End of a love/hate "relationship"

Forza Motorsport Legacy Motorsport
1

When i started to get interested in sim racing i did my research on internet after reading many reviews on looking at gameplay on youtube i decided to get my hands on an xbox and forza 6. It seemed like the right choice with the informations i had at that time. After close to 1300$ of investment (tx wheel, wheel stand pro…) i was up and running. Along the way i also tried f1 2015 and project cars. The way i see it, pc has great ffb but a boring game and f1 is too easy. With the right set up and no major mistakes, you’ll win every race.

Most of my playing time was therefore spent on forza. I was really into it. I bought the car pass, vip, porsche expansion pack, nascar expansion pack. I didn’t buy the last ones though. The initial excitement was starting to fade away. I mean … i really like the game. The visual, the variety of things you can do, the tuning, rivals, buying differents cars, finding cool liveries, etc… career is a bit cumbersome but i can do with it. I like to race and as long as i can play a game where i can go fast and be competitive, i’ll have fun. But restarting a race (northschleife for example …) something like 17 times just to be able to go through the first turn without a major catastrophe is not normal. And that’s just one of the problems that finally got to me. Online racing is somewhat of a joke. It seems that there are no rules. Well, the rules are there but … anyway, you all know what the deal is.

My other main concern is regarding the steering wheel vs controller playing. That a car racing game is meant to be played primarily on a controller is beyong me. I don’t get it and never will. And it’s not the fact that i’m not competitive enough. Like many have said before, i know i’m not the fastest and that’s fine. But i can be competitive enougn to have fun, unfortunately, only on oval circuits. I have some good scores on rivals… homestead a-class #11 americas/#10 hardcore … homestead rain #5 americas s-class … homestead p-class #9 americas/#8 hardcore … indy p-class #33 americas … daytona day x-class #53 americas. I could list them all but you see the point. But as soon as we talk road racing, it’s a whole different ball game. Maybe i just need many many more hours of practice but i just don’t have that kind of time on my hand. And it seem a bit futile anyway. The game is made for controller and that’s it.

There is also the recurrent connection problems, the strange choice of tracks in hopper, the even stranger pit stops with the big bar blocking the view … and so on … and the fact that, from what i’ve read so far, turn 10 has a philosophy that “if you don’t like it, play something else”. Well it’s too bad 'cos i really liked the game but the downsides have gotten to me to the point that i’m just quiting and i’m gonna be reselling all my “stuff”.

Nobody will loose sleep over this :wink::blush: … and that’s just fine ! But i still think that it’s a bit of a shame … i mean … i like racing a lot … and i really wanted to play this game.

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Have you considered any other games? I haven’t gotten around to it yet but I hear Dirt Rally is great on a wheel and Assetto Corsa will be out soon. I wouldn’t give up all hope just yet.

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I didn’t try dirt rally. Maybe i should but my main interest is road racing. As for asseto corsa, i wanted to wait for it’s release and, at the same time, i was asking myself how much money will i put into this before finding something really entertaining or giving up. Nothing is sold yet so … still have time to think about it ! :wink:

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Forza is what it is. Sounds like you need a break.

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That Forza is optimized for a controller is why I play it. If I wanted to play with a wheel and pedal setup I’d be back on the PC. The controller is much more accessible and easier to use for quick racing sessions.

You should check out iRacing if you want a more serious experience.

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Sim racing is a major investment and it sounds like you are partly there. If you don’t have a beefy Pc that’s the next investment. I’m waiting on assetto corsa, hopefully that will let me playing on console or I’ll be upgrading a PC.
I’ve realised consoles perhaps aren’t going to provide what I’m chasing.
Fingers crossed for Assetto corsa, or Forza Motorsport 7 takes a sim seriously and leaves arcade for horizon.

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To answer the various comments … yes, i probably need a break from this. A wider selection of oval tracks would have provided me with many more hours of racing but going in circle on the same 3 tracks session after session is a bit … redondant. Didn’t changed the fact that i really enjoyed the nascar pack and i’ve turned around homestead quite a few hundred laps for sure :wink:

The fact that people prefer the controller over the wheel to play this game is fine with me. I don’t enjoy it but that’s just me. I just wish i had done my research a bit better… i wouldn’t have spend that kind of money for a controller based game. From my point of view it just takes too much away from the driving experience.

