Ok, I’m frustrated now. I race with TCS on, ABS and manual/No clutch. I’ve read discussions in the past about getting rid of assists but since we’re returning to Unicorns and Bounty Hunter comps, I thought it was a good time to discuss this again. Surely there are many frustrated, as I am, by not being able to beat the bounty hunter target or qualify in the top 5%. And rather than complaining about not being able to win this or that, lets talk about improving. I’m a racer who, as I mentioned, uses all assists. I can be very fast on some tracks, usually momentum tracks, Alps, Prague, Road Atlanta and the apparently deceased forever Maple Valley. On the Alps tracks I can land in the top 100 and Prague I don’t recall but probably top 200 or so. On more technical tracks I can still be top 1%. But the CBH races are never on the fantasy tracks so I can’t seem be quite fast enough to beat them. Hence, the topic…
Can some of you great drivers talk about the transition to using no assists? How long it took to go faster once you took the plunge? How much your times improved? Any recommendations for mastering the deftness necessary to keep from locking up or spinning the tires? Given my times using all assists I’m hoping I can become a top racer.
I don’t know this from doing it myself but I imagine that increasing controller vibration might be a way to get more feedback about locked or spinning tires and push you to use smoother inputs.
I only use TCS on occasion if the car isn’t slowed down by it. Other than that, the only assist I started with was ABS, and turning it off took me about a week on Forza 3 to get used to. Ever since I’ve only run TCS, and that’s arguably the only assist that doesn’t slow you down. However, in certain cars, such as the Gallardo ST for the Leagues and Rivals, benefit from turning TCS off due to horrible TCS interference on the AWD drivetrain.
The only assists I run with is ABS and a clutchless manual, mainly out of convenience for a controller setup.
Never use TCS or STM. STM is nearly useless; unless the car is in a full-sideways drift, it won’t kick in. And while TCS is good or great for extremely high-horsepower, low-weight vehicles (the Lotus E23 comes to mind), the downside is that power loss from the TCS compensating for wheelspin causes you to lose speed going through turns and then, when the power is reapplied, it’s usually in such a fashion that understeer is too great a factor.
I think the best way to transition to no assists is to remove them one at a time and race until you are more used to it and can read what the car is telling you.
Start by turning off ABS. Use a car you are familiar with. Drive on a track that has decent braking zones and practice braking. Hit it hard and see what happens. Come to the corner again but hit it a bit more lightly and keep doing that until you get a sense of understanding of what the car is doing as you brake. Try with other cars and soon you will be able to drive without ABS.
After that remove traction control. Accelerate off the line hard and out of corners hard and feel how poorly the car responds. Then try it with less force and keep doing that until you get a feel for it.
Remove STM and do the same.
Then learn to drive manual (you could do this one first). Use the telemetry and a long straight to see where the cars peak power is. Repeatedly go down the straight attempting to gear up at different rev bands to see where the best point to gear up is. Then learn to hear the noise of the engine to tell you when to gear up. I sometimes do it based on the controller vibrating. Gearing down for me was practice when approaching a corner.
As for clutch. Swap it to the A button and watch the youtube videos about how to use it. They do help. Then practice.
Believe it or not the CBH for the Aston forced me to go over all this again and made me better for it. Get the basics down. Watch the videos by Raceboy77 and Super GT. They give good advice. Teach about how to keep the car balanced when shifting, braking and turning.
Best thing is then practice. If you do 20 laps straight and something ain’t clicking. Evaluate how you are doing it. Be critical of yourself and think maybe if I try this instead it will work better. You might find you are braking too late into a corner unsettling the car too much. So earlier braking then helps. Braking and using throttle can help at the same time can help.
It sounds to me that you know about car control etc and no how to be critical and look for how to improve. You are just wanting to know how to best practice without assists? Or I have completely misread the OP… It is end of play on Monday and I am tired so please forgive me.
