I don’t think the two issues [DLC / game issues] should be viewed in the same basket or the one a “trade off” for the other. DLC are the born child of what is allowed by manufacturers, costs, legal restrictions, licences etc. whereas game issues such as track limits are related to T10/MS strategic views and objectives. In other words, if T10 has not released any DLC, it still does not mean that they would have implemented more strict track limits. There are different grounds for the status of each.
Be it as it may, I certainly agree with your call for improved track limits, but if we get it will depend largely on T10’s view on the viability of changing them. If I look at Dan G earlier remarks on his vision for Forza, I doubt if track limits per se will be a priority soon.
Lol… The cars in Forza are not ‘rebuilt from the ground up’ and never have been. The paint glitches and EXACT body kit parts and issues have been the same for a few staple cars since FM2. Someone else explained it better, its like taking a puzzle and adding more pieces to it.
And the physics engine is not some ground breaking experience…Jeep Wagoneers and other assorted garbage on the LB prove that point. The sound in FM6, is perhaps the worst of the series.
The Forza kool aid used to be good, but is now a bit watered down for my tastes.
Do any of the other racing games regularly produce new cars that just appear in your lineup? Maybe I picked the wrong platform and need to switch to get on that free new car gravy train…
Turn 10 is pretty much known to not fix certain things post release, most of the times not even acknowledging them. If they do fix things its 2 years later when the next iteration comes out. I think they are plenty capable fixing things when they find it a priority, like when theres a bug in dlc its fixed immediately, doesnt matter what it is whether a pi bug or a cars sound being wrong, its done right away. Yet as others have said there are many other things that have either never been fixed and apparently never will like paint and tune glitches, the same ones have been around for 6 years.
Im sure a lot of work goes into the game, they are constantly reiterating that things have been “built from the ground up”, but theres many things that havent been. Whether that be tracks, cars, tuning, upgrades, painting and parts of certain menus especially in forza 5 that were obviously ported over from forza 4. Id say they were able to reuse many assets from forza 4 and forza 5 as they should in certain instances, its cost effective, but they’re not reinventing the wheel here.
Everything is a calculated decision in this game, they know to not include tokens at launch so they do it a few months after, they know what cars will be in the car pass, then they know to put more desirable ones that release after the car pass ends, they know that they havent had luck in the past with selling a track dlc so now theyre including them with “expansion packs”, they also know not to say whats in any kind of dlc because if people knew what was in them theyd lose out on all those uninformed impulse buys that im sure makes up the bulk of dlc sales.
As far as being experts, forza was made as a business strategy to combat gran turismo, they then took peoples suggestions ie all us non experts on how they could improve it culminating in forza 4, arguably the best forza in many peoples eyes. All of the sudden things have changed and so has their attitude towards their fans .
They have a new vision for forza and that includes laser scanning cars, so you can look at them in forzavista but not be able to look around the cockpit in a race, they dont want to put in generic nascar or dtm cars but theyll put in a hot wheels car. They only want to include laser scanned tracks, but refuse to set proper boundries and also refuse to add back some past fictional tracks that dont need to be laser scanned. They are also trying to get into esports with certain leagues, but theres no proper racing rules or qualifying. You could go on and on with these things, but there’s only one part of their new vision that i think is the real problem, and thats their smug, know it all attitude, like theyre too big to fail and they know better than everyone else. Studios twice their size, with game sales that put forzas to shame still listen to and respond to feedback, but no, not turn 10 they dont have to.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I respect it. Although I disagree with the “smug” comment completely. These days, more than ever, businesses really do develop mission strategies based on a lot more than forum input. Clearly, Turn 10 have chosen a direction that doesn’t favor the serious, hard core, sim type racers. But, they were very clear that they were going in that direction. I wouldn’t call that smug, just a business decision based on a vision they have and many of us may not understand.
Don’t get me wrong. I prefer a more sim type game. I prefer the features that we had in FM4. I spent a lot of time in the Auction House and Storefront, and maxed out in credits several times. I liked the leaderboards and clubs. I would prefer to have all that AND some of the features from FM2. I would prefer to have all the tracks that ever been in a Forza Motorsport game. I would prefer a much larger garage, better track boundaries, better multiplayer with penalties and suspensions. I would prefer for Tag and other crashing games to be put into Horizon and taken out of Motorsport. I would prefer to see drag racing and drifting. I could go in and on with what I would prefer.