So the next step will probably taking a look deeper into iracing and see what it offers versus the cost. It’s been a while since i did some shopping for a computer …

Maybe asseto corsa will offer a different experience. I certainly hope so for those who look for something less arcade like. Forza 7 … i, personnaly, wouldn’t keep my hopes too high. I’m no game wiz but by looking around and seeing what turn 10 has offered so far, it doesn’t look like they’re heading the “hardcore sim” way … regardless what some people have said :confused:

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One MAJOR thing that many ppl forget about both the Xbox and the PlayStation is, that they are designed primarily fir the everyday gamer.

Not the hardened gamers that are only primarily interested in racing games.

Every segment of the game is built and tested using the controller. Not the computer work that goes into programming etc, but the testing, working, navigational areas and gamer experience is designed with the controller.

The steering wheel options are simply a secondary thought, as the developers know that those gamers would be in the low end of the users, the minor 1% of the gamers from the large pool of purchasers.

So, if your major purchases only use the controller, and only 1% of your end user has the ability to use a steering rig, big or small, then that’s where you design the game for, right.?

That’s the biggest mistake console gamers make, believing that the developer should have made the game to suit their idea of how the game should have been designed, the steering wheel rigs.

No disrespect meant, it’s just how it is. Even every test bench, media showing and media testing is always done on the controllers, noting else. There’s the odd Occassion where a racing cockpit is used, but the majority of the media testing benches will have controllers only.

However, when it comes to public showings, or certain events, the developers of racing games designed for consoles, is often set up with several racing cockpits, as well as several controller stands. Usually because the cockpit makers have sponsored the event and want to showcase their equipment. Nothing more. If the gamer gets hooked on a unit, it could end up becoming a sale. But that for the minority. Not the majority.

Something to think about when asking that the game be designed around a steering rig. The controller is the weapon of choice for 98% of racing games on consoles.

OZ

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iRacing is fantastic, but it’s serious. As in, you’ll need to actually practice kind of serious. In any given series you’ll get a single track a week to race on. View is in car only with no line assistance, so memorizing your braking, turn-in, and track-out points is mandatory.

For me, the seriousness grew tiresome. When I get a new PC I’ll definitely go back, but console racers like Forza and GT will always beat a sim for the basic joy of goofing around with cars.

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I guess i was a bit naive … i mean …really. I kind of assumed that car racing was done with a wheel. I fully understand the manufacturer’s point of view and the fact that you want to please the majority of your consumer base. But … i’m 51. I’ve been driving for 35 years. I drove crappy cars, muscle cars, pick ups, trucks, loaders, ambulances, fire trucks … it just seemed obvious to me. Not from the right generation i guess :blush:

Anyway, i’ll most certainly take a serious look into iracing. From what i’ve seen so far it does in fact look pretty serious and there’s no doubt one must put in the time and effort needed to be competitive.

On a more casual note, just last night i was speaking with a friend who went on a trip to daytona and he tried the racing simulator there. I mean the “real one”. For a certain amount you can try it for a few laps. He was telling me that the person in charge was explaining to him the basics and the location of the panic button … the kill switch … saying that, if you feel dizzy, uncomfortable, uneasy, just push that button. My friend gave him the “who do you think i am” look, got in the thing and fired it up. He said everything got well 'till the second turn. When he lost control going almost full speed. In his own words … i started to spin so fast i almost threw up instantly … i was going for the kill switch but couldn’t see where it was even though it was right in front of me … now , that’s a racing simulator ! Must be worth the price of a small house but hey … must be fun too. Don’t have to tell you that my friend got out of that thing looking pale and humbled by the experience :blush::wink:

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I’m not quite 50, but I’m closer to it than not. I used to wonder the same thing about why anyone would want to play a racing game without a wheel. Honestly, Forza’s the game that changed my mind about that. Not that I’d trust any other series to get that just right, but this game with the Elite controller is a fantastic combination.