Depends what you are after, I have all aids off save for ABS and clutch, sim steering using the controller. Most modern race cars (e.g. the Gallardo LP 570-4 Super Trofeo) use ABS and the clutch is only used to get out of first gear. Almost all road cars since the mid to late 80s use ABS so I’m trying to keep it realistic since I find it more fun that way. TC is not needed for All wheel drive cars and not needed for the Porsche, mostly due to the weight on the rear helping with traction. Most road cars have TC but since I can turn it off in a real car I do the same in the game. TC in the game is much too aggressive so try not to use it if possible. I’m faster in the Gallardo with TC off. You can’t however turn off ABS in a real car so I leave that on. I’m quick enough on tracks I know well but the way ABS is implemented in the game hurts more than it helps which is opposite to how it should be. Lastly, since many tracks can be cut and the top people do it, even T10 employees on this forum admit to corner cutting Monza, it becomes more an issue of cutting to gain time that having e.g. TC disabled.
If you want to be a top racer in the sim world I’d recommend getting good equipment and sub’ing to iRacing. Although I have high hopes for Forza coming to the PC, not so much Apex but FM7, whenever that is available. The tire model in FM6 is very limited so you won’t be building anything but specific racing skills for Forza.
Actually you can do a lot of things but the point is there is no available option built in by the manufacture to do it. You can remove the sensor or maybe a fuse but I’m not talking about hacking the ABS out of a car. And if you have a nice car to begin with what advantage would doing that provide? I’ve never met someone at a PCA event telling me they disabled their ABS, nor would I ever expect to. If it was an advantage why would modern race cars use ABS? Truth be told Porsche’s PSM system is so good you don’t need to turn it off at the track, the only time I would is when I wanted to drift the tail around. The ABS system I wouldn’t even think of messing with. The issue is you can go quicker in FM6 with TC off because it is too aggressive, there are no levels to it, no Sport mode or Race mode. Same for the ABS, it isn’t well done and since the tire model is basic you can lock up and not have to deal with flat spotting. Limitations aside FM6 is still a lot of fun.
It has been proven that ABS increases a cars stopping distance when in controlled situations under hard braking. ABS was originally designed as a very useful safety feature for road cars in uncontrollable situations like hydro planing or slamming on the brakes to avoid an accident. Now while race car drivers are not perfect a majority of the braking they do is under controlled circumstances where they can push the brakes to their limit without locking them up. In these cases ABS is a hindrance because it kicks in before the brakes would normally lock and increases the stopping distances against controlled hard braking without it. ABS also adds weight to race cars and can more easily warp brake rotors because of the force and speed it applies to them through the calipers. So unless race cars are Formula One fast and drivers have enough time to think in between corners ABS is like running a foot race with a full length arm cast in a sling. You can still do it but you will be heavier, off balance, and wear out more quickly.
Now in a road car in everyday conditions it is absolutely unthinkable to deactivate the system as it allows you to be able to steer under full braking. So if you have a car equipped with it which every car made after the early 90s does, you should just leave it alone if you don’t race with it.
This post is so full of stupid it hurts. It warps rotors? Never heard of that, can only imagine that the ABS active response you feel in the brake pedal makes someone think the rotors are warped. First gen ABS from the 80s might not be ideal but ABS today is excellent. I’m a PCA guy and I’ve heard of some owners installing Bosch Cup ABS, basically a race ABS option in their 991s. The issue is when using slicks in place of the street tires, the stock ABS isn’t tuned ideally for non street tires. I’ve owned and tracked cars with and without ABS and never had warped rotors or off balance issues, pure nonsense. For non pros it is very easy to lock up and thus risk flat spotting very expensive tires, easy to do in slow turns. If you drive a minivan or some form of crap box your ABS is likely not tuned for track use but then again neither is your car. ABS in a quality sports car isn’t any of the things you mention. And the heavier comment is just as off, I have ABS on my motorcycle and it weighs in at just three pounds. The system in your car weighs a bit more but by no means makes a significant difference in lap speeds.