But, I am also a realist. I know that Turn 10 is more in touch with what the consumer wants. I know that they will do what is necessary to keep the money flowing, and that, eventually, that might make Forza Motorsport a title I am no longer interested in. So I can overlook a lot if the trivial issues, like a few (very few) paint and tuning bugs, a few issues with boundaries, etc. m, and enjoy the game for what it does offer. If at some time Turn 10 evolves past what I enjoy, I will find something else. But, so far, nothing I have found comes close.
I can understand the OP’s thoughts. Does the game have issues? Yes, but they are not game ruining issues? No, they tend to be more like annoyances. Do I want them fixed? Yes. Should they be fixed? Yes. Will they be fixed? That is the $64,000 question.
I can understand Turn 10’s position too. They have a plan and they’re sticking to it. Do they realize there are issues in the game? Yes. Will they fix them? If it is a big issue they will fix it. If it isn’t, I’m not sure. I think they would weigh the cost of fixing it against their other projects. The people that would fix it may have moved on to other projects like Horizon 3. Those people may fix the issue in the new product but may not put it in the old product. There could be several reasons for this. The most obvious would be the code doesn’t fit in the older product without other major rewrites.
However, there are some things I find odd. Why don’t typographical errors get fixed? Why are the badges stilled messed up? These are not major issues but at the same time I don’t find them difficult issues. The typos should be easy. The badges would seem to be a simple issue of checking the game save. However, I could be wrong. I don’t know have they have the badges coded.
@ Old Hippie…
Sorry, the ‘edit’ was supposed to be a new post…
A couple of points regarding the “steady, competitive price”
1…To own in it’s entirety, Forza 6 is the most expensive racing game ever produced on Xbox - which doesn’t strike me as being particularly competitive at all.
2…Take a look at the price of DLC for Project Cars and ask me why SMS - who probably worked equally as hard on an equally as tight budget - release their extras at nowhere near the price that we’re currently witnessing in F6…
And don’t you find it mighty coincidental that as the unit sales of Forza steadily decline the DLC magically increases to offset this decline?
Nobody has any qualms whatsoever about having to pay for expansions - the big issue is why should it be priced in such a way that it immediately removes the appeal for the casual gamer who might want to give it a try but aren’t too sure it they will like it or not. “Pricing itself out of the market” really does spring to mind.
1… IF they release 6 extra regular packs after the car pass for $7 each that makes $42 add on, then take the $40 for both the Porsche and Nascar expansions, That’s $82 then add that to the $100 for ult edition you get $182. FM4 cost at or just over $200 so they still have room for 1 more $20 expansion before they are even with FM4. I really don’t see how people are missing this, I’ve paid around $200 for both 4 and 5(5 was slightly cheaper because no Porsche pack)
$1 a car is really not a bad number IMO(unless it’s $20 for 3 cars like the nascar seems to be, still buying it though)
2… Pcars is having to do everything they can to try and gain back all the people that were ripped off by buying an unplayable game and straight quit. I’ve read it was the most refunded digital game ever on xbox one, that’s why they are throwing cars out for less.
So in the end keep in mind the only way for this to be the “most expensive racing game ever produced on xbox” they would have to put out 2 more expansions for $20 a pop
Oh and by the way, I have an HND in mechanical engineering but don’t feel the need to appear special by telling the world about it. So less of the “trolling” nonsense please.
You brought it up in an attempt to insult me. It’s not something I would normally share. I don’t have to impress you or anyone else. YOU trolled, I replied. Again, you win.
Of course FM6 with all of its DLC and expansion(s) is the most expensive ever. The cost of nearly everything has gone up, and FM6 has offered quite a lot. But the price of the base game (a complete product) has remained consistent with the market. Which allows Turn 10 to market the game to a larger market, and hopefully make new DLC sales to them as well.
My point is that they are doing business as a business should. They are utilizing the tools available to them, to generate revenue, because it is a business, not a hobby.
It’s difficult for some people to understand that, and condemning a company for it is ridiculous.
Now, I’m done. I don’t want to argue this point, just for the sake of an argument.
Boris keep in mind your degree is great but there are 2 kinds of smart, book smart and common sense smart. The two very rarely go together with the same person and as of yet I’m undecided which you are.
Oh and about not telling the world about it, well, I think you just did!
Boris, you call Hippie an “expert” at an attempt to insult. He tells you he does have marketing degree and you tell him not to show off…then you tell him you have a degree in engineering.
If TURN 10 saw a plunge in sales in regards to DLC they would adjust pricing, in the mean time they are doing just fine.