Another thing for me is the wife and young kid. I just don’t have the time to dedicate that a proper simulator demands right now. I can pick up the controller, which takes up no space, tune a car, run a race, deal with the crying baby, paint a car, change a diaper, and then experiment with another car. Sims are a little less flexible in their timing. When you get to the higher leagues in iRacing you have to work your schedule around when the races are, because they restrict the number of races during the week to maximize participation.

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Perfectly said mste.

And that’s the whole reason Turn 10 designed a console game rather than build a PC Racing sim.

It brings in the casual ,but dedicated racer who isn’t playing the game in his bedroom, or in a club house or college dorm.

He/she’s playing it while bring a person in real life. Multitasking to simply enjoy his racing experience.

And yes, I agree with you re the Elite Controller.

I have one and I’d never go back to a Stsndard controller, ever. It’s 10 times better than the standard controller.

It’ll be interesting to see what changes they have made to the new style controller that will be shipping with the Xbox Zone-Slim in August. If it’s been modelled around the Elite, it could prove yo be the ideal controller. Hopefully it will be tuneable like the Elite, and offer alternative custom set ups at the flip of a switch. Best device for playing FPSsers and Racing games.

If anyone doesn’t have one, look at getting one. They do not wear out like Stsndard ones do. They are more robust, heavier, stronger tumble motors, better thumbsticks. Do t use the teller ones if you think it
L give you more steering control.

In fact, it
L be less controllable with long stick than it is with standard ones. But they are metal, stronger etc.

OZ

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I’m with you mate, I’m now 63, been building, painting drive and racing cars since I was a teen.

Built them from chassis up, or just done a repainted and some wheels. Everything from a mild Morris Minor, to a Stsndard 10 fitted out with a full race Holden Six cylinder, a V8 powered HR Holden and both could take on the GTHOs of the time. Not yo mention my old pride the Series 1 72 XJ6 Jaguar with a Small block Chevy.

Been in rod clubs, ran Street machine clubs and just enjoyed cars in general. It’s fun and work… But fun more than anything else. So I get where you’re coming from

But I’ve been involved in console racing since 2003, and I’ve alway understood that the games are for everyone, not the minority. That area of car racing gaming is designed for the arena of gaming PCs. Serious racing also requires dedication, have the time to master every aspect of your cars in their virtual world.

Like mentioned above in another guys post, some games do require a very serious attitude, patience, and above all, consistency.

Now, I ask you, do you think the majority of the gamers in Forza could muster even say 10% of the patience, mental attitude and maturity to master a game like iRacing?

I doubt it very much.

The majority of Forza Motorsport players are very ‘casual’ racers. There’s a number that are just down and out trouble makers and choose games to create havock, simply because they can… You will not usually find them on games like the aforementioned title, as it just requires too much discipline to even get into a proper race.

So where do they end up…?

In Forza of course.

So, bring wise ppl, the developers look at creating a new area a where those individuals can be pure nuts and let loose. They then start turning their main title into something that will eventually attract the serious racer, leaving Horizon to the casual racer and the racers thet simple want to smash through walls or jump creeks etc.

So, what goes the developer do. They work with their parent company, (MS) and start working on a beta version of their main Motorsport game - Apex. Tweaking it, adding features to it that ppl have been asking for in their main title -Forza 6. With the advent of new hardware, the developer works at turning their main title into a game fit for any good racing PCs.

Along comes the new wave of hardware, designed to fit in with the new cross platform software and in due course works towards getting their pride and joy onto hardware that melds a PC and a console. Leaving the ‘fun title’ to the console crowd, and moves their primary, filly featured title towRds great things.

See where things are going…?

It doesn’t take a blind man to see what in the works. Having worked in the gaming media side of things for almost a decade, I can seem where this is heading. It’s been hinted at several times already, but has been lost in amongst the huge media promotional blurbs.

But if one reads between the lines, you can see where Forza Motorsports in heading.

