A better way to determine grid position that what we have now (always at the back against the AI, random in MP) is requested by many. I was thinking about what would be a good system and would be curious to hear what others think?
I make the assumption that running separate time trial laps before every race is out of question - I don’t think this would have mass appeal so I don’t find it likely that it will be added. So the system should be based on previous performance. If a racer does not have an applicable past lap time, they will be NQ and placed at the rear. Otherwise the grid will be filled based on prior applicable lap times.
I think the point of determining a racer’s grid position is to minimize competitors holding up each other - you should be positioned based on how fast you are expected to be during any given race. So track, car, car setup, allowed assists and whether the lap was a hot-lap or there were other cars on the track are all factors that potentially could be taken into account. On the other hand requiring an exact match of all these factors will result in being NQ too frequently. This is bad because NQ-d fast racers will create the same problems that a fast racer placed to the back randomly creates today. Also, this is a game, people should be able to swap cars/tunes frequently without worrying about being NQ-d.
So what are the factors you would take into account when determining whether a previous lap time is applicable or not for the current race? Here is what I would propose:
Track needs to be the same.
Car’s PI needs less than or equal to what is allowed for the race. In practice this will mean car was the same class than the allowed class for the race.
Assists the lap was run with should be allowed for the race.
Does not matter if it was a hot-lap or a lap during a race.
The last one is the one I thought about the most. Since hot-laps are faster than laps during races, this essentially forces people to do hot-laps. I don’t like that because I would prefer a system that does not force any specific play style on people. However if the system only allowed laps that were run during races, people will start to game it: e.g. set up races with your friends where they let you pass unobstructed, and essentially run hot-laps during a race.
Anyways, I would be interested to find out what others think?
I long for full race weekends, but that is not going to happen i know. I woukd suggest that grid position would best done by level, as in fm3. Every 10 levels is a grid position up.
I think that using previous hotlaps, while a good idea, would be too inconsistent for casual players, which they wont like and thus would not fit the t10 vision as a game for all.
Actually I quite like it random on MP.
Actually if there would be qualifications based on hotlap performance, I would always be starting from back of the pack, just because I basically never hotlap at all. Then again as I am quite fast driver (at least in FM4 as I do not have FM5 yet) I would have to battle trough the field always. Then again, I actually enjoy that.
How ever. if there would be qualification system of some sort, and the skill level of the lobby would be bit larger, I would see the outcome being pretty simple, first 2-5 guys brake away from rest of the pack very early on. and last 5-10 guys never even see the finishline, as the race end timer will DNF them. And I’d call that a problem.
If there would be some sort of qualification system. It should put the fast guys on back of the pack. So that the slower drivers would have fighting chance to even see the finishline.
The way people drive, and the difference in skills you see in the lobby you still get what you described, where 5-10 DNF. Starting in the back will only set them back as much as the first turn. Avoid the huge pile-up (which can be easy at times) to go from 13th to 7th without touching a single car, and the rest is just put on the speed. Only when there are drivers that start in the 1-6 position with the intent to wreck anyone ahead of them can it become hard for faster more skilled drivers to simply get through the field quickly to pull away.
I kind of like the idea of going based off a person’s hotlap times for that track in that class. While it’s not perfect (people setting times in X-bow, and never racing in them) it’s less time consuming than doing a proper qualifying run (2 laps) for a 3 lap race. Maybe it wouldn’t be so bad if you get credits and XP for your qualifying position.
Anyways, to fix the DNF situation can be pretty easy. Have the 30-45 second timer to finish, but really it’s like you have 30-45 seconds of racing until the race ends similarly to a timed race. It gets counted as a finish, so you can still get your medal. The extra time is to be able to sprint for position if you can. Then it doesn’t matter how far ahead 1st is from the rest of the field. Even if the guy in 2nd does cross the finish line they still get their medal for position, and the credits to go with it. DNFs should be for people that quit, or if/when Turn 10 enacts a penalty system for people who excessively wreck others and cut corners.
Getting away from the pile up or wreckers isnt really determined by grid positions, even if you would put them at the back, they would be able to hit many (if not all on some tracks) regardless whether the fast ones are the first ones, if they want to wreck you (and if not you at least some behind you) in the first turn (or first couple of turns, or even the following laps) they will do so no matter what - including the starting grid
And if we are already discussing wrecking in relation to the starting grid, I actually think that it is better to start behind and wait patiently for the right moment to pass - after they have wrecked eachother
I am not sure whether I would want to be willing to start more up front than it is now, if I want to hotlap I do rivals, when I race I want to race opponents and beat them by passing them, whether career mode or mp - leaderboard, hotlap times doesnt mean that someone can actually race that good (of course there are many people who are good at both), and if they can why not add an extra challenge, if they are so good why to consider it as if someone is holding them up, everytime I think aah damn they are holding me up, on second thought I think aah damn I should get better and beat them more easily, whats the fun for fast people being in front of the starting grid? So that they can hotlap in mp?
I don’t see anything wrong with providing an option to perform a qualifying lap. If someone is willing to go the extra mile to do that, then go ahead and give them a ranked starting position. Otherwise, if the player doesn’t want to bother with a qualifying lap, then start them near the back (as happens currently), or even at the very back, as would happen in a real racing series. Of course, none of this will possibly happen until Forza 6 at the earliest, so there’s not much point in spending a lot of time thinking about it.
A random start grid in my mind makes the most sense. If people that intentionally wreck people knew that the people up front were the faster drivers they would know who to target by running them through the first corner. Personally I like starting at the back as I normally don’t have the best launch, this way I can weave my way through the carnage rather than be in the middle of it and be 10 seconds back after the first corner.
I think the random start works fine for MP, but it’s a good idea about the hotlap times. It does give you incentive to hotlap. For career races, I don’t know. The fact we start in last almost every single race is kind of absurd. I wouldn’t mind starting from 10th or somewhere mid pack every race though.
Although I fully understand the logic in the OPs post I don’t like it and will try to explain why.
The FM4 forums had threads along the lines of AI is too easy give us something harder.
Some do not like drivatars due to behaviour but the reality is lap time wise the hardest drivatars do not challenge the better drivers.
So would the better drivers really want to hot lap out in front from lap 1? I would not enjoy that. I actually would not start out in front because on unbeatable I am up against Dantastic and the like who are quicker than me.
It seems to be hard to get clean and challenging together.
The OP’s suggestion has merit but probably needs a rethink of the pace of the drivatars to go with it.
fast guys will turn the same laps in a lobby as they do in hotlap. Ive ran many very fast times in a lobby easily.
there is no solution, the player pool is no where big enough.
back when trueskill was around we used to do reverse trueskill for the grid, the result was still the same. fast guys would win. It just took half a lap longer to end up back in front.
ordering by PI wasnt a solution either as certain builds sit higher in the PI then others even though both are at the boundary point.
Looks like this is a harder problem than I thought, my goal was to make the races more similar to real races.
It seems like a lot of people does not even want this and like the fact that the game gives them a chance to start in front of faster players. Also good point about wreckers - pole position is a double edged sword.
I often think about this. I have just read everyone’s point of view and I find logic in all of them. I don’t want to start P1 and just lap, but racing 1st turn carnage gets annoying. Maybe leaderboard time is good because you never know exactly which Drivatars you are going against and you start in a random position based on prior race times.
After starting in position 8, 13 or 14 in Career Mode for over 300 Races, which is the only part I do, I would ask for my starting position to be determined by either the GOLD Medals I have to date or by aggregating all my place finishes up to that race. I would have thought this would be a simple part of the programmed race or could be added in a very small update at anytime.