A bad ABS sensor can lead to warped rotors and abs can make a significant difference in lap speed. It doesnt mean necessarily losing seconds, significant to me is a couple hundredths.
My only source is working on brakes as my job for 14 years. The most common cause of warped rotors is a faulty ABS sensor. Seeing as heat and friction is actually what causes rotors to warp in the first place, I’m surprised common sense hasn’t led you guys to this conclusion.
Get rid of TCS, only really useful on high powered vehicles, no time at all required.
Remap the clutch button by swapping with the handbrake. Then mash clutch and gear at the same time, will only take a short time to get used to, maybe an hour or so.
Finally remove ABS, initially you will brake too hard and lock up, you will need to be a lot more gentle but your corners will become much quicker. Will take a few hours to become natural.
It seems very car dependent. I always have abs on because I don’t think it hurts. I’ll usually check the leaderboard and see what top cars are using and it does vary car to car. You’ll usually always have the guys who use no assists and then I’ll try it too. In general, I think if a car can be driven comfortably without tcs then don’t use it because then I feel like it bogs it down… Awd cars I don’t see anyone using tcs.
To the op, use whatever makes you feel comfortable. Many will disagree with this, but it is very possible to drive top10 times with ABS/TCS/STM all turned on. The only assist that will make you slower, is running with auto or manual gears. Manual with clutch shows a very recordable and noticeable difference. Don’t let others peer pressure you into leaving your comfort zone.
This isn’t altogether true. It’s possible for a top driver to run a T10 with assists but it definitely disadvantages you. TCS can and will slow you down needlessly, ABS compromises braking distance and feel and STM is just a waste of time. It is 10000% beneficial to learn to run without assists, particularly in classes A and below.
You have just proven exactly what I was saying by attempting to disagree with me.
As it stands in Forza (and most other racing games), the assists tend not to get in the way if the person in question can actually drive properly in the first place. This does usually mean that person doesn’t truly need the assists turned on, but at the same time it is not for any of us to tell them otherwise; it is for them to decide on their own. If someone is using ABS/TCS/STM, and the ABS/TCS/STM lights are flashing like crazy, then they are either a poor driver to begin with, or their car is exceptionally badly tuned; or a combination of both.
I run without ABS/TCS/STM myself, and prefer it that way. But not everyone will like that, and not everyone needs to turn them off. The aim of the game ultimately, is to have good clean fun; so people should use whatever assists make them feel the most comfortable.
And as I pointed out in my last post, manual with clutch is the only thing that will give a quantifiable benefit around the track; especially in the lower classes.
agree 110% … There’s no one true exact system to use, as each driver will react differently to different things happening around them in a car, be it virtual or real life.
Haven driven since I was just 13, that’s 50yrs of driving experience, I’ve developed my own style. I can understand how much pressure to supply to both broke and accelerator.
And, to its credit, the Elite a Controller gives one an edge over conventional controllers insofar as that the stronger motors, more sensitive triggers, and the fact you can alter those settings. These unique settings can give you a much better ‘feel’ for the car.
It can tell when the tyres are about to ‘let go’ or how much the front end is sliding and just the amount of accel to ad to stop or slow it down…
The Elit Controller certainly helps the user in many regards, but the biggest I’ve found is the overal ‘feeling’ you can get. I can even feel when the engine/motor is stretching it just that little bit too far, as the controller gives me much more kinetic feedback.
Plus running with some assists on is helping on some tracks, while they are detrimental on others.
However, I’d love a proper clutch that could be operated with a trigger. But hey, we’d have to invent a new controller, and grow an additional index finger… lol. That way we could ‘feed the clutch’ like you do in real life.
The G920 provides that experience of the clutch you mentioned for not much more than the Elite controller plus you get a proper wheel and accelerator and brake pedal too.