So guys,… Keep those wheel setups, and those high end controllers, because you’ll need them once Forza 7 lands alongside Scorpio in 2017…

OZ

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As OP said he researched sims and decided on Forza. Forza for me provides fun in tuning,painting and hot lapping. Where it falls short is racing. As Oz stated its aimed at mainstream gamers and doesn’t seem to want to alienate them by applying any Motorsport rules. Now for me the lack of rules is a deal breaker. Before Forza a played grid. I can remember trying desperately not to hit the car in front to avoid the loss of power/speed.
Any game that doesn’t apply rules is creating a culture that will enevitably need addressing.
A lot of aspects within Forza are enjoyable as I mentioned. Racing these cars without rules is a shame.

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I agree mate. the first iteration of GRiD was really great actually. But sadly it didn’t sell like Codemasters wanted. I used to visit codices when I had my website, and they were the guys behind the DiRT series, and of course the great V8 Supercars series (TOCA) and their aim was to create a very real style of racing game, yet wanted to appeal to the general masses.

Like they did with V8 SCs and Colin McCray Rally, which eventually turned into DiRT. But, the general gamer went through a generational change. Younger gamers that once would tolerate rules, penalties such as loss of $ if you damAged the car, or if it needed pitting for repairs, etc etc.

The change showed that what was once acceptable, was no longer tolerated by the general gamers that were now buying the bulk of the games. The earlier purchasers had grown up a little, moved into more solid racing games, they still liked the thrill of penalties, loss of funds, having a co-driver, or a team member etc.

But the NEW gamer wanted everything done for them. They wanted INSTANT GRATIFICATION and did not believe they should be penalised for “simply having some fun bashing into ppl” … Sound familiar.

Of course, the next generation of purchasers started to appear, they had already been introduced to weaker built games that ‘gave’ them more rewards for less imput. Developers had changed their modus operandi and catered to those gamers, not the earlier ones that understood the rules of racing like say many in this thread and others that aspire for the return of earlier more riel based gameplay etc.

So GRiD copped a chop In the style department, it (along with other games of similar ilk) went very Arcadey and so did DiRT sadly.Many earlier gamers (now older gamers) bemoaned the fact that the changes hindered a better experience. But the purchasing powers of the new generations had had their impact, and games irrevocably changed, and not girl the better, but for more a easy prays walk in and easy play model took the place of proper racing styles.

Sure, visuals increased, features increased with new power from new console types. Forza changed as well, with the first 2-3 games being more racer friendly, then changed to accomodate the newer and younger generation purchasers. In fact, a huge percentage of purchases were bring made not by the new gamers, but by their parents.

Working in the media arena, I came to make great friends with managers from EB games and the now defunct GAME stores around Australia. Especially at their media night where they would present the recent releases to the various mags and websites who could write up favourable previews.

They also explained that they had to introduce staff training so that they had to always explain to the parents buying games for their children that they had certain content In them. Or that they required supervision etc. and they stated over and over that the parents were the biggest purchasers of games, not the children.

Whereas earlier, it was you and I that purchased our own games. Our parents never even wanted to step insid a gaming store. That’s now completely opposite

So thet too changed the way games were developed. They were aimed at the mass market, they needed to produce dumbed down yet fun versions of their initial games if they wanted to sell the games. After all, they were in business to make profits, not cater to the whims of older customers that were happy to buy one game and play it relentlessly for a year or more.

That is when things really changed, and not nessarily for the better.

However, I really think that we’re about to embark on a very new way of playing games. And we’re embarking on new style of hardware and cross platform-go-anywhere-gaming. We’re getting faster and bigger broadband services in many countries. It’s no longer the minority that have great connections that is required for great online gaming. It’s become the norm.

Sure, many gamers don’t have those broadband services, but the majority are mobile g towards that level.

So games are now designed around that, not lower end connections that the majority once had.

All these changes come at a cost. That being, the loss of purity of the game in question. But, there’s a light at the end of our seemingly shrinking tunnel. Well, I believe there is, and it’s starting to come into the light every month.

If you listen to the interview with Playground Games at E3 that was put up on Forza Hub, you’ll hear the guy mention at the end of the interview that there were some very interesting changes to the main game, ( Forza Motorsports) and that we’ll be really surprised at the changes coming, but he couldn’t expand on that right now or words yo thet effect.