I still dont understand the casual vs hardcore thing when pertaining to forza. Its never been a sim, they never said it was, it was always a simcade. If someone wanted a “hardcore” experience, forza never would have checked any of those boxes, hardcore players would already be playing something else. I also dont think wanting proper track limits, steering wheel ffb that feels like it wasnt developed on forza 1, qualifying, more realistic fuel consumption and tire wear is really that “hardcore” to want in a racing game from a developer who has been making racing games for 10 years.
As far as “casual” players, forza has never been a “casual” racing game either. Sure theres many assists that will allow a larger group to race, but those assists dont help you win a race. Ive seen many people say that forza is too hard for whatever reasons, im assuming they mean when they get in a multiplayer race and theyre coming in last because the rewind button doesnt work. This is why the lobbies are a mess.
Turn 10 with their never ending quest to gain these “casual” racers, has promoted bad habits to be formed by using said assists and in the long run bad racing etiquette by not having any real rules of racing. They’re not looking for “casual” racers that will learn race craft by playing the game, they want “casual” buyers, people that will buy the game, buy the car packs and buy the god forsaken tokens that they added, you know for people that dont have time to play.
Theres no reason that certain things havent been fixed or added by now, none. Im not one to call a developer “lazy” because i dont make video games, but race around the top gear track and tell me the person who was supposed to set the track limits wasnt sleeping or didnt show up to work that day. You can literally cut almost every corner of the track. Its unacceptable, if your going to have limits, then every track should have limits, if you dont care then none of them should and turn 10 should just laser scan a big parking lot for everyone to drive around in.
I think by trying to be sim like and arcade at the same time the series has just become a jumbled mess with no real focus. Theres no options for people who do want a more realistic racing experience, and the more “casual” players dont actually learn anything about racing. This is why the forza franchise is losing sales and gaining more dlc. Theyre losing more experienced people who have been playing for 10 years, and gaining some new players who most likely wont buy the next one because they’re not good enough and never will be unless an experienced player teaches them how to play.
Anyone who has been playing these games for a while now knows that its not just a lot of top racers that have left, its also the painters, the tuners, the drifters and the drag racers. This happens to every game, people move on, but the problem for turn 10 is that these new games arent as good as the past ones.
Turn 10 gave the community certain tools to make forza successful and it was, but in a few short years they took those tools away and this is what happens. Older players leave because these things are gone, and new players dont stay because theres not much more to do besides race.
They’ll never know how good storefronts and the auction house were, they’ll never be able to join a clan and share paints, tunes and cars, and they’ll never know how you could join a strangers lobby and maybe learn a thing or two and gain some great friends in the process. All they’ll know is theyre not going to win unless they crash through everyone and cut corners, never learn to tune or paint because you can get someone elses for free, and never really learn anything from a stranger because no one talks in the lobbies. It has literally become the least social multiplayer game i have ever played besides the occasional baby crying or dog barking in the background. It is a shell of what this franchise once was, and no amount of expansions and dlc cars is going to change that.
I don’t know about a “shell” but I have only owned the game a week and have noticed this part about the communal aspect being a bit sterile. None of my friends play forza so in FM3 and 4 I usually tag onto a private lobby to make up numbers and you can have a good craic. I thought I just hadn’t found that option yet as I’m just getting to grips with the basics still. However I’ve stopped using my headset in league and multiplayer races as there is literally no conversation at all. Forza is an awesome community of people with a shared interest having constructive fun together. That is what sets it apart from all the FPS games.
If you’re talking about searchable user created lobbies, then no they are no longer in the game. I said shell because what i considered the core of forza was the community features, they were what set forza apart from other racing games and they arent there anymore, so to me it does have the look and feel of a forza but the soul is gone.
I’ve been wrestling with the idea of FM not giving me the fizz as it once did before, but I’ve never really been able to put it into words/writing. It’s always been a case of “well, I know they’ve lost the AH, but I never really cared for it, so I’m not bothered” and “well, I know the SF is pretty much a goner at this point, but I can live without it” and “I see there’s lots of complaints about lobbies/MP crashes, but I don’t multiplay, so no biggie.”
After a while, though, I guess you start to realize that while these elements may not bother you on the surface, their departure/issues do leave a game that just doesn’t feel as robust – in an intagible way, I guess – as it once did.
What you’ve written in the quoted section above pretty much sums it up, and adds a little tangibility to my consternation. And it scares the heck out of me.
