probably the most valuable source of information for me. Being able to compare tunes for the exact same build is the only way to tell if your right or wrong.
When you think you know everything- that won’t make you any better.
And to quote you: „ But what gave those numbers? how did everything come together?“ - That’s exactly the point of that Tuning Guide.
That quote was looking at your app specifically. Which has 5K+ downloads (QuickTune H4) with plenty of good remarks, and a few bad ones too. I also see you reply to most if not all of them for additional information, but whether you get that or not isn’t shown. I am sure it’s frustrating seeing your hard work getting a 1 star because they want a tune for a A800 car and the tuning comes back to a nearly stock setting, which still shouldn’t happen regardless. Or they are wanting something for a top speed tune and put in the information on how they want it, and it comes up vastly different than what they had it tuned at just messing around. 4.2 * out of 5 isn’t bad at all, especially with a $4.99 charge. And over 5K downloads since release at the end of Nov 2018 is pretty good too.
But it isn’t for everyone. I know I don’t give a flat tune out. But then again, in the same time frame of you releasing this app, I have 19,832 views and just as many uses on my calculator in the FH4 forum, and another 10,189 for FH5, and the base suspension is out for free. Why do I not do all of the other tuning? For the same exact reason you were getting 1 and 2 stars, or even the 3 star someone gave you but mentioned they have you the 3 star because it has tuning options besides straight drag. It is unneeded stress from outside sources.
Sure, you can have the fastest times in racing, and be known as the #1 tuner for racing. Congratulations! Me? I rather help people get that first step into tuning. Show them some tricks and tips and let them learn the impact of tuning their own car. I am a firm believer to people should tune their own car, or have the open tune option back so people can fine tailor it to themselves to better learn. I did the entire tuning look up, i’ve down the sharing of tunes out, and got tired of the random BS. But ever since I made the calculator to do the base set up of the suspension, i’ve had 0 bad remarks. Absolutely 0. Which is easier to deal with then seeing someone bomb a rating on a side job, or call out a service as having “rating” bots attached to it. Someone mentions clunky UI and you come right back with a response to their review and nothing. I say to heck with that and just not deal with them.
As I said, you did a nice job with the guide and the app itself, but negativity in the world makes me not want anything to do with more than what I have provided. Take it as how you want, but I am going back to enjoy the 2nd half of my 12 hour shift at work.
It seems I missed an important bit when it comes to tuning the new available 7-, 8-, 9- and 10-speed race gearboxes.
I’ve updated the Gearing section in Part 2 - Road Tuning with regard to 7-, 8-, 9- and 10-speed race gearboxes.
TLDR
The new available 7-, 8-, 9-, or 10-speed race gearboxes generally use a higher reference final drive than the Standard 6-speed race gearbox. That means they require a higher final drive tuning than the Standard 6-speed race gearbox for best performance.
Not to do with your writeup, just that in the H1 and '05 M3, I’ve had builds where 6/8/10 speed boxes gave 799 PI while 7 or 9 speeds gave 800 in context.
I tend to use the lowest final drive possible, both for a tall reverse gear, and increased control over the shift points between the highest gears (small final # = large gear # = less % change per 0.01)
Changed in Horizon 5
Diff Distr.: In Horizon 5 differential distribution depends on the installed differential:
Race Diff: RWD Accel + 50% (2% + 48%),
Rally Diff: RWD Accel + 26% (2% + 24%)
Offroad Diff: RWD Accel + 14% (2% + 12%)
Aero
Extreme Power Cars
Changed in Horizon 5: Cars with extreme power (>= 2*stock power) simply require to double front and rear downforce for best performance:
RWD: front min * 2 / rear max
FWD / AWD: front max / rear min * 2
Somehow I missed out on an important part in the tuning guide when it comes to damper tuning for Dirt and Cross Country tunes, so I’ve updated the damping section in Part 3 - Off-road Tuning.
TLDR
Dirt and Cross Country tunes generally require lower damping than road tunes to compensate for a bumpier driving surface with lower grip than roads. The required damping offset depends on the type of installed suspension and if it is a modern car (Modern, Early Modern) or an older car (Vintage, Early Vintage, Pre-War). Generally older cars require a higher damping offset than modern cars.
Due to the increased rally suspension damping range in Horizon 5 over Horizon 4 (now 1-20, same as for race suspension instead of 1-10 in Horizon 4), dirt and cross country tunes require slightly higher rebound than in Horizon 4 when using rally suspension.
It seems Horizon 5 offers more grip and speed tuning options than Horizon 5 so I’ve updated all sections in Part 4 - Grip and Speed Tuning to address the changes to grip and speed tuning in Horizon 5.
TLDR
Horizon 5 has more diverse speed and grip tuning as compared to Horizon 4 and now also supports medium speed and medium grip tuning which is more inline with what Forza 7 offers in terms of grip and speed tuning.
I’ve updated Alignment and Gearing sections of Part 2 - Road Tuning with regard to caster tuning for race cars and transmission tuning for rally and off-road cars.
TLDR
Alignment
Changed in Horizon 5: race cars and race trucks now generally work best with a caster of 6.0.
Gearing
Rally and Off-road Cars
Changed in Horizon 5: Rally and off-road cars generally require higher final drive tuning than road cars for best performance. This also means that the final drive should never drop below a minimum final drive to ensure high enough overall gearing. For rally cars final drive should not drop under 2.70, for off-road cars final drive should not drop below 3.20
There have been a few misconceptions regarding transmission tuning so I’ve updated the Gearing section in Part 2 - Road Tuning with regard to 6-,7-,8-,9- and 10-speed gearboxes, drivetrain swaps and low gearing cars.
TLDR
Cars with 6-,7-,8-,9, 10-speed Race Gearbox
The new Standard 6-,7-,8-,9- and 10-speed race gearboxes generally don’t require different final drive tuning than the normal Race gearbox, the related section has been removed from the guide.
Cars with Drivetrain Swaps
Drivetrain swap gearboxes require different final drive tuning depending if an AWD or RWD drivetrain swap has been performed. AWD drivetrain swap gearboxes require lower final drive tuning while RWD drivetrain swap gearboxes require higher final drive tuning than the Standard Forza race gearbox.
AWD drivetrain swap gearboxes require to reduce final drive by 0.5, RWD drivetrain swap gearboxes require to increase final drive by 0.5. The stock AWD drivetrain swap gearbox requires to reduce final drive by 1.5.
Low Gearing Cars
Horizon 5 uses a lower stock final drive threshold for low gearing cars which is now 2.75 instead of 3.25 as in Horizon 4 (and Forza 7).
Off-road and rally cars use a higher stock final drive threshold for low gearing: 3.75 for off-road cars and 3.25 for rally cars.