So expect some positive changes to the real game of Forza Motorsports.

OZ

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I certainly hope you’re right Oz and that changes that will make a better experience are coming. Because, like mentionned by Falcon, racing these car …is … a shame. While i do get the commercial aspect of things and the buyers base that they were heading for, i don’t really understand the fact that, whatever the age, 15 or 65, you buy a car, find a nice livery, spend time tuning it or try different tuning by some good tuners and then try to race it … only to have it smashed in the first turn at watkins glen. It doen’t make sense. Well … to me anyway. Even for the casual gamer. Where do the fun lie in smashing everyone, getting smashed and not getting anywhere ? I overemphasize a bit but the point is still valid i think.

I spend most of my forza time hotlapping and trying to beat my time in rivals. That spoked to me. Learning the tracks, finding the best line, trying to find out and learn all of the subtilities of the track that will make the car go faster, trying different cars to see which one reacts better to a given track … that was fun. I know that most of today’s young crowd are probably not looking for that kind of experience. They just want to get in a car and race the hell out of it. I suppose … but we’ve already been there and i get the point :wink:

Speaking of tuning and tuners. I’m really bad at tuning. I’m more interested by racing than spending time tuning and testing. My playing time was a bit restricted also, so i didn’t want to spend like 2 hours tuning and 15 minutes racing. Anyway, the fact is i used the tunes shared by good tuners and i want to thank them for sharing those. Without these tunes it would be a whole different racing gane to me …

Hbr Dean 13 … top 10 spot on homestead and a couple of top 30 and 40 on daytona and indy (Americas)
Hbr Roadhog … same thing …top 40 -50 on daytona and 12 on homestead (Americas)
Lsr Faithless … 63 on indy
Fordrsdan … on daytona
uberundersteer … on homestead
Denisml … on homestead
Froman 5150 … on indy

And many more … these guys don’t get enough credit for their work.

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I am a wheel user, and this is what is possible on the wheel with a road course:

FM6 | Rio | B-Class | Lancia 037 | New Tune - YouTube (Lancia 037)

FM6 | 04 911 GT3 | VIR Grand West - YouTube (Stock 2004 Porsche 911 GT3)

FM6 | Mclaren MP4/4 | VIR Grand West - YouTube (Mclaren MP4/4)

FM6 BMW M4 Nordschleife - YouTube (Stock BMW M4)

FM6 S2000 C class Nordschleife - YouTube (Honda S2000)

FM6 | Lotus E23 | X-Class | Nordschleife - YouTube (Lotus E23)

FM 6 | Nordschleife | Shelby GT350 | Wheel Cam - YouTube (Stock 2016 Shelby GT500 plus Wheel Cam)

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Forza’s FFB is unusual to say the least, but if you start slow and work your way up; it is very possible to compete with the top drivers in the game who are using the control pad. It takes more work to get good with a wheel, as it requires more physical movement and coordination, lots more time and practice. You need to stay loose and relaxed as much as possible, and be smooth. Keep to the lower classes till you get comfortable using the wheel, and then slowly move up; giving yourself ample time to get used to the step up in speed and grip.

I use 900° for the vast majority of road cars, just what I am comfortable with. Between 540° and 720° for the race cars, and 360° for open wheel race cars. I also use ‘Normal Steering’, but I can use Simulation steering also. I just feel that Normal steering is more representative of what I feel while driving a real car, and it compares much better to what I feel in Assetto Corsa, iRacing, and Rfactor 2.

People keep saying “forza is not optimized for a wheel”, but the truth of the matter here; is that the wheel works perfectly fine. It is only the force feedback that isnt great, but when you press the pedals or turn the wheel, you get 1:1 movement.

With regards to the Drivatars, they are not the best thing around; but there is an option in the Drivatar settings to limit aggression. If you do not already have it turned on, then I have to suggest that you give things a go with it. The Drivatars behave better then. The alternative, as Clyde has pointed out, are multiplayer race series, such as TORA. These will give you a clean multiplayer racing environment, and should provide far less frustration to the public hoppers and leagues. They are always worth trying out.