And it’s not just a feeling, either, as evidenced by the fact that 6 is the fourth-lowest-selling Forza game – Motorsport or Horizon, XB, XB2, XB360 or One – ever. The games behind it, meanwhile, are low for good reason; FM marked the start of a brand new franchise, and while both the X360 and One versions of F:H2 sit below 6 on the sales chart as individual titles, when combined, they’ve sold more than 6, and near-as-makes-no-difference as much as FM5, too. FM6 meanwhile, has been on the market long enough to cause concern, especially considering that FH3 is probably a done deal, something I’m sure we’ll learn all about next month at E3, and will likely signal the end – or soon-to-be end – of any further support for FM6.
Now, don’t get me wrong: there remains lots to like about FM6 – pretty sure it’s my most played game, but I really only play 2, so that’s not saying much – but this hope to somehow go where no racer has gone before and appeal to both racers and casuals alike is seeming more and more like a non-starter to me.
I liken it to an NHL team (probably most pro sports teams, but I’m not as aware of the intricacies/minutiae of other leagues as I am of the NHL) trying to perform what’s known as an “on-the-fly rebuild”.
What that means, essentially, is that there are teams out there willing to sell the farm for a higher draft pick or 2 (a full-blown rebuild; see the Toronto Maple Leafs as of late), and others that try to make little tweaks here and there (an on-the-fly rebuild), but end up either middling (see the Montreal Canadiens) or bottom-of-the-barrel (see the Vancouver Canucks). Occasionally, teams are successful with this (see the San Jose Sharks today, and the Detroit Red Wings of yesteryear), but that takes a huge amount of luck at the draft and is rarely a recipe for success. That’s Forza Motorsport. They’re trying to hold on to their vets (that is to say long time players like myself, Old Hippie, Swedish Thunder, Verrukt Shackal and others on these boards), but at the same time, trying to infuse some youth by focusing on features like tag and virus (I think both of these are still in; correct me if I’m wrong), shinier cars and other made-for-TV stuff – Horizon stuff – like that.
As evidenced by their sales figures, that doesn’t really seem to be working. And that’s what scares me.
As much as we hate to admit it as older gamers/racers/enthusiasts, we make up a small amount of the gaming populace and the younger gamers – the cash cows – don’t have the attention span, on average, to learn how to properly tune a car, clip an apex, or paint a Gulf logo. If that’s the group that a franchise needs to keep itself solvent, then on that group shall the focus be. And that means FM, as we know it, will never be the same, and FH will continue to grow and grow. And, like either rebuilding on the fly or rebuilding full-scale, there isn’t enough room for two strategies, so Horizon, likely, is where it’s going to begin, and to end, with the Forza franchise.
Well the thing is from a business perspective the forza franchise which includes motorsport, horizon and now apex is successful. Every year a new forza releases, motorsport then horizon. Forza 5 sold about 2 million, horizon 2 about 1.5, and now 6 which will also be around 2 million. Each iteration is not a sales juggernaut, but taken as a whole in 3 years they’ve sold 5.5 million games. If you compare lets say gran turismo 5 which took 5-6 years to come out and sold about 10 million, if forza averaged that 5.5 for another 3 years it’d be at 11 million, when you add in car passes and expansions covering 6 years worth of games your talking the equivalent of 14-15 million copies sold. Since all 3 of these games share assets, they will have lower budgets individually which looks good for each games returns. Its like GM in the 80s and 90s, you had chevy, pontiac, buick and oldsmobile sharing platforms with little differences between them, yes it kept costs down and manufacturing was much quicker, but as everyone now knows it was the downfall of the company. It caused a stagnancy in development because all those brands catered to a different group of people, but only so much could be altered for each brand. They could only add little gimmicks here or there, basically never taking chances. It allowed other companies to swoop in and steal customers from them, and when they realized they needed to differentiate the brands more and start to innovate it was too late. They didnt have the production capabilities nor the new talent needed for innovation. They were used to doing the same thing over and over again, using the same techniques, most likely getting rid of more employees to further cut costs to keep those returns looking good despite each individual car losing sales. Basically a facade of success, only focusing on that bottom line in the short term. I kind of think forza is going down that same route, they share too many core assets to the point where not much can be altered from the basic formula without changing all 3 games. So every year they’ll add a little something, but it wont ever be revolutionary because not one of the titles has a budget large enough to do it. In the short term this works, but long term someones going to swoop in and have a big enough budget to either make a better motorsport or better horizon game and they will not have the resources(not just money) to combat them. I dont mind a new forza every year, i like motorsport and i like horizon, but they have to find a way to stop taking out features that people like or at least try to replace them with something of equal value.