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Mate, I agree with a huge amount of what you’ve had to say.

I think the issue with playing Forza Motosports, other than Horizon, is that we can do the purchase, tune, paint, enjoy visuals via Vista etc or rely on a great community of both Painters and Tunners.

Especially those you’ve pointed out, is that once we do step online, we are barraged with an onslaught of less than bright individual racers (cough cough splutter) decide that they have the right of way, that they have the privilege to be first.

And that’s certainly NOT you or anyone outside their immediate band of racing brethren that team up to cause nothing but havock.

While I could end up with a huge number saying I’m pigeonholing ppl, but most of those ppl are within an age group that have no respect for anyone other than themselves. So we end up with a race that’s really a poor excuse for dodgem cars rather that racing.

There are those in that ‘Wreckers’ cater gory that are older drivers, but wreckers are not in the game for the game. They are there to cause disruption in whatever way they can. And as you rightfully asked… Why… There is no simple answer sadly, as they just do it because they can. There’s NO RESTRICTION that would have them penalised, black banned, removed, given 3 warnings then banned outright.

Without such things, they’ll continue to be the pests that they are. So games like iRacing, PC Cars, any of the online racing leagues, or clubs. As they wouldn’t even be allowed in. Their methods would be watched and disalpinedisapline for any mucking around. So they generally stay clear of those games.

The reason I think we could be in for a 'sea-change is, that if we look at Apex, we can see various things being implemented that have appeared on the Forza6/7 wish lists. And one has to ask, why do we have apex in the first place.

Then there’s the very well hidden comments in some media online interviews around Forza, Apex and even Horizon.

Then there’s the fact that now both Apex and Forza run a basic software OS that supports both on any platform. Forza Hub runs off the same engine, allowing us to view and navigate, respond and work within it on either mobile devices, PCs and of course,Xbox 360 to project Scorpio.

We’ve had hints that Scorpio will herald in a new way of playing the game. So what’s going to happen to Apex… Hmmmm Will it be the inroads towards slipping gamers to play Forza Motorsports on both platforms seamlessly and ditch the current mode of playing our primary game of choice.

The next round of machines are working towards digital gaming as the primary mode of gaming. Digital storage is increasing our hdds and the need to have all our saves only stored on the cloud, lends more credence to us being forced into buying digital copies.

Scorpions release window fits in with the usual Forza Motorsports window as well, and the fact that Turn 10 have used the release of new hardware to launch their games alongside the hardware, getting a double dose of advertising, which is a great way of releasing a game, especially if it’s primarily digital. As retailers can’t make money from digital game like they can disc based.

I think we’re in for a different way of playing thus title. Which Gould be a good thing, as its putting the game on the same level as proper PC gaming rather than casual console gaming.

What’d your thoughts…
.
OZ

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If you believe that the likes of iRacing are free from wreckers, think again:

The fact of the matter here, is that wreckers are in any and all racing games that give the ability to race online; even in the likes of iRacing. It isnt just an issue with Forza, and in all seriousness; people need to cut T10 a little slack on this matter. At the core of things, wreckers are not their fault. Even if T10 implemented a system similar to what iRacing use, or say the penalty system from Pcars or the codemaster F1 games; there would still be wreckers to ruin the racing. Wreckers do not care if they get kicked from a race, they most likely do not even care if they get banned from the game completely. They wreck for only one reason, because they want too.

Back when games first started having online multiplayer, there used to be warnings such as this: “WARNING: Game experience my change online”.

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That’s quite true, I remember those warnings. Sad fact is there’s always an element I every form of entertainment that there’s those who’s idea of entertainment is wrecking everyone else’s.

Just yesterday into our local news, there was a huge altercation at a young mans birthday party where over 100 youths gate crashed his party, simply b cause someone mistakenly posted a few pics of his party on Facebook to one of her friends. Within an hour, over 100 drunken youths crashed the party, stabbing the young man who was just 16 or so.

All from the online ability that is ‘social media’… It’s an infection that’s spoiling not,al pols lives, and in this case, (yours and mine) - our gaming experience.

OZ